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berbatrick said:


Einat Wilf, former labor MK, now has abandoned her hippy past and grown up:





I agree with her on one thing - Hamas does represent a large swathe of Palestinians. As for the rest, not just does that justify Oct 7, it would justify nuking Tel Aviv too. But a good reminder that opposition to Bibi in Israel means many different things!
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Biden let them destroy Gaza, and she’s complaining?! Biden could’ve sent American troops to fight alongside Israel, and they would still complain about him. They want Trump. Ungrateful people!

As for the opposition to Bibi: part of it is personal, part of it because of his legal troubles, part of it because of domestic issues. But, when it comes to Gaza/Palestinians, there is no real opposition.
 
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Right, without a response from him, I'll just say that I wholeheartedly agree with the point he was making with the historical example of the persecution of Jewish students and staff and the parallel it has with the current persecution of Palestine-supporting students and staff.

Excellent point @Giggsy PO, very astute.
 


It's not just a genocide, it's a holocaust and it has been this way for months.
 
The images can not be shared here.

Edit, I do not recommend watching the images, absolutely horrific. The Israeli state is a stain in the history of mankind.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
As for the opposition to Bibi: part of it is personal, part of it because of his legal troubles, part of it because of domestic issues. But, when it comes to Gaza/Palestinians, there is no real opposition.
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I would not argue about what's the root of people's problems with Netanyahu.

However, Wilf admits that her opinions changed as she lost belief in the Palestenians. Obviously the problem is not on one side, and Israel have to take a big part of the blame, but the Palestenians should also look in the mirror and ask why a devoted lefty like her lost faith in them and their intentions.
 
I've seen some of the videos from Rafah just now and honestly it's the worst I've seen.

What do you say or do at this point?
 
Amir said:
I would not argue about what's the root of people's problems with Netanyahu.

However, Wilf admits that her opinions changed as she lost belief in the Palestenians. Obviously the problem is not on one side, and Israel have to take a big part of the blame, but the Palestenians should also look in the mirror and ask why a devoted lefty like her lost faith in them and their intentions.
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She was in Labor about 12 years ago. From then till Oct 7 2023, Israel has killed about 3,500 Palestinians and Palestinians have killed about <100 Israelis. Since Oct 7 2023, Palestinians have killed about 1,500 Israelis and Israel has killed about 35,000 (and probably more) Palestinians.
In that time, Israel has also re-elected Bibi 5 times, and have expanded settlements I don't know how many times. In that time, Hamas has re-written their charter, while Bibi has shown the map of Eretz Israel at the UN, and declared openly many times that he won't allow a Palestinian state.

I'm not even getting into 1948 or whatever, not even needed here. Just what happened between her lefty phase, and her new phase where she speaks like Kahane. I have no reason to doubt she was sincere then and she is sincere now. And I think the fact that she made this transition during this time (and many others have made this same transition), tells me a lot about Israeli society!
 
They have absolutely lost their minds. I think they can only be stopped by force at this point, as they're all in on the genocide.
 
The clips coming out of this latest attack are extremely horrific. Really curious how the Biden administration responds to this.
 
VorZakone said:
The clips coming out of this latest attack are extremely horrific. Really curious how the Biden administration responds to this.
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They will show extreme concern and will have a word with the israelis. Then they will give them more bombs.
 
VorZakone said:
The clips coming out of this latest attack are extremely horrific. Really curious how the Biden administration responds to this.
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They will do nothing. It passed genocide and ethnic cleansing months ago and Biden's support to Israel is Ironclad.
 
Giggsy PO said:
The problem is that one of these fringe opinions took action on October 7 and performed the biggest attack on Jews since the Holocaust.
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Whereas a global orthodox opinion is why we are seeing Israel being given weapons by the worlds superpowers and using them to ethnic cleanse the Palestinians.
 
Surely there has to be a point where the camel's back is broken?
How long can Biden defend this madness?
How many more incidents like this one do they want?

There just has to be a imit to the "opps we did it again" shtick that the Israeli governemn/army can come up with.
 
