Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

maniak said:
I just don't see how a truly democratic process is compatible with the stuff written on wiki.

As for the israeli part, I remember reading that most voters in israeli territory were less likely to vote hamas, so by preventing them from voting or making it more difficult, was ultimately good for hamas.
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From the other sources in the thread which are better than Wikipedia, Fatah did have more help.

The results were probably as fair as you could possibly expect given the circumstances. I believe considering that moment in time, Hamas would've also won if there were zero problems around the elections.
 
Idxomer said:
From the other sources in the thread which are better than Wikipedia, Fatah did have more help.

The results were probably as fair as you could possibly expect given the circumstances. I believe considering that moment in time, Hamas would've also won if there were zero problems around the elections.
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Fair enough about the israel help part.

As for the fairness, I simply can't see how democracy (at least the way I see it) is compatible with the stuff written on wiki.
 
maniak said:
I just don't see how a truly democratic process is compatible with the stuff written on wiki.
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I’m not sure why you’re focusing solely on that specific section and ignoring the rest?

“An 84-delegate international observer delegation monitored the elections. It judged the elections to have been peaceful and well-administered. Twenty-seven members of the European parliament were included. Edward McMillan-Scott, the British Conservative head of the European Parliament's monitoring team described the polls as "extremely professional, in line with international standards, free, transparent and without violence". His colleague, Italian Communist MEP Luisa Morgantini said there was "a very professional attitude, competence and respect for the rules."

…

The National Democratic Institute (NDI) in partnership with The Carter Center reported "a professional and impartial performance of election officials". The European Union delegation reported "there was nothing which would indicate that the final result was not the outcome chosen by the voters". A CRS Report for Congress on the 2006 elections concluded: "The election was overseen by 17,268 domestic observers, complemented by 900 credentialed international monitors. ... The Bush Administration accepted the outcome of the Palestinian legislative elections and praised the PA for holding free and fair elections. ... The conduct of the election was widely considered to be free and fair."
 
2cents said:
I’m not sure why you’re focusing solely on that specific section and ignoring the rest?

“An 84-delegate international observer delegation monitored the elections. It judged the elections to have been peaceful and well-administered. Twenty-seven members of the European parliament were included. Edward McMillan-Scott, the British Conservative head of the European Parliament's monitoring team described the polls as "extremely professional, in line with international standards, free, transparent and without violence". His colleague, Italian Communist MEP Luisa Morgantini said there was "a very professional attitude, competence and respect for the rules."

…

The National Democratic Institute (NDI) in partnership with The Carter Center reported "a professional and impartial performance of election officials". The European Union delegation reported "there was nothing which would indicate that the final result was not the outcome chosen by the voters". A CRS Report for Congress on the 2006 elections concluded: "The election was overseen by 17,268 domestic observers, complemented by 900 credentialed international monitors. ... The Bush Administration accepted the outcome of the Palestinian legislative elections and praised the PA for holding free and fair elections. ... The conduct of the election was widely considered to be free and fair."
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Because if it's true, it undermines what's written in what you quoted. Manipulation and intimidation either happened or not. If it happened, in an election decided by 30k votes out of a million, then surely it puts into perspective the legitimacy of the election.
 
maniak said:
Because if it's true, it undermines what's written in what you quoted. Manipulation and intimidation either happened or not. If it happened, in an election decided by 30k votes out of a million, then surely it puts into perspective the legitimacy of the election.
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It surely depends on the scale and significance of said manipulation and intimidation, and in this case it seems that pretty much every serious person who was involved in monitoring the elections and every serious scholar who has subsequently written about them has concluded that their legitimacy was ultimately not significantly undermined by those issues.
 
Often what happens in situations like this, some fall guy gets sacrificed so that the others can continue business as usual and not have the status quo challenged.

Wonder if the US will eventually take their hands off this and let Netanyahu be the fall guy.
 
2cents said:
It surely depends on the scale and significance of said manipulation and intimidation, and in this case it seems that pretty much every serious person who was involved in monitoring the elections and every serious scholar who has subsequently written about them has concluded that their legitimacy was ultimately not significantly undermined by those issues.
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Wiki quotes a canadian government agency and a caltech political science professor in the paragraphs I posted. I don't have the knowledge of the issue to know who is serious or not, though.
 
maniak said:
I am not disputing anything you say about hamas.

But I will always blame the citizens of a free society over their political choices much more than the citizens of a society run by thugs and where citizens who vote and participate in political life do so under the threat of violence.
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I agree on that. I think We are majorly on the same page
 
maniak said:
Wiki quotes a canadian government agency and a caltech political science professor in the paragraphs I posted. I don't have the knowledge of the issue to know who is serious or not, though.
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I’ve posted the entire single source that Wiki relies on here. It’s just one source, a few paragraphs in a book that only deals with those elections in passing (contrast with the extensive sources offered by @Super Hans), but if you read through it and still come out convinced that the elections were illegitimate then fair enough, I can certainly accept that you apply considerably higher expectations and thresholds in these matters than most others.
 


If they weren't slaughtering so many, it would be fun to see this continuous stream of humiliation for Biden-Blinken and the US.
 
