Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

JagUTD said:
Why are we once again going over what happened to the Israelis as if being brutally murdered by deranged people is somehow better than being raped, beheaded or whatever else by deranged people?

The truth is we may never know the full story about the horrific events of that day. Entire families were killed, so who was left to tell the story? What was recorded and what those that survived or were captured have told is enough.
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Because of you're going to brutally murder and massacre thousands of innocent women on children based on half truths and made up narratives you need to answer for your crimes too.
 
The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?


 
Frosty said:
I say this with respect, but do be very careful of falling down the rabbit hole here.

Somehow I have been here for nearly 17 years, but I have seen a few posters embrace conspiracy theorising to their detriment.

Hamas are awful, shown by their treatment of other Palestinians who opposed them following the 2005 elections.

It is perfectly possible to accept that and acknowledge the historical role of Netanyahu and others in the government in emboldening the group to make a two state settlement impossible, and it is also possible to acknowledge that oppressing millions of people can lead to a number of them wanting to fight back.

What I would say is this - assume everything Hamas has been accused of is true. That to me would still not in any way justify the collective punishment of Palestinians, the acts of settlers endorsed by the Israeli government in the West Bank, the endless occupation, let alone what has happened in Gaza in the last month. That's the key point for me.

It doesn't matter what Hamas did. I'm much more concerned with testing the veracity of claims like Hamas controlling hospitals so making them a "legitimate target".
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I asked the other day if the claims were solely Israeli or not. Didn't get an answer but did have a look into it myself and there are plenty or reliable sources that support the claims, from the UN to The Guardian.
 
Roane said:
Because of you're going to brutally murder and massacre thousands of innocent women on children based on half truths and made up narratives you need to answer for your crimes too.
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Do you think the Israeli response would have been any different though?
 
Roane said:
I will wonder what would happen if a general poster suggested a staff member had an agenda instead of engaging with what was posted. An attack the post not the poster kind of thing?
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When I posted that you had just, laughably, accused @VorZakone of all posters of guarding a “narrative”. @VorZakone who basically functions as the Cafe aggregator in these threads and posts from a wider range of sources, reflecting a wider range of perspectives, than anyone else (thank you @VorZakone).

Speaking for myself I certainly have my biases as does everyone else here, so if you discern a particular agenda on my part you are free to note it.

I find your own posts in this thread and the other related one to be reflective, whether consciously or otherwise, of a conspiratorial approach to thinking about questions concerning Jews, antisemitism, and Israel. Cumulatively they suggest to me an agenda to downplay the seriousness of the dangers Jews face in this world, hint that Jews themselves may be over-stating them or perhaps responsible in some way, and by extension absolve the actual perpetrators of attacks on Jews of responsibility for their actions. This is disregarding certain instances where you have just blatantly posted fake stuff (one old example here).

There is of course a possibility that you are genuinely ignorant of how your pattern of posting might appear to others here, in which case you should try to understand why some of us don’t really buy the “I’m just into alternative viewpoints, who knows if I’m right or wrong?” type explanation.
 
Pintu said:
The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?


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Just watched it, and yes the translations are complete nonsense and not in any way accurate.
 
Pintu said:
The Israeli embassy posted this woman saying Hamas forced the Palestinians to stay put in the north.

Most replies are pretending the embassy faked the subtitles?


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Pretty sure it was reported at the time that Hamas' had told people to stay put.
 
Roane said:
I hate Hamas more than people know. I have my reasons and I won't go into it here. Suffice to say Id happily shoot Hamas leadership.

The issue for me, and always has been, is narratives that are adopted. Not just here but are actively taught. I think I mentioned before that as a young kid I was told off for not accepting Richard was a Lionheart and Aladdin was evil. That was the narrative of my history lesson days in school.

Maybe that's why I don't take things on face value or never have. I have views on everything from Ghandi to MLK to Imran Khan in Pakistan. I don't just take any of the narrative.

Could I be wrong? Sure probably am. But it's at least worth investigating some elements.

The problem here is as cnutish as Hamas clearly are the IDF is equal if not worse.
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I'm not saying you cannot have views. I'm just saying that even if everything initially reported about the 7/10 attacks were true, that would not justify what is happening and will happen.
 
The Corinthian said:
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Taking a question on the issue, Netanyahu reiterates first that, after the war, Israel will retain “overall security control, including the capacity to go in whenever we want to eliminate terrorists who may pop up again.”

“I will tell you what there will not be. There will not be Hamas,” he says. “There will also not be a civil authority that educates its children to hate Israel, to kill Israelis, to eliminate the State of Israel. There cannot be an authority that pays the families of murderers [amounts] based on the number they murdered. There cannot be an authority whose leader still has not condemned the terrible [October 7] massacre 30 days later,” the premier says, referring to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. “That cannot be.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...estinian-authoritys-return-to-gaza-after-war/
 
Frosty said:
Taking a question on the issue, Netanyahu reiterates first that, after the war, Israel will retain “overall security control, including the capacity to go in whenever we want to eliminate terrorists who may pop up again.”

