Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Idxomer]

The port seems like a longer term project. The only thing that will work in the present is a ceasefire that both sides agree to, involving concessions that both sides want.

I don't see how they will reach these concessions.

Israel won't agree to anything that will result in a permanent ceasefire, gradual withdrawal of their forces, or return of people to the north. Hamas and other factions won't agree to anything that doesn't achieve those 3 things in the end.

Maybe it's a bit reductive to say that but all these talks seem only to show that each party is doing something for their people.

 

[Amir]

How are you judging who is more evil out of Israel and Hamas? What measures?

I'm measuring it through one being a terrorist organization with clear intentions - killing Israelis and destroying Israel - and the other being a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

Now, if I compare Gaza (including its citizens) to Israel, that's a different matter.

 

[Amir]

Put some examples of the lies about the IDF? You have a video above about an execution of a surrendering elderly man on camera, this video is leaked after obtaining the camera, one wonder how many of those 30,000 killed in the same way?

After five months, I'm so done with that game.

 

[That_Bloke]

The port seems like a longer term project. The only thing that will work in the present is a ceasefire that both sides agree to, involving concessions that both sides want.

Of course.

As if Israel would let Gaza have any port or airport, or the US carries out something that would directly go against Israel's wishes. Having a port (not controlled by Israel) would undermine the blockade of the Strip.

If the port is indeed a long-term project, it involves the Gaza gas field about 20 miles off the coast.

 

[Dumbstar]

Of course.

As if Israel would let Gaza have any port or airport, or the US carries out something that would directly go against Israel's wishes. Having a port (not controlled by Israel) would undermine the blockade of the Strip.

If the port is indeed long-term project, it involves the Gaza gas field about 20 miles off the coast.

It's the first of many projects FOR Israel when they take over the whole land.

The one thing we can infer from this is that they are about to end this genocide within two months...by killing every Palestinian man, woman, child and baby. AKA the end of Rafah.

 

[That_Bloke]

I'm measuring it through one being a terrorist organization with clear intentions - killing Israelis and destroying Israel - and the other being a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

Now, if I compare Gaza (including its citizens) to Israel, that's a different matter.

As much as I respect your opinion, you really can't do this kind of math. Not anymore.

I'm not absolving Hamas of their crimes and think that it will never acknowledge Israel as a state. But Israelis want to get on with their lives whilst willfully voting for decades for a government that's been actively seeking to extend the settlements, openly stated that it had no interest in a two state solution and undermined any party of the other side seeking a peaceful solution. They're is also perfectly okay with the open-air prison known as Gaza and the appalling Apartheid situation in the West Bank.

The Israelis in their majority don't want a Palestinian State and that was way before 10/7, otherwise Netanyahu would've never been in power for that long. How did you think it was going to end? From a personal experience, you remind me of good natured people living on the sunny side of an utterly unjust system and ask the heavens why the sky suddenly fell on their heads when the other, less lucky side happens to lash out.

Not a dig at you, I've read enough of your posts to know where you stand, but I'm sorry, Israel can't have its cake and eat it.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

 

[Amir]

As much as I respect your opinion, you really can't do this kind of math. Not anymore.

I'm not absolving Hamas of their crimes and think that it will never acknowledge Israel as a state. But Israelis want to get on with their lives whilst willfully voting for decades for a government that's been actively seeking to extend the settlements and openly stated that it had no interest in a two state solution. They're also perfectly okay with the appalling Apartheid situation in the West Bank. The Israelis in their majority don't want a Palestinian State and that was way before 10/7. How do you think it was going to end? From a personal experience you remind me of good willed people living on the sunny side of an under utterly unjust system and ask the heavens when the sky suddenly falls on their heads.

Not a dig at you, I've read enough of your posts to know where you stand, but I'm sorry, Israel can't have its cake and eat it.

Rightly or wrongly, Israelis have been heavily burned by the terrorists attacks following the Oslo accords and then the second intifada. It turned most of them off the idea of a two state solution and made them look for security before anything else when voting. It also made it easier for the right to play on their fears when going to vote. Unfortunately, pessimism towards the Palestenians was probably proven right more times than wrong since the mid-nineties.

It's easy to blame Israelis for their vote, but their reasoning needs to be looked at as well.

 

[Amir]

I've no idea when this poll was done and who performed it, but look at my answer above.

Not believing in peace talks with the Palestenians doesn't mean a person is not peaceful.

 

[That_Bloke]

Rightly or wrongly, Israelis have been heavily burned by the terrorists attacks following the Oslo accords and then the second intifada. It turned most of them off the idea of a two state solution and made them look for security before anything else when voting. It also made it easier for the right to play on their fears when going to vote. Unfortunately, pessimism towards the Palestenians was probably proven right more times than wrong since the mid-nineties.

