Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

berbatrick said:
Israel is just like any other proxy state really, nothing more to it than a superpower-client relationship. Just another South Vietnam situation basically.

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Nothing new here to be fair, the USA has been blackmailing countries about Israel literally from the very first blackmail for the resolution about partitioning the land.
 
berbatrick said:
And there were massacres by the South Vietnamese equal in scale.

Given the circumstances around its discovery, it is very probably the My Lai was indeed the tip of the iceberg in terms of US crimes. I'm from a country which has an active Communist insurgency - don't have to dig too deep to understand what happens when, for example, "a village is freed from Communist control and 18 insurgents eliminated." This was just last week. Not going to include extremely grisly stuff that came out some years ago when the press clampdown in Naxal areas was less absolute, and the pattern is almost always the same: triumphant release that terrorists were eliminated, a week later, locals dispute that characterisation.

The initial publicity about My Lai was exactly the same, with public congratulation for the perpetrators for eliminating VC. The difference was the heroism of one man. It is very logical that there were other incidents that will not be known.

The US won the Cold War. It "won" the Vietnam war - the dominoes stopped falling, while it simultaneously helped Indonesia liberate itself from Communism at the cost of 3 million lives. Scrutiny from anonymous people online is a small price for ruling the world.
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I agree with everything you've said, and I agree the Vietnam war was just a mud flinging of who could do the most fecked up stuff. (This is why, broadly speaking, I'm very anti draft/conscription.)

But ultimately, that still doesn't change the fact that the average person holds the West to a far higher standard than others?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
I agree with everything you've said, and I agree the Vietnam war was just a mud flinging of who could do the most fecked up stuff. (This is why, broadly speaking, I'm very anti draft/conscription.)

But ultimately, that still doesn't change the fact that the average person holds the West to a far higher standard than others?
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Isn't that simply because they claim to be far above other nations in matters of morality and other things attached?

To bring it back to Gaza, It does seem that the main problem for Western leaders with the ICC seeking warrants for both Sinwar and Netanyahu is some equivalence the court didn't really draw between both parties. If they keep making a big deal about their values and democracy, they should expect at least to be held to a higher standard.
 


Remember that a big part of the "limited" Rafah operation is seizing the border and stopping aid from coming in.
 
I can't believe this is still going on.

The Western moral authority is well and truly down the drain.
 
Sweet Square said:


They have gone completely insane.
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I really thank God Trump is not president every God damned day.

Otherwise we'd have crazy situations like the Americans threatening to defund the UN if the Palestinians get a state, sanctioning the ICC and seemingly agreeing to the Rafah invasion.
 
africanspur said:
I really thank God Trump is not president every God damned day.

Otherwise we'd have crazy situations like the Americans threatening to defund the UN if the Palestinians get a state, sanctioning the ICC and seemingly agreeing to the Rafah invasion.
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They have lost their minds.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
The Western World, broadly speaking, treats "War crimes" better than most when conducted by it's own officers.

The exemption to this is when its related to sensitive, black-operations where any court-trial could reveal this. For example, undercover military in Northern Ireland during the troubles, US special forces in the middle east, SAS operations etc. What usually happens here is the soldier(s) in question are quietly dismissed and told to shut up.

The world, none NATO/Western Bloc etc also holds the West (probably rightfully so) to a much higher standard (I'm not including Israel in this) when it comes to the criteria of who should be put in front of the ICJ/ICC, so it causes military brass to get irritated when people start clamoring the US president to put in front of the Hague for a mis-calculated drone strike when nobody cares about massacres across the whole that happen every few years.
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Trump pardons Blackwater contractors jailed for massacre of Iraq civilians
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ractors-jailed-for-massacre-of-iraq-civilians

Can you please spare us some western value lectures. We are sick of it.
 
Giggsyking said:
Trump pardons Blackwater contractors jailed for massacre of Iraq civilians
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ractors-jailed-for-massacre-of-iraq-civilians

Can you please spare us some western value lectures. We are sick of it.
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see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”
 
AfonsoAlves said:
see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”
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Who says people don't care when it's non western peeps?

And who is the 'they' in your final sentence?
 
AfonsoAlves said:
see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”
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You were building a case for the west sitting on a higher standard than the likes of authoritarian regimes. The reality is you are wrong and your statement is perceived as hypocritical, theatrical courts followed by pardons for people responsible for one of the worst worst massacres in the Iraqi invasion is simple example of the contradiction of morality with the word western values.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
see this is exactly what I mean.

this kind of stuff is spread and it’s the right thing to do. But the same people who find this horrifying do not care when it’s non western perps.
This is what rubs military leadership the wrong way and that resentment leads to pushes to make a pretty morally bad judgement of “well if they don’t do anything to them we will not care either”
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Yeah … everyone is famously quiet when putin poisons yet another dissident. putin, xi, that Iranian bloke are all rightfully called assholes - but somehow you have an issue on applying that same standard to the west?
 
Agree with most comments here. We know the US are insane, and that they are on the wrong side of history.
The question is when will they sit up and realise this?when will the penny drop?

At this juncture, it seems they are oblivious to world opinion and I can’t see them changing, which is incredibly frustrating and disheartening, because it seems things will only get better for the Palestinians and in the Middle East as a whole, when the US has fundamentally changed its colonialist foreign policy and ‘ironclad’ support for Israel.

Someone please give this spiralling middle aged man some positivity and hope.
 
So that letter of senators menacing the ICC was not a fringe radical boast of some stupid senators. 1 day later, the POTUS and other relevant politicians seems to be on board?

It is utter insanity

US showing that they don't care about morality, international law, status quote...They are just a fecking bully and the world will do what they say on good terms or bad terms. Blackmailing their favourite tool
 
Giggsyking said:
The only democracy in the middle east.
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It’s so cute to hear the “leader” of the Israeli “opposition” concerned. I heard nothing from him, until bothering the AP. Now he can go back to sleep for few more months.
 
It's not just that the US favours Israeli might, brutality and oppression over Palestinian dignity that could be its undoing, it's that they favour Israeli might, brutality and oppression over their very own citizens. Both the citizens being attacked for protesting peacefully and the US citizens who have been killed by the Israeli state - including journalists, charity workers, activists.
 
dumbo said:
It's not just that the US favours Israeli might, brutality and oppression over Palestinian dignity that could be its undoing, it's that they favour Israeli might, brutality and oppression over their very own citizens. Both the citizens being attacked for protesting peacefully and the US citizens who have been killed by the Israeli state - including journalists, charity workers, activists.
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A complete and utter disaster by this administration. They could’ve supported Israel against these Hamas terrorists but with clear red lines when it comes to the civilian population. Instead, they allowed it to do whatever it wanted.
 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Corridor

Separating Gaza into Bantustans and removing Hamas and replacing it with tribal clans seems like an achievable goal for Israel over the next 6-12 months of war. With no prospect for help from abroad, I hope the fighters of the ghetto miraculously spill enough IDF blood to foil this plan.
 
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