Absolute scumbags. If i express my true thoughts on what should happen to the politicians in this country who have been justifying these slaughters, the police would be paying me a visit.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Surely there has to be a point where the camel's back is broken?
How long can Biden defend this madness?
How many more incidents like this one do they want?

There just has to be a imit to the "opps we did it again" shtick that the Israeli governemn/army can come up with.
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There was an interview with one of the people who resigned from the State Dept. She said the policy on Israel is being run directly from the White House: Biden himself, with an assistant named Brett McGurk, and Jake Sullivan (national security advisor).
Even Blinken, Secretary of State, is not in the loop - this person who resigned said that Blinken sometimes hears news from Jake Sullivan's brother who works in the State Dept.

Basically means that this is something Biden personally wants, not something his advisors are telling him to do.

e - interview is may 16 link here
 
berbatrick said:
There was an interview with one of the people who resigned from the State Dept. She said the policy on Israel is being run directly from the White House: Biden himself, with an assistant named Brett McGurk, and Jake Sullivan (national security advisor).
Even Blinken, Secretary of State, is not in the loop - this person who resigned said that Blinken sometimes hears news from Jake Sullivan's brother who works in the State Dept.

Basically means that this is something Biden personally wants, not something his advisors are telling him to do.
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I doubt that. Blinken and Sullivan have completely different roles and both will be in regular contact with Biden.
 
I suspect that a couple of years from now, if anything is left from this region of earth,
it will be almost/very much illeagal to write the things I write here as an Israeli with an anonimous identity.
The state will probably use your google searches to turn you into "a traitor".

I wonder where I'll eventually move to.
It's very obvious where things are going, and from the outside it's easier to see the tiny steps it takes for a seemingly democratic state to turn into Putin's Russia.
From the inside it's much harder to notice the net closing in on you.

so yeah, this sucks also for people on our side of the fence who have basic human morals.
It's better off being someone who can't sleep and sits at 3 am with his laptop on his bed writing all this,
than being someone in Rafah right now.

But in fantasy land I just want to be neither.
 
Giggsy PO said:
There is no surprise you have zero awareness and empathy to rise of antisemitism around the world. To you it is just a phrase which is used by Zionist to brush of any criticism of Israel. And any report about it you will dismiss as propaganda.


Lets entertain idea we will not make made up premises based on absurd arguments. Nobody is arguing what you said. Nakba happened as a result of war started by Arabs, which they lost. Funny you didnt bother to provide historical examples when loosing side of war lost territory. And lets not forget ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Arab world as consequence.


Any means necessary is not a disgraceful sentence but principle implemented in real life on October 7 by people that hold power. The scope of attack was only limited by their current power. And "random people" celebrated October 7 as big victory only a few days later.


Yeah, comes to mind? You googled that and used first source from wikipedia. You are not very familiar with the issue I guess. Otherwise you would never list Iran as Arab country. If it was just a negligence type of mistake, I apologize. Israeli society is far for perfect, it has it problems. As any society does. What is funny how you describe its shortcommings in great detail but vice versa you only generally state Jews have officially the same rights. That made me chuckle. And "not as much before" you simply say yes. How much is enough for you to be concerned about it? Jewish population in Arab countries diminished to the level of statistical error. While population of 48 Arabs in Israel increased by 1200 %. Did you ever ponder why?
arabmigrantt.png
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Lets lay the baselines, Antisemitism had exist and still exist, also Islamophobia, and any religious phobias throughout history, the same with racism, xenophobia, misogyny and many other power abuse for the sake of being different because we are a shit species.

Now why do you think there is raise in antisemitism? What the feck it can be happening for people without critical thinking to not like jews or even hate them? what do you think is happening in the world? it came for nothing? Maybe a tiny tiny genocide is going on?