I don't expect much directly to come from this news, however it's another crack in the columns. European countries are being prised apart and the UK and US are the only ones offering full unconditional encouragement to Israel. Biden could be toppled by it and Sunak is out this year. Kier Starmer, David Lammy and Thornberry are being constantly harangued and will enter government with the blood still staining their hands.

It looks increasingly like Israel will have to be dealt with in some way and likely not because of the women and children it continues to starve, maim and kill but because of the damage it is doing to the western powers.
 
I think it's almost definite they're timing this to make Biden lose while he remains totally cucked to them :lol:

 
berbatrick said:


If they weren't slaughtering so many, it would be fun to see this continuous stream of humiliation for Biden-Blinken and the US.
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Biden and his administration deserve all of this humiliation and more.

Giggsyking said:
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The UK is so embarrassing man. With the US at least there is some context for why they are taking this stance, but there's absolutely no reason for the UK to do this besides wanting to be America's squire.

Very big "You tell em boss!" vibe from the UK
 
VorZakone said:
Often what happens in situations like this, some fall guy gets sacrificed so that the others can continue business as usual and not have the status quo challenged.

Wonder if the US will eventually take their hands off this and let Netanyahu be the fall guy.
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This US administration and its serial liars (that includes the POTUS) couldn't wait to see the back of him and consider Gantz as a much more "presentable" alternative. I'm sure they'd open a champagne bottle if Netanyahu were to kick the bucket tomorrow.

However in my opinion, they'll never deviate one bit from their unconditional but ultimately short-sighted support to Israel comes hell or high water, even if it means the obliteration of the international institutions. Despite the fact that Israel repeatedly and systematically dragged them into a ocean of shit, completely destroying the little credibility the US had left in the eyes of the world, whilst hoping for a Trump win. Partly due to an outdated ideology and vision of the world, partly due to the weight of their generous donors. And frankly at this point, I'm not even sure Trump could do worse.

Netanyahu will go down in History not only as a certified war criminal but also as the fall guy. He's only the symptom of a rot that lies deep in the Israeli society which has been imo on a self-destruction course for quite some time now.

But the responsiblity of the US in this matter is immense and Biden will be remembered as the main enabler of one of the greatest human tragedies of the 21st century.
 
America has spent the last five years complaining about threats to a rules-based system. Quite funny how they have torpedoed the argument themselves.
 
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berbatrick said:
I think it's almost definite they're timing this to make Biden lose while he remains totally cucked to them :lol:

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Kind of looks that way doesn't it? @Raoul was insistent that this war would be over waaay before then and would therefore be well forgotten anyway.

Was reading a few days ago that there were rockets fired from the North (again) and further strikes and attacks in Jabalia, despite it being at the far north of the ' already cleared' strip and Israel seemingly annihilating it first time round.

Things are going well.
 
Must admit I am surprised at how all the EU countries have basically said "we support and stand by the independence of the ICC" in this, even Germany.

The Danish foreign minister gave the same spiel, with the added comment that he found it a bit odd to see a democratically elected leader charged on same terms as the leader of a terrorist organisation. Surely that tells you something about the state of Israel, you gonk.
 
B20 said:
Must admit I am surprised at how all the EU countries have basically said "we support and stand by the independence of the ICC" in this, even Germany.

The Danish foreign minister gave the same spiel, with the added comment that he found it a bit odd to see a democratically elected leader charged on same terms as the leader of a terrorist organisation. Surely that tells you something about the state of Israel, you gonk.
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I was pleasantly surprised about this as well. I guess a lot of this stems from being in the EU and therefore being used to giving up some sovereignty to bigger institutions.
I also believe that while German politics appear quite united behind Israel, many of these politicians actually welcome the charges and view the current Israeli actions as just as despicable as many on here. They just don’t want to risk their positions in case of a possible backlash.
 
B20 said:
Must admit I am surprised at how all the EU countries have basically said "we support and stand by the independence of the ICC" in this, even Germany.

The Danish foreign minister gave the same spiel, with the added comment that he found it a bit odd to see a democratically elected leader charged on same terms as the leader of a terrorist organisation. Surely that tells you something about the state of Israel, you gonk.
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Yeah, thats a pretty dumb comment from Lars Løkke. Being democratically elected doesn't mean you are any less likely to commit a war crime.
 
B20 said:
Must admit I am surprised at how all the EU countries have basically said "we support and stand by the independence of the ICC" in this, even Germany.

The Danish foreign minister gave the same spiel, with the added comment that he found it a bit odd to see a democratically elected leader charged on same terms as the leader of a terrorist organisation. Surely that tells you something about the state of Israel, you gonk.
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Yeah, pleasantly surprised by that, considering their stance throughout this genocide.
 
B20 said:
Must admit I am surprised at how all the EU countries have basically said "we support and stand by the independence of the ICC" in this, even Germany.

The Danish foreign minister gave the same spiel, with the added comment that he found it a bit odd to see a democratically elected leader charged on same terms as the leader of a terrorist organisation. Surely that tells you something about the state of Israel, you gonk.
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I really don’t understand his angle. Is he saying democratic leaders can’t commit atrocities?
 
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