Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
You mean the one Hamas performed?
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sure buddy. The one Hamas performed was brutal absolutely. No one is contesting that. Should we arm them so they can do that to all of Israel?

Israel’s actions are just as despicable and anyone justifying them needs to take a long hard look at themselves
 
Amir said:
So now 25 people represent millions?
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Israel is a “democracy” isn’t it ? Israel has conscription and the draft. Israeli citizens make up the army that is killing kids and wearing the underwear of dead Palestinian women. Then of course the polling of Israeli citizens.

Also where is the million of Israelis protesting the actions of genocide it’s government is doing.
 
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Amir said:
You are judging nine million people based on a few Twitter posts and an answer on a survey. Thats silly and shallow.
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You essentially called for at the very least ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians at one point in this thread, despite being outwardly liberal for the most part on the forum. We've also had the experience of a few absolute humdinger Israeli posters over the years, and are currently seeing probably 99% of anecdotal evidence out of Israel/Israelis showing that they don't care in the slightest about what is happening in Gaza/West Bank, or ever want worse things to happen(with a few cases of brave people standing against it all).

We've heard countless government and army representatives espouse notions that personally remind me about things I was taught about German society's treatment of the Jews in WW2, and I think more clearcut videos and images of a broad spectrum of warcrimes being committed gleefully by the IDF than I've ever seen before in a modern 'conflict'. All of this from a supposed progressive, democratic modern nation. Can you please explain exactly why we should judge your country any differently?
 
Raven said:
Multiple surveys. I haven't seen a single survey since October 7th that shows Israeli citizens want a ceasefire.
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For about 15 years since 2008, every Israeli operation in Gaza ended with a ceasefire and promises that Hamas is deterred and that we would not have major problems with it for years. Some believed that. Even those who didn't, certainly didn't believe Hamas would be able to attack us in such a way.

So now people don't want to hear about anymore ceasefires. They want to see Hamas annhilated (which isn't really going to happen) or at least stop being any sort of a threat. They are certainly not very flexible with 134 people who were abducted still in Gaza.
 
africanspur said:
With respect Amir, is the point not that basically any people on the planet are 'peaceful' as long as it's on their terms?

I'm sure the Russians would be classed as peaceful people if Ukraine and the baltics just acquiesed and did what they were told. I'm sure the Afrikaner south Africans would be peaceful people if the black south Africans just stayed quiet and did what they were told.
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It surely depends on the situation and what these terms are.

Are Norwegians peaceful? I'd say yes. But how would they react if their country and themselves were under the threat of rocket fire and terrorist attacks? They'd probably want and expect their country to react in urder to assure their safety - even if it means a strong military operation. Would that make them less peaceful?
 
Denis79 said:
Israel is a democracy, Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Herzog and many more other genocidal maniacs were put in power by the people. But I agree with you can not judge all 9 million, some are surely against the monstrous violence. But considering what is going on, where are the protests? Where are all the calls for humanity. Very silent from the nine million to be fair.
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In in 1982 war in Lebanon, there were heavy protests against the govenment. There are none now (except for those calling the govenment to resign), which goes to show how the October 7 attacks affected people here.
 
Conor said:
You essentially called for at the very least ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians at one point in this thread, despite being outwardly liberal for the most part on the forum. We've also had the experience of a few absolute humdinger Israeli posters over the years, and are currently seeing probably 99% of anecdotal evidence out of Israel/Israelis showing that they don't care in the slightest about what is happening in Gaza/West Bank, or ever want worse things to happen(with a few cases of brave people standing against it all).
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No, I didn't. The fact that I had no issues with the IDF doing what is needed to assure security to Israel is simply not the same.


Conor said:
We've heard countless government and army representatives espouse notions that personally remind me about things I was taught about German society's treatment of the Jews in WW2, and I think more clearcut videos and images of a broad spectrum of warcrimes being committed gleefully by the IDF than I've ever seen before in a modern 'conflict'. All of this from a supposed progressive, democratic modern nation. Can you please explain exactly why we should judge your country any differently?
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You shouldn't. Parts of Israel are evil pieces of shit, no better than the Nazis, and unfortunately those pieces of shit are in control right now.

I'm mostly pointing out that there's more to Israel - and Israelis - than this, and that most people here can simply not understand what October 7 caused the Israeli psyche.

I know people here made fun of posters saying 'it's complex'. But unfortunately, it really is.
 