It's easy to blame Israelis for their vote, but their reasoning needs to be looked at as well.

I fully understand that.

Hamas was, alongside Netanyahu, one of the opponents to the Oslo Accords. It acted accordingly after Ariel Sharon thought it was funny to take a walk to the Temple Mount about two months after the failed Camp David negotiations (I won't insult you by giving the details as of why they failed or why his walk was seen as a provocation). Both factually gave the signal to a disillusioned Palestinian side to launch the Second Intifada.

The same can be said from the Palestinian side. There's no military solution to this conflict and you know it. Israelis will never be safe as long as the Palestinians aren't, and don't have a state of their own. It's the right of any people on this Earth and that's a fact. If the Palestinian have theirs and get giddy about destroying Israel, which I highly doubt, then as you said in the wake of 10/7, "Bomb away".

Until then, Israel is an occupying power, a rogue ethno-state that doesn't even declare its own borders, with an awful defense force when it comes to basic human behavior, and no amount of military, diplomatic and financial support from a disgustingly biased West will save it from itself.

 

[jadaba]

I'm measuring it through one being a terrorist organization with clear intentions - killing Israelis and destroying Israel - and the other being a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

Now, if I compare Gaza (including its citizens) to Israel, that's a different matter.

Are there any cases of a people not being peaceful? Every people on earth fundamentally want to live peacefully. When a people are fine with a 'peace' for them that necessitates the extent of subjugation and killing we have seen, then you must accept there is a serious radicalisation problem across Israeli society.

No people are intrinsically 'unpeaceful', but I struggle to think of a comparable decades-long pattern from a peaceful society of the kind of political policies and bombing campaigns--most of which history tells us are detrimental to the prospect of peace--as we have seen from Israel. If Hamas' intentions are clear after decades of their violence, then after how many more decades of Israel's violence do we consider their intentions equally clear?

 

[2cents]

Ariel Sharon thought it was funny to take a walk to the Temple Mount about two months after the failed Camp David negotiations

On that, I recall a discussion with an Israeli historian, someone with a public profile in Israel who would describe himself as a proud Zionist and who was a bit of a mentor to me - he remarked quite seriously (although that is his default manner) that the Byzantines had the right idea using the Temple Mount as a rubbish dump and that the only sure solution to the problem of Jerusalem is to bulldoze the Old City in its entirety and use it as a car park or something.

 

[rotherham_red]

Put some examples of the lies about the IDF? You have a video above about an execution of a surrendering elderly man on camera, this video is leaked after obtaining the camera, one wonder how many of those 30,000 killed in the same way?

wait,
Why wonder

IDF killed their own hostages despite them waving white flags and surrendering.

Apparently he was deaf, just to top off the depravity that much more.

 

[rotherham_red]

I'm measuring it through one being a terrorist organization with clear intentions - killing Israelis and destroying Israel - and the other being a country with nine million inhabitants, most of whom are peaceful people who just want to get on with their lives.

Now, if I compare Gaza (including its citizens) to Israel, that's a different matter.

Peaceful? The overwhelming majority of Israelis back the actions of the IDF's actions and a substantial portion of the country (approaching one third) are saying they aren't going far enough. That isn't telling me they're tired and want to get on with their lives...

Also, have just come across this:



It's a deeply depraved society, and I'm sorry if that offends.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[gfactor86]

It's a deeply depraved society, and I'm sorry if that offends.

A sweeping generalisation.

it's a secular, democratic and cosmopolitan society where women have the exact same rights as men and gay people can live their lives in the knowledge that they won't be thrown off a building for their sexual preferences.

 

[gfactor86]

Won't be much of an IDF left if they extended the policy to the whole army.

another generalisation.

all armies and the IDF are no different, have bad actors. There is no excuse for it. Remember Abu Gharib?

a huge percentage of the IDF are young kids who have been conscripted, probably terrified that they will lose their own lives fighting a war that they never asked for.

 

[The Corinthian]

A sweeping generalisation.

it's a secular, democratic and cosmopolitan society where women have the exact same rights as men and gay people can live their lives in the knowledge that they won't be thrown off a building for their sexual preferences.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/30/up-to-six-stabbed-at-gay-pride-march-in-jerusalem

Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Six revellers attacked by Yishai Schlissel, recently released from prison after serving 10 years for stabbing three people at gay pride parade in 2005

Also read up on Israel pinkwashing - loads of stuff to read.

 

[Amir]

Peaceful? The overwhelming majority of Israelis back the actions of the IDF's actions and a substantial portion of the country (approaching one third) are saying they aren't going far enough. That isn't telling me they're tired and want to get on with their lives...

it's easy to look at it and think it's outragous when you didn't live through October 7.