And yes, it came to mind. Iran because I always found crazy that there is still jews in that regime and turkey because is the most secular and it make sense. You know is not that crazy not to go to google if you are interested in world politics. But maybe for you is being is impressive. That is your problem if you can't retain information and need to google everything. And the negligence comes that I conflated my answer on your own question that you said muslim/arab countries and as far as I know, iran is muslim. Then, let circle back and close the loop. I wonder again what could happen in 1947-48 in the world for arab/muslim countries to hate jews and not being welcome in their countries. Some of the countries that welcomed jews during the holocaust suddenly they want to kick them out a few years later. Let me me think....hmmm what could be happening during 1947-48, certain resolution...help me here...Nakba killing thousands and displace hundreds of thousands? Maybe that?

Not that is justified AT ALL, but if you go around killing, massacring, displacing people I don't think that you will be very welcome in many palces that knows what is going on, and hence the raise of antisemitism that nowadays is NOTHING compared with islamophobia

And Nakba didn't start as a result of a war that started the arabs, it started from a resolution, from white guys from europe and US, giving land to europen jews that werent mostly not born there by the face, stealing land to the indigenous people that lived there by generations. Try that in any other country and see what happens. Sure they would let them steal their land, isn't it?

For any means necessary is not what happens with Hamas. for any means necessary is Nakba, is Settlements. Is snipping kids, is creating Hamas and use it, fund it and a llow October 7th to happen to jsutify what is happing now, a genocide

Saying that Israel is far from perfect, seing how they kill their population for the sake of being arabs, treating them different legally for the sake of being arab is not far from perfect. Is fecking apartheid and a terrorist state
 
maniak said:
They have absolutely lost their minds. I think they can only be stopped by force at this point, as they're all in on the genocide.
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This has been crystal clear for fecking months, I said it months ago and some thought I was being ridiculous.
 
Giggsyking said:
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Is that conceptually a strange thing to write down? Not sure I understand. I can think of quite a few situations where killing children would be the moral good. Underage suicide bomber running towards a kindgarten, as a simple example.

Really feels like if people are finding reasons like that to attack The Atlantic of all sources (who have done excellent anti-Israeli coverage for months now) then they should be focussed on more pressing targets.
 
The author is not making a "conceptual" argument, the author is arguing that Israel is killing children for morally good reasons and they simply have a PR problem.
 
Beachryan said:
Is that conceptually a strange thing to write down? Not sure I understand. I can think of quite a few situations where killing children would be the moral good. Underage suicide bomber running towards a kindgarten, as a simple example.

Really feels like if people are finding reasons like that to attack The Atlantic of all sources (who have done excellent anti-Israeli coverage for months now) then they should be focussed on more pressing targets.
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I don't know what the full article is saying to be honest so can't fully comment on what the exact message is supposed to be but really? You can't see the problematic nature of legally justifying the killing of children, during an ongoing conflict where there is, at the very least debate about whether a genocide is onging, being militarily and diplomatically covered by the country the Atlantic is based in?

For me, to help emphasise the awful dehumanisation of Palestinians and the difference in rhetoric between the two, I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.

Of course though they would't write this and there would be widespread revulsion if they did. There is a pretty awful double standard here and the reality is that Palestinian lives mean almost nothing to most.
 
africanspur said:
I don't know what the full article is saying to be honest so can't fully comment on what the exact message is supposed to be but really? You can't see the problematic nature of legally justifying the killing of children, during an ongoing conflict where there is, at the very least debate about whether a genocide is onging, being militarily and diplomatically covered by the country the Atlantic is based in?

For me, to help emphasise the awful dehumanisation of Palestinians and the difference in rhetoric between the two, I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.

Of course though they would't write this and there would be widespread revulsion if they did. There is a pretty awful double standard here and the reality is that Palestinian lives mean almost nothing to most.
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Look at the example he used to support his ridiculous argument. You'll understand everything,
 
africanspur said:
I would think about whether the Atlantic would ever write an article about whether Palestinians have the moral or legal right to strike back against the people occupying them. And whether there is really much of a distinction between civilian and military in a country where military service is essentially compulsory for the overwhelming majority.
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Considering their editor-in-chief is a former IDF prison guard I'm gonna guess "no."
 
It's just pathetic mental gymnastics, nobody buys this shite anymore.
 
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