Shez said:
sure buddy. The one Hamas performed was brutal absolutely. No one is contesting that. Should we arm them so they can do that to all of Israel?

Israel’s actions are just as despicable and anyone justifying them needs to take a long hard look at themselves
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Yes, they are. I'm not disputing that. It has gone overboard and lasted too long.
 
The blindsideness would be so hilarious if the consequences weren't so tragic. Forgetting the 3 quarters of million who were forced out of their homes and then keeping your boot on the neck of the ones who stayed, taking whatever land they have left, killing them and arbitrarily imprisoning them inlcuidng their children amongst other countless inhumane actions . Then to have the brass neck to complain why there have been consequences to this oppression.
 
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Amir said:
In in 1982 war in Lebanon, there were heavy protests against the govenment. There are none now (except for those calling the govenment to resign), which goes to show how the October 7 attacks affected people here.
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1982 was 40 years ago and those protesting were different people. I am talking about Israelis today, the ones that put this government in power.

Let's kill more innocents to make it right? Seek some revenge? Hamas are murderous terrorist scum, sadly Israel has shown they are no better. Just like Hamas they target anyone of the opposite side, civilian or not.

Imagine Ukrainian troops invading a Russian city and killing tens of thousands of civilians, completely leveling civilian infrastructure in the process. An eye for an eye right? You know what? They wouldn't because their government, despite the horrors experienced in their invasion, still believe in human decency and international laws. And the proof of that is simple to find, just look at their treatment of Russian POWs.
 
Amir said:
It surely depends on the situation and what these terms are.

Are Norwegians peaceful? I'd say yes. But how would they react if their country and themselves were under the threat of rocket fire and terrorist attacks? They'd probably want and expect their country to react in urder to assure their safety - even if it means a strong military operation. Would that make them less peaceful?
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A 'strong military operation' is certainly a description but not one applicable here.
 
Amir said:
For about 15 years since 2008, every Israeli operation in Gaza ended with a ceasefire and promises that Hamas is deterred and that we would not have major problems with it for years. Some believed that. Even those who didn't, certainly didn't believe Hamas would be able to attack us in such a way.

So now people don't want to hear about anymore ceasefires. They want to see Hamas annhilated (which isn't really going to happen) or at least stop being any sort of a threat. They are certainly not very flexible with 134 people who were abducted still in Gaza.
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Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. You, of all people, should know it even if you're not ready to accept it.

If the Israelis seriously thought that they could live the dream by putting one part of the Palestinians behind bars whilst slowly but surely nibbling at the West Bank until there's nothing left and get away with it, then they were deluded. There's not a single population on Earth that would accept the treatment Palestinians have been subjected to for the past 75 years. If it can soothe your pain, all of the colonial or caste based societies thought this way, until they were painfully proved wrong.

I know that you're quite lonely on your side of the argument and besieged right now but please, don't reduce it to "Hamas started it". You're better than this.

Trust me when I say that I understand the immense pain and anger among the Israeli population at the moment, and I certainly won't ask for public protests on Tel Aviv's streets. However, nothing will ever justify what we're seeing right now, and I don't think that you quite grasp the extent of the current damage done to the Israeli cause on an international level, even in the West. This onslaught on Gaza is absolutely unprecedented in its methodical destructions, killings and documentation. It trumps by far anything Israel has done since 1948, back when social media wasn't a thing, and massacres or mass expulsions could be quietly swept under the rug.

Forget about the Western mainstream media, some of which started to turn their coat, or the Israeli's. The images, discourses and videos willfully uploaded by your own politicians and soldiers on the net, Israeli civilians actively blocking aid coming into Gaza, despite their country being investigated by the ICJ for plausible genocidal intent, are watched by people around the world who will soon have a real say on how their own countries should behave towards Israel.

A day will come when Israel will be judged as a country like any other on this planet, even by Western standards, and the horrors of the Holocaust won't be enough of a curtain to hide behind.
 
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That_Bloke said:
Hamas is a symptom not the cause. You, of all people, should know it even if you're not ready to accept it.

If the Israelis seriously thought that they could live the dream by putting one part of the Palestinians behind bars while slowly but surely nibbling at the West Bank until there's nothing left, and get away with it, then sorry they were deluded. There's not a single population on Earth that would accept the treatment Palestinians have been subjected to for the past 75 years. If it can soothe your pain, all of the colonial or caste based societies thought that way, until they painfully were proved wrong.

