Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[nimic]

The US isn't a signatory to the ICC's founding statute and has previously said it has no jurisdiction in the states. Also, I would seriously doubt any NATO or EU country would comply with an arrest warrant for an Israeli leader given that Israel is a close ally to most large EU nations. That said, I wouldn't exactly book a safari to Kruger if I was Bibi.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The Norwegian foreign minister has confirmed that Norway is obligated to carry out any arrest warrants issued by the ICC. France and several other countries have also issued statements.

"France supports the International Criminal Court, its independence and the fight against impunity in all situations", the foreign ministry said in a statement late on Monday.

Now, that's not exactly the same as saying "we'll arrest the prime minister of Israel if he comes here", but it's a far cry from the dismissive American statements. Of course, as yet there aren't actually any arrest warrants.

 

[Raoul]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The Norwegian foreign minister has confirmed that Norway is obligated to carry out any arrest warrants issued by the ICC. France and several other countries have also issued statements.



Now, that's not exactly the same as saying "we'll arrest the prime minister of Israel if he comes here", but it's a far cry from the dismissive American statements.

They pretty much have to say that since they're not taking the US position of wanting to go after the ICC. But if they were realistically presented with the situation, political pressure would be to not do anything. That's for European/NATO states only since they are tightly allied with the US.

 

[nimic]

They pretty much have to say that since they're not taking the US position of wanting to go after the ICC. But if they were realistically presented with the situation, political pressure would be to not do anything. That's for European/NATO states only since they are tightly allied with the US.

I guess I just don't agree with that conclusion. I don't think anyone is going to try to trick Netanyahu to come to Norway and then arrest him, but if he somehow did come here we absolutely would arrest him. But he wouldn't come here. Because we would arrest him.

It's basically one of those.

 

[Bert_]

They pretty much have to say that since they're not taking the US position of wanting to go after the ICC. But if they were realistically presented with the situation, political pressure would be to not do anything. That's for European/NATO states only since they are tightly allied with the US.

Realistically, he just won't travel to any EU country to avoid the situation altogether.

 

[Denis79]

I guess I just don't agree with that conclusion. I don't think anyone is going to try to trick Netanyahu to come to Norway and then arrest him, but if he somehow did come here we absolutely would arrest him. But he wouldn't come here. Because we would arrest him.

It's basically one of those.

Many European countries will abide by the ICC ruling, especially in Scandinavia. He will just avoid those countries, but atleast he will be branded and treated as the criminal he is.

 

[Raoul]

Realistically, he just won't travel to any EU country to avoid the situation altogether.

Agreed. He has no reason to travel while the war is ongoing, and will be tied up in domestic legal cases once its over. He could come to the US to address Congress as some have suggested, but that's looking increasingly unlikely at this point.

 

[Smores]

Many European countries will abide by the ICC ruling, especially in Scandinavia. He will just avoid those countries, but atleast he will be branded and treated as the criminal he is.

Most EU countries would comply with it, UK and Germany are probably amongst a minority that wouldn't act. The US doesn't have as much influence as it thinks it does, we've seen how often their attempts have failed at the UN.

Hopefully he's arrogant enough to actually put it to the test. Even the US would happily be rid of Netanyahu, if they could orchestrate someone else arresting him without looking too weak I'm sure they would.

 

[Revan]

I guess I just don't agree with that conclusion. I don't think anyone is going to try to trick Netanyahu to come to Norway and then arrest him, but if he somehow did come here we absolutely would arrest him. But he wouldn't come here. Because we would arrest him.

It's basically one of those.

Basically this. Essentially, if Netanyahu for whatever reasons wants to come to most of European countries, they will ask him to not come. Assuming that the judges confirm the prosecutor's warrant, of course.

I do not think that they would particularly like arresting him, but at the same time, the European countries try to not act like the US/Russia/China when it comes to ignoring completely the international law.

 

[Denis79]

Most EU countries would comply with it, UK and Germany are probably amongst a minority that wouldn't act. The US doesn't have as much influence as it thinks it does, we've seen how often their attempts have failed at the UN.

Hopefully he's arrogant enough to actually put it to the test. Even the US would happily be rid of Netanyahu, if they could orchestrate someone else arresting him without looking too weak I'm sure they would.

