Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
I'm measuring it through one being a terrorist organization with clear intentions - killing Israelis and destroying Israel - and the other being a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

Now, if I compare Gaza (including its citizens) to Israel, that's a different matter.
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I'm sorry but your rationale has no basis by way of real life evidence or reality.

The 'terrorist organisation' is a direct reaction to decades of brutal occupation and oppression at the hands of Israelis. When you brutalise and subjugate a whole race of people, of course they will resist. You've stripped these people of pretty much every basic human right, and they live in apartheid conditions. Can you give me one example of where the oppressed just took their subjugation without resisting?

What you're advocating for is the oppressed just...suffer in silence?

I also find it pretty crazy you've absolved the IDF and Israel of any terroristic actions or terrorism themselves - I'm not even going to go back to 1947, but in the last 5 months alone, we've seen first hand the depths of depravity and barbaric behaviour the Israelis are capable of. If they were literally any other nation, they would have been sanctioned long ago.
 
The Corinthian said:
The 'terrorist organisation' is a direct reaction to decades of brutal occupation and oppression at the hands of Israelis. When you brutalise and subjugate a whole race of people, of course they will resist. You've stripped these people of pretty much every basic human right, and they live in apartheid conditions. Can you give me one example of where the oppressed just took their subjugation without resisting?
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This is the same TERROIST (not 'terrorist') organisation that when Israel signed the Oslo accords, responding by sending suicide bombers to blow up buses throughout Israel. This was its response to Israel's peace attempts.

I'm not blind to what Israel and the IDF are doing and have been doing for years and decades. It's disgusting, it's terrible. But there's also another side here who is hardly innocent.
 
Amir said:
This is the same TERROIST (not 'terrorist') organisation that when Israel signed the Oslo accords, responding by sending suicide bombers to blow up buses throughout Israel. This was its response to Israel's peace attempts.

I'm not blind to what Israel and the IDF are doing and have been doing for years and decades. It's disgusting, it's terrible. But there's also another side here who is hardly innocent.
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Why do you think Hamas came into existence? What was the surrounding context to their creation?

That's the point I'm getting at here. It's all well and good saying Hamas this and that, but they didn't just appear overnight out of a vacuum.
 
Amir said:
I'm not optimistic. The anti-democratic powers in the govenment are still working behind the scenes. Netanyahu is still poisoning everyone against themselves and any institution he can - including the courts, the police, etc. He's an agent of chaos and even when he's gone the healing won't start because there are so many of his devoted fans in the policital system right now.

I can't see a way up from this. I really can't. And that's just about Israel and internal issues.
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If it doesn't change Israel and it's people will lose. Israel will be judged and eventually shunned.
 
BBC… “The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has finished building a new road which runs across northern Gaza from east to west, according to satellite images verified by the BBC. The IDF told the BBC they were attempting to gain an "operational foothold", and facilitate the movement of troops and equipment.

But some experts fear it will used as a barrier, preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes in the north.
Others said it appeared to be part of an Israeli plan to remain in Gaza beyond the end of current hostilities.

In February, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu unveiled a post-war vision in which Israel would control security in Gaza indefinitely. International leaders have previously warned Israel against permanently displacing Palestinians or reducing the size of Gaza.”

To help the movement of troops and equipment … OR to completely cut off Northern Gaza and prevent Palestinians returning to their homes (which will then be given away, if not already bombed to bits). It’s one or the other…:rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68514821
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
BBC… “The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has finished building a new road which runs across northern Gaza from east to west, according to satellite images verified by the BBC. The IDF told the BBC they were attempting to gain an "operational foothold", and facilitate the movement of troops and equipment.

But some experts fear it will used as a barrier, preventing Palestinians from returning to their homes in the north.
Others said it appeared to be part of an Israeli plan to remain in Gaza beyond the end of current hostilities.

In February, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu unveiled a post-war vision in which Israel would control security in Gaza indefinitely. International leaders have previously warned Israel against permanently displacing Palestinians or reducing the size of Gaza.”

To help the movement of troops and equipment … OR to completely cut off Northern Gaza and prevent Palestinians returning to their homes (which will then be given away, if not already bombed to bits). It’s one or the other…:rolleyes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68514821
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From the maps it runs south of Gaza City. "Runs across Northern Gaza" is not the most accurate description from the BBC.
 
Frosty said:
When I read the headlines, it sounded like this was something that was happening much closer to the border, rather than potentially preventing people from returning to a city which had nearly 600k people living in it.
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Not sure which bit you’re referring to. Running east to west across north (they say northERN Gaza) read ok to me when looking at image
 
The Corinthian said:
Why do you think Hamas came into existence? What was the surrounding context to their creation?

That's the point I'm getting at here. It's all well and good saying Hamas this and that, but they didn't just appear overnight out of a vacuum.
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No they didn't. But even when Israel tried to make moves towards the Palestenians, and the two-state solution, Hamas responded with violence. What way out is there, then?

Those actions by Hamas in the nineties are a big reason why Israelis lost belief in the possibility of peace and the two-state solution since then. And can you blame them?
 
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Amir said:
Because Spain is not in the middle east.
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We still remember bilbau being bombed into the stone age when ETA carried out terrorist attacks. Those pictures of completely demolished basque cities will live forever.
 
Amir said:
No they didn't. But even when Israel tried to make moves towards the Palestenians, and the two-state solution, Hamas responded with violence. What way out is there, then?

Those actions by Hamas in the nineties are a big reason why Israelis lost belief in the possibility of peace and the two-state solution since then. And can you blame them?
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What do Israeli's make of their government tolerating/facilitating funds to Hamas?