Peaceful people getting on with their lives includes not having Hamas just across the border, always threatning with more rockets and terrorist attacks.

As for the poll, I agree it looks bad, but the headline didn't mention what appears inside the article: A survey for Israel's Channel 12 television at the end of January suggested 72 percent of Israelis believed Gaza should not receive any aid while hostages are still being held.

You can say it shouldn't be a factor at all, of course, but there are more layers to this.

 

[gfactor86]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/30/up-to-six-stabbed-at-gay-pride-march-in-jerusalem

Man stabs people at gay pride march in Jerusalem for second time
Six revellers attacked by Yishai Schlissel, recently released from prison after serving 10 years for stabbing three people at gay pride parade in 2005

Also read up on Israel pinkwashing - loads of stuff to read.

Thanks for searching high and low and finding an article from 9 years ago to support whatever point you're trying to make. Well done you.

 

[gfactor86]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-63174835.amp

Gay Palestinian Ahmad Abu Marhia beheaded in West Bank

Palestinians are a depraved society

 

[4bars]

A sweeping generalisation.

it's a secular, democratic and cosmopolitan society where women have the exact same rights as men and gay people can live their lives in the knowledge that they won't be thrown off a building for their sexual preferences.

As long as they are jews. If not the rights are different. Also is a society profoundly ethnoracist and full of genocide abiding people with not a care in the world that kids dies of starvation...in the millions. And is a generalization, but a correct one with statistical numbers on hand

 

[Roane]

it's easy to look at it and think it's outragous when you didn't live through October 7.

Peaceful people getting on with their lives includes not having Hamas just across the border, always threatning with more rockets and terrorist attacks.

As for the poll, I agree it looks bad, but the headline didn't mention what appears inside the article: A survey for Israel's Channel 12 television at the end of January suggested 72 percent of Israelis believed Gaza should not receive any aid while hostages are still being held.

You can say it shouldn't be a factor at all, of course, but there are more layers to this.

It's easy to think 7 August is outrageous when you don't live as a Palestinian.

Since the start of 2023 ALONE, at least 483 Palestinians have been killed and more than 12,769 injured by Israeli forces and settlers in the occupied West Bank.

Since 1967, 750,000 to 1 million Palestinians have been arrested by Israel. As of October 2023, Israel held over 5,200 Palestinians prisoners, including at least 170 children. (By November 2023, the number of Palestinian prisoners, including suspected militants and Gazans had increased to 10,000.)

But Hamas....

 

[Roane]

A sweeping generalisation.

it's a secular, democratic and cosmopolitan society where women have the exact same rights as men and gay people can live their lives in the knowledge that they won't be thrown off a building for their sexual preferences.

It's true people won't be thrown of buildings for their sexual preferences. For example:


A CBS News investigation has found that many accused American pedophiles flee to Israel, and bringing them to justice can be difficult.
Jewish Community Watch (JCW), an American organization that tracks accused pedophiles, has been trying for years to find Karow and help bring him to justice.

JCW says Karow and other wanted men and women have been able to exploit a right known as the Law of Return, whereby any Jewish person can move to Israel and automatically gain citizenship.

Since the small organization started tracking accused pedophiles in 2014, it says more than 60 have fled from the U.S. to Israel. Given its limited resources to identify these individuals, JCW says the actual number is likely much larger.

"In Israel, tens of thousands of pedophiles operate on a daily basis without any problem," said Eliran Malki, head of the Matzof Association.

Disgraced Hollywood director Brett Ratner, who stands accused by multiple women of rape and sexual harassment, revealed last week he relocated to Israel just days after being a special guest of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the UN General Assembly in New York.

Hollywood director, Bryan Singer, who moved to Israel several years ago after being accused of rape and sexual assault of several minors.

head of Magen for Jewish Communities, an Israeli NGO that tracks sexual predators, revealed that “there are about 100 rabbis, teachers, and other figures who have been accused, charged or convicted of sexual abuse overseas and subsequently found refuge in Israel.”



Tomas Zeron, who is wanted in connection to the disappearance of 43 students in southwestern Mexico in 2014.

Zeron is also accused of embezzling over $50 million and torturing suspects.

western media reports revealed earlier this year that Israeli authorities are “unlikely” to extradite Zeron as “payback” for Mexico's support of the Palestinian cause and their approval of UN inquiries into Israeli war crimes against Palestinians.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Peaceful people getting on with their lives includes not having Hamas just across the border, always threatning with more rockets and terrorist attacks.

Yes, I know. You were posting here months ago about how you didn't feel bad that Palestinian children would be bombed, as long as it guaranteed your safety and the safety of IDF soldiers.
This is just a manipulation of language and not what anyone actually understands as 'peaceful' and 'wanting to get on.'