The US wouldn't even comment if a western democracy would choose to arrest him. Would look terrible if they did and have no effect.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

This is why I will never castigate other African countries for allying with the Putin/Xi axis. The West foreign policy is brutally hypocritical and self serving. Bunch of cnuts. It’s time Africa stopped listening to them.
https://twitter.com/rnaudbertrand/status/1792748783996207206?s=46&t=wxpuqJtaIkz2kcV7xGORhg

I don't understand this logic.

All foreign policy is self serving - pure geopolitical altruism does not exist.

What you're basically is saying, because the west are self serving and hypocritical, it's best to ally themselves with those who are even worse?

 

[Raoul]

The US wouldn't even comment if a western democracy would choose to arrest him. Would look terrible if they did and have no effect.

If you want to know how the US would react, just look at the threats being levied against the ICC by the US Senate for even considering Netanyahu as a defendant, then magnify x 10 if a NATO country actually attempted to arrest him.

 

[Denis79]

If you want to know how the US would react, just look at the threats being levied against the ICC by the US Senate for even considering Netanyahu as a defendant, then magnify x 10 if a NATO country actually attempted to arrest him.

Would have no effect.

 

[Raoul]

Would have no effect.

It would given that there's no penalty for any country ignoring an ICC ruling and most NATO states have much broader equities at stake with the US than arresting one guy.

 

[Denis79]

It would given that there's no penalty for any country ignoring an ICC ruling and most NATO states have much broader equities at stake with the US than arresting one guy.

The United States cannot dictate the values held by a democratically elected government.

 

[HTG]

I really don’t understand his angle. Is he saying democratic leaders can’t commit atrocities?

Something like this. I believe the democracy angle serves the purpose of showing Israel as this modern and civilised country, something westerners associate with democracy, while the Palestinians are basically just some wild and uncivilised people without law and rules.
It is quite similar to the typical coloniser mindset, wherein the great western civilisations brought progress and development to barbaric and backward countries. It’s a justification strategy and a way to portray Palestinians as lower developed humans.

 

[Raoul]

The United States cannot dictate the values held by a democratically elected government.

True, but NATO countries are often diplomatically tied to US and western interests, and would be under pressure to not take any action if the US requests no action be taken. It also doesn't help that no country, particularly ones in the developed world, is under any legal obligation to actually follow through with an ICC ruling. If they don't, it could technically be referred to the UN Security Council, which is dominated by three superpowers that are not ICC signatories. The Russians certainly aren't going to support it given that Putin is himself a target. China aren't a signatory (nor is India), and the US have historically supported ICC rulings when it suits them (typically against tin pot dictators in the developing world) and ignore them when they don't.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The Western World, broadly speaking, treats "War crimes" better than most when conducted by it's own officers.

The exemption to this is when its related to sensitive, black-operations where any court-trial could reveal this. For example, undercover military in Northern Ireland during the troubles, US special forces in the middle east, SAS operations etc. What usually happens here is the soldier(s) in question are quietly dismissed and told to shut up.

The world, none NATO/Western Bloc etc also holds the West (probably rightfully so) to a much higher standard (I'm not including Israel in this) when it comes to the criteria of who should be put in front of the ICJ/ICC, so it causes military brass to get irritated when people start clamoring the US president to put in front of the Hague for a mis-calculated drone strike when nobody cares about massacres across the whole that happen every few years.

 

[Raoul]

The Western World, broadly speaking, treats "War crimes" better than most when conducted by it's own officers.

The exemption to this is when its related to sensitive, black-operations where any court-trial could reveal this. For example, undercover military in Northern Ireland during the troubles, US special forces in the middle east, SAS operations etc. What usually happens here is the soldier(s) in question are quietly dismissed and told to shut up.

The world, none NATO/Western Bloc etc also holds the West (probably rightfully so) to a much higher standard (I'm not including Israel in this) when it comes to the criteria of who should be put in front of the ICJ/ICC, so it causes military brass to get irritated when people start clamoring the US president to put in front of the Hague for a mis-calculated drone strike when nobody cares about massacres across the whole that happen every few years.

Would be interested to know who said this to him.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Would be interested to know who said this to him.

I don't have the context, is he saying a political leader or a military leader?

If he's claiming a military leader said that to him, I think he's making it up or grossly exaggerating - Everyone from top to bottom is explicitly drilled to not make statements or comments to anybody regarding this kind of stuff.

If it's a political leader, I can totally see some twat from the cabinet or congress/committee trying to big-man him.

 

[Raoul]

I don't have the context, is he saying a political leader or a military leader?