For years, the Qatari government had been sending millions of dollars a month into the Gaza Strip — money that helped prop up the Hamas government there. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel not only tolerated those payments, he had encouraged them.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
 
Dumbstar said:
Exactly. Two genocidal countries. Both of whom have a rich history of doing this. Both countries who are also happy to see young children shot dead on their doorsteps without a care in the world. It's just 'a normal'.
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Wonder if there will ever be a time they will be held responsible
 
VorZakone said:
What do Israeli's make of their government tolerating/facilitating funds to Hamas?


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
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All done so the West Bank would be undermined. Shake the radical hornet's nest in Gaza, intentionally, (or strategically, or whatever war-gamers like to call it), and then Hamas taking the strong-man role within a vacuum wherein response, physical, is called for. All the while Fatah and the general PA are trying to be moderate and losing all support as the West Bank, over the past twenty years (and longer), has become a series of islands due to outright colonization by the Israeli state.

Israel, ever since Camp David, and before if you follow certain lines of argument, has had no intention but to annex the land it is currently ethnically cleansing. It now has a different idea because it understands how impossible that task is (the world just will not tolerate it, and that will include its heaviest backers in America and Europe owing to larger pictures and Chinese/BRIC influence among the Arab League). The West is not what it was which, in part, is why it has reacted so confusingly and spasmodically to recent political events (entirely unsure of itself in an altering geopolitical landscape). Time is not on the side of more "war on terror" and everyone with a few brain-cells knows it.
 


Medical scissors are now added to a long list of banned items the Israeli Authorities classify as “for dual use”. The list includes basic and lifesaving items: from anesthetics, solar lights, oxygen cylinders and ventilators, to water cleaning tablets, cancer medicines and maternity kits. The clearance of humanitarian supplies + the delivery of basic & critical items need to be facilitated & accelerated. The lives of 2 million people depend on that, there is no time to waste.
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VorZakone said:
What do Israeli's make of their government tolerating/facilitating funds to Hamas?
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Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around
 
Amir said:
Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around
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Let me get this straight. Did Israeli people not think it was a tactic to play the Palestinians off against eachother (PA/Hamas) ?
 
Amir said:
Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around
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So the whole world knew why Netanyahu was facilitating and helping Hamas to stay in power, but only Israelis did not understand that? I am sorry, but I do not buy this at all.
 
Amir said:
Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around
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Dude come off it. You’re better than spouting this rubbish.

Also if the question was to help Gaza why have they been under a military blockade? Why did they blow up the airport and seaport?
 
VorZakone said:
Let me get this straight. Did Israeli people not think it was a tactic to play the Palestinians off against eachother (PA/Hamas) ?
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It obviously was a tactic, but I think that the people who were interested in that part were the policitians, starting with Netanyahu.

The average Israeli didn't care the about the tactic, if he even knew or understood it. He was focused on the result - if it gives him peace and quiet, fine, whatever.

That's part of the tragedy, really. The Palestenian problem stopped being an issue for most Israelis as they just assumed the govenment had it sorted, in its own twisted way.
 
I didn't expect there would be any fallout after Glazer's speech at the Oscars but Zionists continue to show their true faces.

The least amount of condemnation on a world stage from a Jewish person and they go crazy.
 
Amir said:
Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around
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"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm"
 
Giggsyking said:
So the whole world knew why Netanyahu was facilitating and helping Hamas to stay in power, but only Israelis did not understand that? I am sorry, but I do not buy this at all.
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Israelis knew. They just figured out that it wouldn't be a major issue and that the govenment knew what it was doing. Once in a while we had a military operation in Gaza and rockets were fired towards Israel, but it didn't cause great damage or many fatalities due to the Iron Dome system. It didn't interfere with lives in Israel too much.

I knew it's a weird sort of existance, but we became used to it.
 
The Corinthian said:
Dude come off it. You’re better than spouting this rubbish.
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Where am I wrong here? What do you know about what Israelis have been thinking for the past 20 years that I do not?

The Corinthian said:
Also if the question was to help Gaza why have they been under a military blockade? Why did they blow up the airport and seaport?
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Oh, I don't think anyone in Israel was too interested in helping Gaza. People in Israel were interested in themselves and their peace and quiet. Israelis were told that allowing Hamas to receive Qatari money would help Israel as it will give Hamas an incentive not to start anything serious against Israel, so they accepted it and went on with their lives, not being too interested in what's going on in Gaza.
 
Giggsyking said:
"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm"
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Yes, I know, all of this is true.

My point is that there as huge divide between what Israeli politicians - starting with Netanyahu - are thinking and doing and what the average Israeli is doing and is interested in.
 
Idxomer said:
I didn't expect there would be any fallout after Glazer's speech at the Oscars but Zionists continue to show their true faces.

The least amount of condemnation on a world stage from a Jewish person and they go crazy.
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Most Israelis are incapable of hearing or accepting any sort of criticism toward Israel. That includes the media, who's been treating Glazer with contempt.
 
Amir said:
It obviously was a tactic, but I think that the people who were interested in that part were the policitians, starting with Netanyahu.

The average Israeli didn't care the about the tactic, if he even knew or understood it. He was focused on the result - if it gives him peace and quiet, fine, whatever.

That's part of the tragedy, really. The Palestenian problem stopped being an issue for most Israelis as they just assumed the govenment had it sorted, in its own twisted way.
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So you were fine with humiliation of the Gazans as long as you were able to live comfortably. You should really try reading back some of your takes and ask the question "are we the baddies?".
 
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