Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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It's good to see that there is proper journalism going on occasionally.
No you see we're massacring innocent people to stop the massacre of innocent people.
That's a bit of an unfair depiction.
The Allies genuinely couldn't entirely "denazify" Germany because there wouldn't be anyone to keep the country going, especially when about 3.5M German soldiers died in WWII. In consequence, aside from the high profile Nazis, especially the former high-ranking SS and the ones who had a hand in the Holocaust, or war crimes/crimes against humanity, they had to let the rest go. It's also easy to judge with the benefit of decades of hindsight and from the comfort of our armchair who was a Nazi and why.
There's been a decades long and really quite unique effort from Germany to acknowledge and atone for its past crimes, especially against the Jews, to judge former high ranking Nazis, and nurture the remembrance culture (the famous "nie wieder", "never again" in English), something that Japan for example, never did. It's taught in all German schools so the next generations of Germans will always be aware of their own past. It should be recognized and praised as such.
The problem is that it turned into self-flagellation and absolute subservience which blinds Germany to any wrong Israel could do. In many aspects, the German support to Israel is even more unquestioning and unconditional than the US' or the UK's. After 10/7, they went as far as cancelling any kind of exhibition, award ceremony that included a Palestinian artist or intellectual or referred in any way to Palestine. Wearing the keffieh or holding the Palestinian flag could get you into trouble. It's insane and what's even more insane is the apathy/absence of reaction from other democracies. As of now, while Israel is standing before the ICJ and charged of genocide, you have articles in the mainstream German media emphazing about mass rapes committed by Hamas and other takes trying to justify Israel's military doctrine and actions in Gaza.
It seems that with Germany, it's always "either or", there's no middle ground. Some newspapers (the "Freitag" for example) and intellectuals try put the blind support to Israel into question, but there's very, very few of them. You also have to take into account the German far-right like the AfD lying in ambush and using the current events to push their racist, nationalistic and anti-muslim agenda. Just like Marine Le Pen and her "Rassemblement National" do in France or Geert Wilders in the Netherlands. Merkel's politically courageous gesture to take in Syrian refugees in 2015 spectacularly backfired and generated an enormous amount of resentment that fuels the far-right movements in Germany to this day.
There's been a latent and growing anti-muslim/arab sentiment in Europe and other parts of the world (US and India for example) for decades alongside a slow but sure slide to the (far) right that can't be denied. It's now laid bare before our own eyes.
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Netanyahu has been trying to spin something along the lines of “palestinians/arabs are the real Nazis“ for years. Now he got a friend to help him with it.
They are cartoonishly bad at this propaganda. It's embarrassing for them. Hopefully most see right through it.
There was a simple solution to denazify Germany quickly, voluntary emigration to a bunch of European countries with some financial incentives to accept them. The Soviets and the Americans should've then given the country to the groups the nazis oppressed in the previous 12 years and let them run it.
It's because they've been used to the West accepting their propaganda without a question. They have become complacent and still a lot of this nonsense gets accepted by the media. Fortunately, the general public in a lot of countries seems less susceptible this time.
“Israel does not want to be responsible for Gaza in the long term, but the question is how do you make sure that Gaza stays demilitarized?” said a senior Israeli military official. “It’s a real dilemma."
Same official then says: "The only way to control a geographic area is to control what’s going in and out."
Followed by: "In the next few decades, Israel needs to control the borders because of the security issues."
So, Israel would be responsible for Gaza in the long term.
An incoherent and maddening response of 'what we've been doing for decades, but I swear bro this time it'll be truly impenetrable and it'll work'. Their imagination or vision of peace is unable to even extend to the idea of Palestinian statehood rather than permanent occupation as a solution.
There are few videos like this.
Well, he's dead so who knows what he thinks about Israel?
In a 1997 speech on the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People, Mandela reaffirmed his support for Palestinian rights.
"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians."
I am sure there is propaganda, but I am also sure sheer lack of interest is actually a much bigger factor.
The interest has nothing to do with the agenda of the media outlets. You are mixing two different things.
His grandkids aren't Nelson Mandela though are they.
There is a tendency for some people to think propaganda and various dark arts are the reason why people in the west are fairly apathetic about events in the Middle East. While propaganda does of course happen, it's not IMO the main reason why nothing changes. People in the West don't care enough outside of the occasional event, to put political pressure on leaders. Why would they? The Middle East has been a shitshow for as long most people have been alive. If it's not Gaza, it's Syria (and nobody in the UK wanted to intervene in Syria, remember?). If it's not Syria, it's Lebanon. If it's not Lebanon it's Yemen. An endless parade of misery which there is no solution, so the best we can hope for is stability.
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Meaning, the situation with Israel today, re the argument being advanced re: allegations of genocide. Obviously, since this is what is being discussed in relation to his grandkids. And nobody knows what Mandela thinks about that.
Mandela had great moral authority. The grandkids may or may not, I don't know., presumably they would try to trade on their own and not that of their famous granddad. The ANC sure as hell squandered theirs a long time ago.
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It is in my opinion only natural for human beings fighting for freedom to side with the victim. It is pretty clear that Mandela's stance on Palestine wouldn't be any different than it was while he was alive. He would only speak even more loudly.
Wat.
Probably we can find out through his various speeches and writings on the matter when he was alive because, despite what some people are desperate to portray, 7th October 2023 is not when this conflict started?
I'm not really that bothered to be totally honest what Mandela's grandson thinks but I'm also not that bothered by the 'moral authority' of the Western countries either, or their attempts to whitewash Mandela and use him (as Piers did and what started this whole conversation) to attack other downtrodden populations, seeing as:
-He was on the American terror watch list until 2008, needing special dispensation to enter the country each time he visited
-The USA, UK and West Germany (as well as Israel of course) were among Apartheid South Africa's biggest supporters and among the last holdouts of this support
-Mandela unapologetically took up violence as a means to achieve the ANC's goals, when he felt that non-violent means were no longer achieving their aims
Its very comforting though to use Mandela's spectre in the West though to attack any resistance movement which isn't completely pacifist, whole totally whitewashing what Mandela was and indeed what the West was to Apartheid South Africa as well.
Exactly, struggles are different and Palestinians have had a lot of leaders. Most them have been either assassinated or put in prison for life.
Metropolitan Police tweeted that they're looking into this speech.
^Also in the Axios article:
All this "Biden is trying hard but is ignored" is just a bunch of lies. Biden and the US are behind Israel actions or they will not bypass the congress to send arms to israel and give extra funding.
All these tweets that i read here and there is for local consumption that are 100% LIES aimed to the elctorate that they are horrified with what happens in Israel and they want to convinced them that Biden is not behind but opposing
LIES LIES LIES feckING LIES
Because the situation for the palestinians has improved since Mandela died.
You can be as disgeneous as you want outwards, but inwards you know exactly how mandela would position himself nowadays
Spoken like a true Sovereign.
Relying on the British government to identify any form of oppression isn't the best idea.
Israel never recognized the hague tribunal, so no international law would be broken. Not that they would care anyway if so