If he's claiming a military leader said that to him, I think he's making it up or grossly exaggerating - Everyone from top to bottom is explicitly drilled to not make statements or comments to anybody regarding this kind of stuff.

If it's a political leader, I can totally see some twat from the cabinet or congress/committee trying to big-man him.

He said elected leader. I'm not sure whether they are American or not. If they are it could be Lindsey Graham or Tom Cotton (or possibly McConnell)

 

[Revan]

I don't understand this logic.

All foreign policy is self serving - pure geopolitical altruism does not exist.

What you're basically is saying, because the west are self serving and hypocritical, it's best to ally themselves with those who are even worse?

China has been far better for Africa than the US.

How is the saying, 'Every time some Chinese leader visits Africa, a hospital is build. Every time a US leader visits Africa, Africa gets a lecture'.

 

[berbatrick]

I remember some posters here asking what more they wanted from Biden after he maybe stopped one (1) weapons delivery when they entered Rafah.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

He said elected leader. I'm not sure whether they are American or not. If they are it could be Lindsey Graham or Tom Cotton (or possibly McConnell)

Mitch is too shrewd to say something like that.
Tom Cotton spent far too long in the armed forces to ever let something like that slip.
Graham is a collossal bellend who can't keep his mouth shut so I that one wouldn't surprise me.

Marco Rubio is also a good shout. The guy is on multiple defense related select commitee's and the man decided to provide live intel on Twitter during the night of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Absolute nightmare.

If what he said is also an accurate transposition of the words, I can't imagine European leaders saying something like that. It has a distinct American blaise tone to it

 

[Revan]

Mitch is too shrewd to say something like that.
Tom Cotton spent far too long in the armed forces to ever let something like that slip.
Graham is a collossal bellend who can't keep his mouth shut so I that one wouldn't surprise me.

Marco Rubio is also a good shout. The guy is on multiple defense related select commitee's and the man decided to provide live intel on Twitter during the night of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Absolute nightmare.

If what he said is also an accurate transposition of the words, I can't imagine European leaders saying something like that. It has a distinct American blaise tone to it

Absolutely. I mean, everyone knows what was said there to be what really is, but only an American would actually say that.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

China has been far better for Africa than the US.

How is the saying, 'Every time some Chinese leader visits Africa, a hospital is build. Every time a US leader visits Africa, Africa gets a lecture'.

You know the majority of the infrastructure "projects" that China do really screw up the African countries on a local economy level? The Chinese contractors rarely employ the local population, hire cheap labour from China, bring them over, and bring over a massively racist overtone. Not to mention half the "budget" goes to government leaders in the form of bribery.

There was a great video of an African leader being interviewed, and the reporter asked "We have spent XXX Million on this new road, yet we see nothing? Where is it?" The leader laughed, pointed to a fancy mansion/palace in the distance and said, "There's your road."

You see videos of Chinese construction workers beating on local labour, there was a video recently of a Chinese manager Whipping a group of whimpering locals shouting at them to stop being lazy, there's been murder of locals, the lot. It's "better" for the state leaders, but horrifying for the population.

This isn't to say that US companies have done great in these regions either, but there's a reason that IMF enforces strict economic and political restructuring before becoming eligible whereas China is happy to throw money at African nations knowing they won't get a monetary return on investment.

 

[B20]

I remember some posters here asking what more they wanted from Biden after he maybe stopped one (1) weapons delivery when they entered Rafah.

all the spine of a jelly fish.

now roll over, Joe and lie. like a good dog.

 

[Sky1981]

You know the majority of the infrastructure "projects" that China do really screw up the African countries on a local economy level? The Chinese contractors rarely employ the local population, hire cheap labour from China, bring them over, and bring over a massively racist overtone. Not to mention half the "budget" goes to government leaders in the form of bribery.

There was a great video of an African leader being interviewed, and the reporter asked "We have spent XXX Million on this new road, yet we see nothing? Where is it?" The leader laughed, pointed to a fancy mansion/palace in the distance and said, "There's your road."

You see videos of Chinese construction workers beating on local labour, there was a video recently of a Chinese manager Whipping a group of whimpering locals shouting at them to stop being lazy, there's been murder of locals, the lot. It's "better" for the state leaders, but horrifying for the population.

This isn't to say that US companies have done great in these regions either, but there's a reason that IMF enforces strict economic and political restructuring before becoming eligible whereas China is happy to throw money at African nations knowing they won't get a monetary return on investment.

