Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.

He was right.

The combination of the religious nutters + the belief that the holocaust should give us special dispensation to do whatever we want to whoever we want has turned parts of Israel and Israeli society to totally deplorable.
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That's courageous of him to speak up as well as to act during 10.7 despite his age. Atleast he did the right thing.

Sad state of affairs in Israel based on what you are stating.
 
Roane said:
I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.

A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.

I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.

This is a hero to the National security minister.
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Disgusting, vomiting emoji.
 
Roane said:
I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.

A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.

I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.

This is a hero to the National security minister.
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You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.

He is, however, one for Ben Gvir. And the fact that this scum ia part of the government - and has this important role, no less - is part of the disaster that is Netanyahu.

But it doesn"t make him part of the majority or anywhere near.
 
Amir said:
You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.

He is, however, one for Ben Gvir. And the fact that this scum ia part of the government - and has this important role, no less - is part of the disaster that is Netanyahu.

But it doesn"t make him part of the majority or anywhere near.
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Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
 
Roane said:
Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
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Don't be thick.

He didn't say that Goldstein didn't have supporters, just that those don't make up for the majority of the Israelis. And as far as far I've know, he's not trying to describe the Israeli society and its government as faultless. Far from it.

You're barking up the wrong tree.
 
That_Bloke said:
He didn't say that Goldstein didn't have supporters, just that those don't make up for the majority of the Israelis.
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I don't think Roane said that either.


Israelis have become more right-wing over the years. Opinion polling and electoral results all attest to that. This is the process by which you might end up with domestic terrorist supporters in the government. Not "Netanyahu = BAD."
 
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Roane said:
Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
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No matter how you twist it, it is a minority. Racist people are not. Goldstein worshippers are.
 
Giggsyking said:
43% of the vote did not label him as a terrorist. Its crazy if you are unable to label someone like him as a terrorist.
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Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
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Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.
 
Roane said:
Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.
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Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
 
marktan said:
Get out of here with that crap, I'm tired of having to listen to you spin words whilst at the same time be completely silent (and silently happy) about the hundreds dying in Gaza every day. 3700 children. Fewer future Hamas members right?

Where the feck did I justify violence against civillian Jews? I said people are angry and the largely peaceful protests will turn more physical. Where the feck did I mention civillian Jews? I've been on protests and guess what, there's always a large presence of anti zionist Jews. At these marches, the last group anyone would target is them. The target at these previously peaceful protests will be the police. Your reduction of everyone to rabid Jew haters is disgusting.

What I do hate is a large section of pro Israelis like you who will focus on anything but the actual hundreds of people dying in Gaza every day, because silently you're happy to see it. You see it everyday all over twitter. Harvard students, protesters saying a chant, taking down posters, we feel scared, Im pro Palestinian but hamas (bill ackman)... everything but the people dying. Silent condoning it, as though the rest of the world can't see it. Everybody has to condemn Hamas, but not once do any of these people ask for protection for 1m kids, close to 4000 already dead. That's what people are angry about too. Having to listen to shit like that from you everyday.
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Jews will obviously be the majority target of this violence and hatred. See statements by the FBI etc. And the evidence all over the world, that it's targeting Jews. And the bold is more of the despicable gaslighting going on. We won't target you if you are an 'anti zionist' and 'good jew' and agree with our opinion. Ergo, other Jews are valid targets, because they support Israel. All the Jews need to do is get on their knees and submit, and we might not be violent or anti semitic towards them.

Harvard students taking down posters are SCARED? Some of the most privileged kids in the country, are so scared they are ripping down posters and assaulting Jews on campus. Sounds like they are anything but scared to me. Good on Bill Ackman and others if they don't want to employ these scoundrels.

Nobody [or very few] are 'happy to see people dying' and we don't 'silently condone it' any more than you 'silently condone' killings in other wars. Rather we are simply less hypocritical, and generally admit that we don't care about people around the world dying because we can do nothing about it and it doesn't interfere with our comfortable daily lives. We implicitly understand that if you attack a major power, they are going to react horribly and with major force, as they always have done throughout history.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
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You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.
 
Amir said:
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
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I doubt 10% of Israelis even know who Goldstein is. I barely do. It's probably just a terribly constructed poll.
 
