Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Giggsy PO said:
But in no way it is official Israeli governmental policy with enough political capital behind it.
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“No Palestinian state” has been the policy of every Israeli government elected since 2009, perhaps with an asterisk beside the short-lived Bennett-Lapid government. The last time an Israeli government was elected with a mandate to pursue negotiations leading to a Palestinian state was 1999.
 
2cents said:
“No Palestinian state” has been the policy of every Israeli government elected since 2009, perhaps with an asterisk beside the short-lived Bennett-Lapid government. The last time an Israeli government was elected with a mandate to pursue negotiations leading to a Palestinian state was 1999.
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It is a quite different conversation to say "No Palestinian state" and "Let's make it all Israel".
 
Giggsy PO said:
The problem is that one of these fringe opinions took action on October 7 and performed the biggest attack on Jews since the Holocaust.
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No a terrorist group took action on October 7th.

Anyway enough engaging the troll today for me.
 
The Israeli guidebook on how to respond to accusations is a pretty predictable one.

Its a genocide -----> How can it be a genocide if 'only' 36,000 people are dead. If it were a genocide they would have killed a million by now (Because its numbers that determine whether the threshold for genocidal intent has been crossed).

Its ethnic cleansing ----> How can it be ethnic cleansing if the Palestinians were told explicitly of safe places to go (which get bombed anyway).

Its collective punishment -----> No, we're only targeting Hamas and will stop the moment the hostages are released (yet they haven't stopped relentlessly targeting schools, hospitals, mosques, churches or refugee camps, and have rejected pretty much every ceasefire deal on the table).

Its an occupation ----> Its not an occupation because West Bank once belonged to Jordan, and besides it can't be an occupation since its territory we've taken in wars always started by the Arabs (also not true).

Its apartheid -----> How can it be Apartheid if Arabs are citizens and allowed to vote in Knesset elections (never mind laws passed to increase the threshold required for minority parties to be represented in the Knesset, adversely affecting Arabs above all, as well as the fact that any Jewish person on the planet can claim citizenship, but not any native Palestinian Arab cleansed during the Nakba).

The Israelis aren't interested in a two state solution - But we offered the Palestinians numerous deals which they rejected! (Ignoring the absurd stipulations placed on such 'deals', essentially depriving them of any real autonomy in deals which the Israelis themselves admit they'd never accept in the reverse scenario).

The student protests should be respected - Why should we allow such hotbeds of anti-semitism to fester?! (Ignoring the fact that these protests have been a diverse amalgamation of many Jewish activists and scholars).
 
For the record, the ICJ is different from the ICC. They are not the same organization.

 


ICJ is moving on with the case: punish Palestinians more by getting your allies to stop funding UNRWA with bogus accusations.
ICJ orders halting operations in Rafa: increase the bombing and escalate your genocide.
 
Giggsy PO said:
Yes, that was incredibly stupid stunt from Bibi. Completely unnecessary provocation. It didn't help Israel at all. You can find similar pictures of Abbas holding the same map, handing out scarves and little mock ups without Israel. I guess we don't have to talk about Hamas. I see it as mutual provocation. You can argue that Israeli PM holds much more power than Palestinian counterparts, what is true of course. But in no way it is official Israeli governmental policy with enough political capital behind it. Smotrich and Gvir say stupid shit time from time, but it is about it, for now.

In context of current events when you hold sign with that map and words "any means necessary" that means only one thing - Palestine will be Jew free. On the other hand, there are 2 million Arabs living in Israel relatively good life. You can agree/disagree what that good life stands for. But can you name one Arab/Muslim country where Jews live as minority? Not even good life. Just where they live. Only one. Can you? Jews have nowhere else to go.
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Thanks for answering me

Lets go for parts:

What do you mean they don't have nowhere else to go. Don't the jews live a veeeeery comfortable life in US, in any country in Europe? Latin america? If there is any living in Asia? And as far as I know they have as little problems to live in muslim countries than christians in muslim countries. What are you talking about? 100 years ago? in todays present, they have 0 problems in western countries.

Lets entertain the ide a that jews needs a country to feel safe. Should we do a Nakhba in khursdistan and kill one million of turks and Iraqis and displace a few millions more? should we bomb the shit out of china till the Uighurs and Tibetans can have its own state? should we do the same with canada and US and have a two state solution (or the whole state) for the first nations? Should we kill any civilian and displace them in the millions because others suffered?