Cheap labors from china? You know the flight costs, expats, etc. Chinese labors arent cheap

They're building lots of infrastructure in Indonesia. They sent the aupervisor and the technicians but most of the labor pools are from locals. It made no economic sense to bring chinese labors in thousands when the locals are much cheaper.

And no.. they dont whip Indonesian. There would be riots if there's one.

We've had loans from IMF and nothing to show for. The past 10 years i can't count on how many big projects the Chinese made in here. Debt trap? At least the infrastructure is bolted in Indonesia. So unless they can magically transport the MRT, the Highways and the high speed train. It's here to stay

Maybe actually watch some videos on actual people making vlogs on daily lives instead of some doctored propaganda by the west for a change.

The US has been in Iraq for 20 bloody years and they only have makeshift hospitals and tents to show for

 

[Raoul]

Mitch is too shrewd to say something like that.
Tom Cotton spent far too long in the armed forces to ever let something like that slip.
Graham is a collossal bellend who can't keep his mouth shut so I that one wouldn't surprise me.

Marco Rubio is also a good shout. The guy is on multiple defense related select commitee's and the man decided to provide live intel on Twitter during the night of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Absolute nightmare.

If what he said is also an accurate transposition of the words, I can't imagine European leaders saying something like that. It has a distinct American blaise tone to it

Yeah Rubio would be a good shout. And sounds like something he was say as well since he's one of the biggest Russia hawks in Congress. Imagine on the other hand if it was Sunak.

 

[Adisa]

I don't understand this logic.

All foreign policy is self serving - pure geopolitical altruism does not exist.

What you're basically is saying, because the west are self serving and hypocritical, it's best to ally themselves with those who are even worse?

"Worse" is subjective. And you are right, I am saying African countries need to start acting in their selfish interest and not some idealist shit about needing to align with the West.

 

[berbatrick]

The Western World, broadly speaking, treats "War crimes" better than most when conducted by it's own officers.


The world, none NATO/Western Bloc etc also holds the West (probably rightfully so) to a much higher standard (I'm not including Israel in this) when it comes to the criteria of who should be put in front of the ICJ/ICC, so it causes military brass to get irritated when people start clamoring the US president to put in front of the Hague for a mis-calculated drone strike when nobody cares about massacres across the whole that happen every few years.

My Lai led to commendations for the participants, who were defended publicly by Westmoreland and future chief Colin Powell. The entire mass murder+rape and subsequent cover-up - caught by fellow soldiers - led to one 3-year sentence and one demotion for the perpetrators, and a reprimand for the photographer who helped expose it. Statements from other soldiers regarding "similar massacres every week" led to nothing.
About 40 years later, the PMCs that did the well-documented Blackwater massacre (not US soldiers) spent a year in prison before pardon. Blackwater itself continues under the same management and a different name.

By "the world", you mean timewasting Leftists online? Because no western leader has come close to the ICC or ICJ despite a very, very long list of things that are more serious than a "mis-calculcated drone strike."

 

[berbatrick]

Israel is just like any other proxy state really, nothing more to it than a superpower-client relationship. Just another South Vietnam situation basically.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Cheap labors from china? You know the flight costs, expats, etc. Chinese labors arent cheap

They're building lots of infrastructure in Indonesia. They sent the aupervisor and the technicians but most of the labor pools are from locals. It made no economic sense to bring chinese labors in thousands when the locals are much cheaper.

And no.. they dont whip Indonesian. There would be riots if there's one.

We've had loans from IMF and nothing to show for. The past 10 years i can't count on how many big projects the Chinese made in here. Debt trap? At least the infrastructure is bolted in Indonesia. So unless they can magically transport the MRT, the Highways and the high speed train. It's here to stay

Maybe actually watch some videos on actual people making vlogs on daily lives instead of some doctored propaganda by the west for a change.

The US has been in Iraq for 20 bloody years and they only have makeshift hospitals and tents to show for

When was Indonesia in Africa?

The relationship in SEA with China and Africa are wholly different.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

My Lai led to commendations for the participants, who were defended publicly by Westmoreland and future chief Colin Powell. The entire mass murder+rape and subsequent cover-up - caught by fellow soldiers - led to one 3-year sentence and one demotion for the perpetrators, and a reprimand for the photographer who helped expose it. Statements from other soldiers regarding "similar massacres every week" led to nothing.
About 40 years later, the PMCs that did the well-documented Blackwater massacre (not US soldiers) spent a year in prison before pardon. Blackwater itself continues under the same management and a different name.