“I will tell you what there will not be. There will not be Hamas,” he says. “There will also not be a civil authority that educates its children to hate Israel, to kill Israelis, to eliminate the State of Israel. There cannot be an authority that pays the families of murderers [amounts] based on the number they murdered. There cannot be an authority whose leader still has not condemned the terrible [October 7] massacre 30 days later,” the premier says, referring to PA President Mahmoud Abbas. “That cannot be.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...estinian-authoritys-return-to-gaza-after-war/
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Yep, Gaza doesn’t need any of that.
What Gaza needs are the IDF, the Israeli government and settlers.
 
nimic said:
My man, it's right there under the tweet:

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I think neonatal babies dying from a lack of oxygen is the real issue here pal. (And a medical crew member trying to help these babies being killed).
 
nimic said:
Why didn't you post the correction? Did you miss it, or was it deliberate?
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I didn’t see it. All the tweets I post are things I see on my phone so it’s never linear or in order.

Edit: for example, I can’t see Twitter threads on my phone. I only see the starting tweet.
 
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I defended Israel in this thread. I was wrong. No justification for this whatsoever.
 
nimic said:
Do you not see the potential issue here? My point wasn't that I am pro baby-murder. His explanation makes sense, but it's weird to me how you both went straight there in response.
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Nimic, I in no way am saying that you're a pro baby murderer, I've known you on this forum for quite some time and I know you're impartial in most things. My issue isn't the numbers but more the actual act of targeting hospitals by Israel, anyway it's all futile as I'm sure Israel will release intelligence showing that those babies were probably training to be suicide bombers.
 
nimic said:
Do you not see the potential issue here? My point wasn't that I am pro baby-murder. His explanation makes sense, but it's weird to me how you both went straight there in response.
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I was helpfully reminded when I was making the same point about ‘40 beheaded babies’ that I shouldn’t quibble over the number or method.
 
RedTiger said:
Nimic, I in no way am saying that you're a pro baby murderer, I've known you on this forum for quite some time and I know you're impartial in most things. My issue isn't the numbers but more the actual act of targeting hospitals by Israel, anyway it's all futile as I'm sure Israel will release intelligence showing that those babies were probably training to be suicide bombers.
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I can understand the sentiment; Israel is certainly committing war crimes. I just think particularly in this instance we all need to be as vigilant as possible to avoid misunderstandings. Israel's actions are bad enough on their own that we don't need to give people the opportunity to go "look, they're exaggerating, that's what we said all along".

The Corinthian said:
I was helpfully reminded when I was making the same point about ‘40 beheaded babies’ that I shouldn’t quibble over the number or method.
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And they were wrong then. Don't turn it into some crusade to be wrong in return.
 
JPRouve said:
It was a french department without the need for quoting marks and I wouldn't describe it as a (military)occupation. Now the point that you are making is in my opinion different and exposes the principal of equality that France was claiming, there were caste systems where some men, europeans and jews had more voting rights than women, muslims or indigenous people depending on where they resided or their function. That issue of voting rights existed everywhere including the Metropole and was only fixed in 1958.

On that topic there is a strange exception in Corsica, women had the right to vote since the 16th century while everywhere else in France, they had to wait until 1945.
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I only put it between quoting marks because I used a french word in a sentence written in english. Nothing else, really.

I see now what you meant and truly appreciate your insight about the internal disfunctions of the fourth republic.
 
Frosty said:
I say this with respect, but do be very careful of falling down the rabbit hole here.

Somehow I have been here for nearly 17 years, but I have seen a few posters embrace conspiracy theorising to their detriment.

Hamas are awful, shown by their treatment of other Palestinians who opposed them following the 2005 elections.

It is perfectly possible to accept that and acknowledge the historical role of Netanyahu and others in the government in emboldening the group to make a two state settlement impossible, and it is also possible to acknowledge that oppressing millions of people can lead to a number of them wanting to fight back.

What I would say is this - assume everything Hamas has been accused of is true. That to me would still not in any way justify the collective punishment of Palestinians, the acts of settlers endorsed by the Israeli government in the West Bank, the endless occupation, let alone what has happened in Gaza in the last month. That's the key point for me.

It doesn't matter what Hamas did. I'm much more concerned with testing the veracity of claims like Hamas controlling hospitals so making them a "legitimate target".
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Agreed. And as if "only" murdering 1400 in their attack is somehow ok if systematic rape (and then execution) didn't happen. How widespread it was is hard to currently ascertain but it seems certain some occurred.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-evidence-of-sexual-violence-in-hamas-attacks
 
Halftrack said:
I feel confident in stating that Israel has surpassed the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th by orders of magnitude.
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Multiple people here and elsewhere have said that the death of thousands of men, women, and children due to bombing Gaza is a preferable alternative to risking Israeli soldiers' lives.

The soldiers shelling hospitals and sniping patients in the neck. These are the precious lives that must not be risked.
 
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Halftrack said:
I feel confident in stating that Israel has surpassed the evil and cruelty shown by Hamas on October 7th by orders of magnitude.
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100%. They have become the evil they fought against. An example of hurt people transferring that hurt on to other people. There must be some studies somewhere or hopefully in the future that looks at the psychological aspect of the Israel cruelty towards the Palestinians and whether there is/was either an element of enacting the revenge that they couldn't enact in WW2 or whether like you see sometimes with abuse survivors, re-enacting that abuse on to others. Not saying all Israelis but the ones that are pro violence. Its also why a lot of people can see that the cycle of violence may never end as the hurt people now i.e. the Palestinians may be likely to do/ have already done the same to the Israelis

I'm also intrigued how this conforms with Judaism which I admittedly know little about.
 
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