So basically, you are arguing that as jews were persecuted and killed, they have the right to persecute and kill palestinians

And yes, any "means necessary" is a disgraceful sentence. But is crazy to me that you mount a whole argument on indignation for this sentence from anonymous people but you wave Netanyahu as unnecesary provocation and that is official government policy when you see what is happening now, the words of the minister of defense saying that are human animals and the rhetoric that we had been hearing? how you can deny the obvious when Israel excuses US words of the two state solutions saying that "they don't mean it and is just PR" (I believe them wholeheartly). How you can criticize the "any means necessary" when you have the mayor of Jerusalem to burying them ALIVE! so not even just kill them, but make them suffer. And like that many other officials. not random people. Officials that holds power. Soldiers than are deployed making this comments. Once random protests of anonymous vs officials saying much more things and most important, acting on it massacring palestinians on the tens of thousands while also anonymous israelis holds and attacks aid convoys implementing in real life the "any means necessary". How you can't see you own hiporcisy in your arguments?

The 2 million arabs that are living in Israel relatively good life? tell the ones that are being killed in east jerusalem or the one that are afraid so to happen. Tell the ones that are kicked of their homes for settlers. Tell the ones that if they get married with a palestinian, their partner don't get citizenship and an american jew flying to Israel get automatic passport. Among other disparities. Is called Apartheid. I guess civil rights shouldn't be implemented in the 60's after all black people lived a good life. I am sure white racist people were saying that and trying to agree/disagree on what a good life stands for

Arab country with minority jews? Iran and turkey comes to mind. Not as much as before? yes. But there still and not killed and guess what officially have the same rights in there, not like arabs in Israel and certainly are not being killed or kicked out in the name of settling
 
Has the ICJ ever issued such an order before in the midst of other military operations does anyone know?
 
4bars said:
Thanks for answering me

Lets go for parts:

What do you mean they don't have nowhere else to go. Don't the jews live a veeeeery comfortable life in US, in any country in Europe? Latin america? If there is any living in Asia? And as far as I know they have as little problems to live in muslim countries than christians in muslim countries. What are you talking about? 100 years ago? in todays present, they have 0 problems in western countries.

Lets entertain the ide a that jews needs a country to feel safe. Should we do a Nakhba in khursdistan and kill one million of turks and Iraqis and displace a few millions more? should we bomb the shit out of china till the Uighurs and Tibetans can have its own state? should we do the same with canada and US and have a two state solution (or the whole state) for the first nations? Should we kill any civilian and displace them in the millions because others suffered?

So basically, you are arguing that as jews were persecuted and killed, they have the right to persecute and kill palestinians

And yes, any "means necessary" is a disgraceful sentence. But is crazy to me that you mount a whole argument on indignation for this sentence from anonymous people but you wave Netanyahu as unnecesary provocation and that is official government policy when you see what is happening now, the words of the minister of defense saying that are human animals and the rhetoric that we had been hearing? how you can deny the obvious when Israel excuses US words of the two state solutions saying that "they don't mean it and is just PR" (I believe them wholeheartly). How you can criticize the "any means necessary" when you have the mayor of Jerusalem to burying them ALIVE! so not even just kill them, but make them suffer. And like that many other officials. not random people. Officials that holds power. Soldiers than are deployed making this comments. Once random protests of anonymous vs officials saying much more things and most important, acting on it massacring palestinians on the tens of thousands while also anonymous israelis holds and attacks aid convoys implementing in real life the "any means necessary". How you can't see you own hiporcisy in your arguments?

The 2 million arabs that are living in Israel relatively good life? tell the ones that are being killed in east jerusalem or the one that are afraid so to happen. Tell the ones that are kicked of their homes for settlers. Tell the ones that if they get married with a palestinian, their partner don't get citizenship and an american jew flying to Israel get automatic passport. Among other disparities. Is called Apartheid. I guess civil rights shouldn't be implemented in the 60's after all black people lived a good life. I am sure white racist people were saying that and trying to agree/disagree on what a good life stands for

Arab country with minority jews? Iran and turkey comes to mind. Not as much as before? yes. But there still and not killed and guess what officially have the same rights in there, not like arabs in Israel and certainly are not being killed or kicked out in the name of settling
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Let's invade India and carve out a nation state for all the dispossessed Romani gypsies.
 


Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs

In response to Spain's recognition of a Palestinian state and the antisemitic call by Spain's Deputy Prime Minister to not just recognize a Palestinian state but to 'liberate Palestine from the river to the sea,' I have decided to sever the connection between Spain's representation in Israel and the Palestinians, and to prohibit the Spanish consulate in Jerusalem from providing services to Palestinians from the West Bank. If this ignorant, hate-filled individual wants to understand what radical Islam truly seeks, she should study the 700 years of Islamic rule in Al-Andalus—today's Spain.
 
Idxomer said:


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That only demostrate something that we already knew, the ICJ have shit power to implement anything. "the ICJ rules are binding" is like "UN ceasefire resolution is binding" and later on the US said is not. Who is going to enforce the resolution? Israel politicians? US, EU? They can't even make sanctions to Russia properly. Gazans are doomed.

That is why in any healthy rule of law you have legislative, judicial and executive (we all know that there is a very unhealthy relationship between the three). The first 2 are very easy. I can do that myself with my friends in my basement. The executive is what maters and the ICC, ICJ and the UN executive powers are basically the West and most prominent the US, and if these executive powers are against the judicial decisions, they will not enforce it

The international law is a pantomime and as I read here, is only for Africa and to project fake western morals an values that had only been there to suite the narrative of democracy and how superior the west is
 
RedTiger said:
Let's invade India and carve out a nation state for all the dispossessed Romani gypsies.
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I don't understand the jews privilege in historical grievances. There are many others and not for that reason other people that has nothing to do with them deserves to die and their land stolen
 
berbatrick said:


Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs

In response to Spain's recognition of a Palestinian state and the antisemitic call by Spain's Deputy Prime Minister to not just recognize a Palestinian state but to 'liberate Palestine from the river to the sea,' I have decided to sever the connection between Spain's representation in Israel and the Palestinians, and to prohibit the Spanish consulate in Jerusalem from providing services to Palestinians from the West Bank. If this ignorant, hate-filled individual wants to understand what radical Islam truly seeks, she should study the 700 years of Islamic rule in Al-Andalus—today's Spain.
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A country of 10 million people keeps threatening the world. It’s Biden’s fault for allowing this to happen.

These countries have a long ago recognized Israel and built long-term relationships with it, yet Israel doesn’t want them to think for themselves. If that’s what Israel wants, these countries should choose to cut ties. Spain will survive without Israel; Ireland and Norway too.
 
The way it has been going this week for Israel, and if Israel plows ahead in Rafah and the US vetos any UNSC resolution to implement the ICJ ruling, is there any possibility that some Western states could sanction Israel?
 
Super Hans said:
The way it has been going this week for Israel, and if Israel plows ahead in Rafah and the US vetos any UNSC resolution to implement the ICJ ruling, is there any possibility that some Western states could sanction Israel?
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They wouldn't have any tangible effect on Israel going in. The only thing that would stop it would be for the Israeli government themselves stopping because of a highly improbable hostage deal.
 
Raoul said:
They wouldn't have any tangible effect on Israel going in. The only thing that would stop it would be for the Israeli government themselves stopping because of a highly improbable hostage deal.
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I understand that sanctions wouldn't stop the attack, I'm more thinking states may feel compelled to act in the face of Israeli defiance of the ICJ order.
 
Super Hans said:
The way it has been going this week for Israel, and if Israel plows ahead in Rafah and the US vetos any UNSC resolution to implement the ICJ ruling, is there any possibility that some Western states could sanction Israel?
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The US vetoing an ICJ motion at the security council would be something else. It places them firmly in the same camp as Putin protecting despots like Assad, or the Chinese strong arming Korea. Puts to bed this ridiculous notion of a supposed rules based international order.
 
Super Hans said:
The way it has been going this week for Israel, and if Israel plows ahead in Rafah and the US vetos any UNSC resolution to implement the ICJ ruling, is there any possibility that some Western states could sanction Israel?
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No. As long as the US are behind them, the rest of the West will do as the master says and there's nothing that can be done right now.

However the international pressure is mounting to a level never seen before. Israel chose the "us against the world" path and is now on full car crash mode, abandoning any pretense of legality, pouring oil on the fire instead of trying to put it out. It's now a pariah state, the US is looking like a mafia mob and the Corpse is looking over his shoulder with the Orange Madman breathing down his neck.

Let's see if the US accepts to be dragged into historic infamy or has a brief moment of lucidity.
 
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