By "the world", you mean timewasting Leftists online? Because no western leader has come close to the ICC or ICJ despite a very, very long list of things that are more serious than a "mis-calculcated drone strike."

It's interesting you bring up My Lai because that proves the exact point.

The world knows about my Lai and rightfully so, but as My Lai was happening, Hue Massacre was happening...where plain clothed NVA soldiers (war crime) went into Hue city and massacred thousands and thousands of civilians.

nobody holds, or to this day, cares, about holding Vietnam to account over this. Everyone and their dog has heard of My Lai. Complete differing standards.

 

[berbatrick]

It's interesting you bring up My Lai because that proves the exact point.

The world knows about my Lai and rightfully so, but as My Lai was happening, Hue Massacre was happening...where plain clothed NVA soldiers (war crime) went into Hue city and massacred thousands and thousands of civilians.

nobody holds, or to this day, cares, about holding Vietnam to account over this. Everyone and their dog has heard of My Lai. Complete differing standards.

The difference between the two is one person sentenced.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Cheap labors from china? You know the flight costs, expats, etc. Chinese labors arent cheap

They're building lots of infrastructure in Indonesia. They sent the aupervisor and the technicians but most of the labor pools are from locals. It made no economic sense to bring chinese labors in thousands when the locals are much cheaper.

And no.. they dont whip Indonesian. There would be riots if there's one.

We've had loans from IMF and nothing to show for. The past 10 years i can't count on how many big projects the Chinese made in here. Debt trap? At least the infrastructure is bolted in Indonesia. So unless they can magically transport the MRT, the Highways and the high speed train. It's here to stay

Maybe actually watch some videos on actual people making vlogs on daily lives instead of some doctored propaganda by the west for a change.

The US has been in Iraq for 20 bloody years and they only have makeshift hospitals and tents to show for

I would recommend reading this

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305750X2100423X

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The difference between the two is one person sentenced.

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

 

[Idxomer]

Kind of looks that way doesn't it? @Raoul was insistent that this war would be over waaay before then and would therefore be well forgotten anyway.

Was reading a few days ago that there were rockets fired from the North (again) and further strikes and attacks in Jabalia, despite it being at the far north of the ' already cleared' strip and Israel seemingly annihilating it first time round.

Things are going well.

Jabalia has been bombed relentlessly every day for a few weeks now. No hospitals are working anymore in the north after the last functioning one went out of service today. Anyone who gets injured will most likely die.

 

[africanspur]

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

Im sorry, I don’t think they are. Especially when your initial comment referred to being dragged in front of the ICC/ICJ.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Im sorry, I don’t think they are. Especially when your initial comment referred to being dragged in front of the ICC/ICJ.

Many people, both with power and without power, have expressed views that the likes of Nixon, Johnson, Kissinger etc should be hauled to the Hague. Kissinger being a war criminal is a very common and popular opinion.

Compare and contrast to that of the views of Ho Chi Minh?

 

[berbatrick]

In material outcome. in outrage, political fallout, awareness....come on, you're being very disingenuous if you think they're equal.

an estimated 200k civilians were killed by NVA, including system war crimes such as plainclothing, massacres and seizures of south vietnamese villages, complete eradication of non-compliant villages.
not to mention torture of POW's, Hanoi hotel, murder of political dissidents.

Yet we're in the 21st century and not a single person gives a crap about all the stuff Vietnam did, but focus on the much smaller scale US crimes.

You're proving my point here

And there were massacres by the South Vietnamese equal in scale.

Given the circumstances around its discovery, it is very probably the My Lai was indeed the tip of the iceberg in terms of US crimes. I'm from a country which has an active Communist insurgency - don't have to dig too deep to understand what happens when, for example, "a village is freed from Communist control and 18 insurgents eliminated." This was just last week. Not going to include extremely grisly stuff that came out some years ago when the press clampdown in Naxal areas was less absolute, and the pattern is almost always the same: triumphant release that terrorists were eliminated, a week later, locals dispute that characterisation.

The initial publicity about My Lai was exactly the same, with public congratulation for the perpetrators for eliminating VC. The difference was the heroism of one man. It is very logical that there were other incidents that will not be known.

The US won the Cold War. It "won" the Vietnam war - the dominoes stopped falling, while it simultaneously helped Indonesia liberate itself from Communism at the cost of 3 million lives. Scrutiny from anonymous people online is a small price for ruling the world.