 

[That_Bloke]

On that, I recall a discussion with an Israeli historian, someone with a public profile in Israel who would describe himself as a proud Zionist and who was a bit of a mentor to me - he remarked quite seriously (although that is his default manner) that the Byzantines had the right idea using the Temple Mount as a rubbish dump and that the only sure solution to the problem of Jerusalem is to bulldoze the Old City in its entirety and use it as a car park or something.

I would nuke it (after evacuating the inhabitants), if it were in my hands. Then build there a nuclear power plant based on Chernobyl's.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Beyond that point about peace, the terms of this recent discussion are a bit strange. You can't define Israel as the people who live there and then compare them to Hamas (a military/political organization) as they are not the same thing. You would have to compare Israel to Palestine. You can compare Israel to Hamas if you are defining Israel as the state and its political/military goals.

The latter is what people are usually talking about, regardless of any issues that may be present in Israeli society.

 

[Amir]

Yes, I know. You were posting here months ago about how you didn't feel bad that Palestinian children would be bombed, as long as it guaranteed your safety and the safety of IDF soldiers.
This is just a manipulation of language and not what anyone actually understands as 'peaceful' and 'wanting to get on.'

It might not be what someone not living in the region understands. But I guess there's a difference between actually being here to living elsewhere and thinking you can lecture others about what is happening here.

 

[africanspur]

It might not be what someone not living in the region understands. But I guess there's a difference between actually being here to living elsewhere and thinking you can lecture others about what is happening here.

With respect Amir, is the point not that basically any people on the planet are 'peaceful' as long as it's on their terms?

I'm sure the Russians would be classed as peaceful people if Ukraine and the baltics just acquiesed and did what they were told. I'm sure the Afrikaner south Africans would be peaceful people if the black south Africans just stayed quiet and did what they were told.

 

[Idxomer]

Beyond that point about peace, the terms of this recent discussion are a bit strange. You can't define Israel as the people who live there and then compare them to Hamas (a military/political organization) as they are not the same thing. You would have to compare Israel to Palestine. You can compare Israel to Hamas if you are defining Israel as the state and its political/military goals.

The latter is what people are usually talking about, regardless of any issues that may be present in Israeli society.

Yeah, I don't know how it moved to be about a comparison between the average citizen and Hamas. It was obvious that the poster meant the government/illegal settlers/the IDF who are all no better than Hamas in either their actions or goals.

 

[Idxomer]

Tunnels, Tunnels everywhere.

 

[2mufc0]

Tunnels, Tunnels everywhere.

You can set a post apocalyptical film here.

One of the great IOF pastimes to just blow everything up.

 

[Raven]

it's easy to look at it and think it's outragous when you didn't live through October 7.

Peaceful people getting on with their lives includes not having Hamas just across the border, always threatning with more rockets and terrorist attacks.

As for the poll, I agree it looks bad, but the headline didn't mention what appears inside the article: A survey for Israel's Channel 12 television at the end of January suggested 72 percent of Israelis believed Gaza should not receive any aid while hostages are still being held.

You can say it shouldn't be a factor at all, of course, but there are more layers to this.

Disgusting. Calling a bunch of genocide supporters "peaceful people" is utterly abhorrent. It would be like me coming in here calling the average Nazi peaceful. It's preposterous.

 

[Amir]

Disgusting. Calling a bunch of genocide supporters "peaceful people" is utterly abhorrent. It would be like me coming in here calling the average Nazi peaceful. It's preposterous.

You are judging nine million people based on a few Twitter posts and an answer on a survey. Thats silly and shallow.

 

[Raven]

You are judging nine million people based on a few Twitter posts and an answer on a survey. Thats silly and shallow.

Multiple surveys. I haven't seen a single survey since October 7th that shows Israeli citizens want a ceasefire.

 

[Sweet Square]

Peaceful people getting on with their lives

Israelis gathered on a hilltop outside the town of Sderot on Monday to watch the bombardment of Gaza.

.

 

[VorZakone]

Tunnels, Tunnels everywhere.

And who will pay for reconstruction?

 

[Amir]

.

So now 25 people represent millions?

 

[B20]

I remember thinking after the first attacks from Hamas that it looks difficult for Israel to maintain their usual 1:20 ratio of deaths in the conflict.

I didn't imagine at the time they would go this far to exceed it.

 

[Denis79]

You are judging nine million people based on a few Twitter posts and an answer on a survey. Thats silly and shallow.

Israel is a democracy, Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Herzog and many more other genocidal maniacs were put in power by the people. But I agree with you can not judge all 9 million, some are surely against the monstrous violence. But considering what is going on, where are the protests? Where are all the calls for humanity. Very silent from the nine million to be fair.