I know that you're quite lonely on your side of the argument and besieged right now, but please don't reduce it to "Hamas started it". You're better than this.

Trust me when I say that I understand the immense pain and anger among the Israeli population at the moment, and I certainly won't ask for public protests on Tel Aviv's streets. However nothing will ever justify what we're seeing right now, and I don't think that you quite grasp the extent of the current damage done to the Israeli cause on an international level, even in the West. This onslaught on Gaza is absolutely unprecedented both in its methodical destructions, killings and documentation. It trumps by far anything done by Israel since 1948, back when social media wasn't a thing, and massacres or mass expulsions could be quietly swept under the rug.

Forget about the Western mainstream media, some of which started to turn their coat, or the Israeli's. The images, discourses and videos willfully uploaded by your own politicians and soldiers on the net, despite their country being investigated by the ICJ for plausible genocidal intent, are watched by people who will soon have a real say on how their own countries should behave towards Israel.

A day will come when Israel will be judged as a country like any other on this planet, even by Western standards, and the horrors of the Holocaust won't be enough of a curtain to hide behind.
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Good post
 
hellhunter said:
This all has an air of Fearless about it
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Been saying it for ages. Raoul and Amir are a different level hasbara. Just like people are seeing Israel now for what they really are, so these two are unable to maintain their 'neutral' facade.
 
That_Bloke said:
Trust me when I say that I understand the immense pain and anger among the Israeli population at the moment, and I certainly won't ask for public protests on Tel Aviv's streets. However nothing will ever justify what we're seeing right now, and I don't think that you quite grasp the extent of the current damage done to the Israeli cause on an international level, even in the West. This onslaught on Gaza is absolutely unprecedented both in its methodical destructions, killings and documentation. It trumps by far anything done by Israel since 1948, back when social media wasn't a thing, and massacres or mass expulsions could be quietly swept under the rug.
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I think I can understand the damage. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel is treated like South Africa was during the apartheid years and I would actually justify it. But not necessarily for the war in Gaza. It should have happened years ago for all the other things Israel has done.

Unfortunately the international community has been too soft towards Israel over the years. It would have pushed Israel much, much harder in order to resolve this.
 
Dumbstar said:
Been saying it for ages. Raoul and Amir are a different level hasbara. Just like people are seeing Israel now for what they really are, so these two are unable to maintain their 'neutral' facade.
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Being a lefty never made me neutral. If people saw me as that, it's due to their own blindness.
 
Dumbstar said:
Been saying it for ages. Raoul and Amir are a different level hasbara. Just like people are seeing Israel now for what they really are, so these two are unable to maintain their 'neutral' facade.
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@Amir is absolutely not, neither is Raoul who just watches everything through US centered googles and simply doesn't give a shit about Palestine. Not the first and certainly not the last one.

You don't have the faintest idea about the inner struggles normal, good-willed people in Israel are going through right now and how conflicted some of them might be. I'd refrain from blanket statements if I were you.
 
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That_Bloke said:
Hamas is a symptom, not the cause. You, of all people, should know it even if you're not ready to accept it.

If the Israelis seriously thought that they could live the dream by putting one part of the Palestinians behind bars whilst slowly but surely nibbling at the West Bank until there's nothing left, and get away with it, then sorry they were deluded. There's not a single population on Earth that would accept the treatment Palestinians have been subjected to for the past 75 years. If it can soothe your pain, all of the colonial or caste based societies thought that way, until they painfully were proved wrong.

I know that you're quite lonely on your side of the argument and besieged right now, but please don't reduce it to "Hamas started it". You're better than this.

Trust me when I say that I understand the immense pain and anger among the Israeli population at the moment, and I certainly won't ask for public protests on Tel Aviv's streets. However nothing will ever justify what we're seeing right now, and I don't think that you quite grasp the extent of the current damage done to the Israeli cause on an international level, even in the West. This onslaught on Gaza is absolutely unprecedented in its methodical destructions, killings and documentation. It trumps by far anything Israel has done since 1948, back when social media wasn't a thing, and massacres or mass expulsions could be quietly swept under the rug.

Forget about the Western mainstream media, some of which started to turn their coat, or the Israeli's. The images, discourses and videos willfully uploaded by your own politicians and soldiers on the net, or Israeli civilians actively blocking aid coming in Gaza, despite their country being investigated by the ICJ for plausible genocidal intent, are watched by people around the world who will soon have a real say on how their own countries should behave towards Israel.

A day will come when Israel will be judged as a country like any other on this planet, even by Western standards, and the horrors of the Holocaust won't be enough of a curtain to hide behind.
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This.
 
Amir said:
Are Norwegians peaceful? I'd say yes. But how would they react if their country and themselves were under the threat of rocket fire and terrorist attacks? They'd probably want and expect their country to react in urder to assure their safety - even if it means a strong military operation. Would that make them less peaceful?
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There was a terrorist attack in Madrid on the 11th of March of 2004. The attack stemmed from Spain's participation in the Iraq War of 2003, which the majority of the public did not support.
There were elections a few days after the attacks and the Spanish immediately voted out the party that took them to war and voted for a party that immediately withdrew troops from Iraq. That is peaceful. If they had done something more bellicose they would be less peaceful.
 
Imagine being such utter bastards, that you don't allow aid in to starving people.

How is any Government supportive of these cnuts?
 
Amir said:
In in 1982 war in Lebanon, there were heavy protests against the govenment. There are none now (except for those calling the govenment to resign), which goes to show how the October 7 attacks affected people here.
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Imagine how the 75 years of
occupation,
subjugation,
killing,
kidnapping children under military laws and put in administrative detention without trail,
apartheid laws
has affected the Palestinians.
 
Giggsyking said:
Imagine how the 75 years of
occupation,
subjugation,
killing,
kidnapping children under military laws and put in administrative detention without trail,
apartheid laws
has affected the Palestinians.
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Of course.

Which is the tragedy of this region as this situation does not good to anyone other than the extremists who want all or nothing.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There was a terrorist attack in Madrid on the 11th of March of 2004. The attack stemmed from Spain's participation in the Iraq War of 2003, which the majority of the public did not support.
There were elections a few days after the attacks and the Spanish immediately voted out the party that took them to war and voted for a party that immediately withdrew troops from Iraq. That is peaceful. If they had done something more bellicose they would be less peaceful.
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Fortunately for Spain and the people of Spain, their reality is far different. They don't live inside the chaos itself so they could rightfully decide to disconnect themselves from it.
 
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2mufc0 said:
The blindsideness would be so hilarious if the consequences weren't so tragic. Forgetting the 3 quarters of million who were forced out of their homes and then keeping your boot on the neck of the ones who stayed, taking whatever land they have left, killing them and arbitrarily imprisoning them inlcuidng their children amongst other countless inhumane actions . Then to have the brass neck to complain why there have been consequences to this oppression.
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Well said. The absolute ignorance, antipathy and shamelessness is astounding to say the least.
 
Amir said:
So now 25 people represent millions?
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25 here, some there and some elsewhere. You know after all the hundreds of stuff like this we've seen there has to come a point you admit is not a minority anymore. Polls show this, even you, who call yourself a moderate, said in this very thread you were ok with civilians being killed.

It is a sick society.
 
maniak said:
25 here, some there and some elsewhere. You know after all the hundreds of stuff like this we've seen there has to come a point you admit is not a minority anymore. Polls show this, even you, who call yourself a moderate, said in this very thread you were ok with civilians being killed.

It is a sick society.
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It is a sick society. But it wasn't always like that. It's the result of a sick reality, to which Israel is partially responsible.
 
Amir said:
You are judging nine million people based on a few Twitter posts and an answer on a survey. Thats silly and shallow.
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We are judging 68% of 9 million. (roughly 7 Million) that don't want humanitarian aid inside Gaza being complicit of the genocide and people, among children, to die of starvation if need so.

Thats what polling is for
 
Amir said:
It is a sick society. But it wasn't always like that. It's the result of a sick reality, to which Israel is partially responsible.
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As long as it stays a democracy it can change for the better.
 
Denis79 said:
As long as it stays a democracy it can change for the better.
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I'm not optimistic. The anti-democratic powers in the govenment are still working behind the scenes. Netanyahu is still poisoning everyone against themselves and any institution he can - including the courts, the police, etc. He's an agent of chaos and even when he's gone the healing won't start because there are so many of his devoted fans in the policital system right now.

I can't see a way up from this. I really can't. And that's just about Israel and internal issues.
 
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