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
 
Where @Amir is likely correct is that while Israel is like most countries leaning toward conservatism more than leftism, the far right and religious extremists have no actual way to survive on their own in the Knesset. Their current existence is due to the fact that Likud isn't strong enough by itself to comfortably beat their normal opposition which led them to create a coalition with these fringe movements but by doing that they also opened the door to these people being able to air their ideologies in mainstream media when you are able to air these things out, you will convince a subset of the population.
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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Possibly, but it has succeeded in highlighting the West's hypocrisy. Crocodile tears and aid for the people of Ukraine, bombs for the people of Gaza.
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.
 
JPRouve said:
No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.
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Obviously, but for Putin, what an opportunity right? Takes so much focus off what he's doing in Ukraine. Also, given the warm relations with Iran, could this been seen as severe trouble making in that region that essentially benefits both?
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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I should clarify, "what's going on currently", not what's been going on in Israel for decades.
 
Giggsyking said:
You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.
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He's not talked about. They don't teach about him in schools, they don't do TV documentaries on him. I know who he is because I was already a teenager when he performed the massacre, but I am not sure how much I would have known about it otherwise because he just is not mentioned much in most normal communities here. I am sure most people know the name and not much more.

As for what the people in charge of the poll did and should have done, I do not know.
 
JPRouve said:
Where @Amir is likely correct is that while Israel is like most countries leaning toward conservatism more than leftism, the far right and religious extremists have no actual way to survive on their own in the Knesset. Their current existence is due to the fact that Likud isn't strong enough by itself to comfortably beat their normal opposition which led them to create a coalition with these fringe movements but by doing that they also opened the door to these people being able to air their ideologies in mainstream media when you are able to air these things out, you will convince a subset of the population.
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Indeed. Though Ben Gvir has been able to air his ideology in the media for a while because he made sure he does it in a more reserve way than in the past and due to irresponsible media outlets focusing on him being a "good show'.
 
Amir said:
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
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The France defence league or whatever they are called venerate and celebrate him every year.

Groups in America do like wise.

IF 10% of Israelis venerate him that's roughly what of about 8million?

A non entity this guy isn't. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous
 
By the way, why do Israelis refer to Palestinians as "the Arabs"? In so many street interviews I see this pattern.
 
Amir said:
He's not talked about. They don't teach about him in schools, they don't do TV documentaries on him. I know who he is because I was already a teenager when he performed the massacre, but I am not sure how much I would have known about it otherwise because he just is not mentioned much in most normal communities here. I am sure most people know the name and not much more.

As for what the people in charge of the poll did and should have done, I do not know.
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There is literally films and books about this guy. Upto 10k people reported to visiting his shrine on the day. News reports. Newspaper articles. Opinion pieces. Interviews with his old man. Prayers in certain synagogues, around the world.
 
marktan said:
Whatever, make up scared monsters and that the whole world is against you if you feel that's reason enough to commit genocide against a population. I have never born any I'll hatred to random Jews, I would happily protect any Jewish people targeted by any viotrol I encounter in my own life, but yes I do actively dislike pro-Israel people, whether they happen to be Jewish or not. That's not submitting, that's showing you have some compassion for people suffering and not being genocide condoning maniacs. It doesn't matter if you're Jewish christinan or whatever. It's well below the standard for any decent human being.

And haha that last paragraph. So you don't care if the Palestinians get slaughtered. You're as bad as Hamas supporters, who want to see Israelis killed. Tell me, what's the difference between supporting Hamas and Israel and the IDF, when both commit mass murder against civillian? One kills way more than the other. Well it's good to know you're a genocide condoner, I bet the day a ceasefire is announced will be a sad day for you and other pro Israel nutters. I have no interest in discussing anything with you because everything you say is a veil to your real position - kill more Palestinians.
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So you happen to 'dislike' the vast majority of Jews. And the only way you'll stop disliking them is, if they abandon a country that is the last bastion against Jewish hatred, and align with your views. What do you think that makes you?

Not caring doesn't mean you want something to happen. I don't care if a random guy in America has a heart attack tomorrow and dies due to the poor healthcare system for the poor. It will happen, and it happens every day. I don't want a random guy in America to have a heart attack and die tomorrow. But my brain simply doesn't have the bandwidth to deal with every inevitable. I don't want them to 'kill more palestinians' - it's a ridiculous statement.

My most extreme view is that they should do a Kuwait at this point, and just get rid of them. Which is indeed a war crime, but it's more humane than this.
 
Amir said:
A lot more than 10% know. But many would not.
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Unless something has shifted from when I left in 2001, he's just a complete non entity, at least amongst younger people my age. I'd never heard of him until later. Those younger people will be in their 30s now like myself, and likely have only heard of him through Smotrich rambles or something (and then most will automatically think he's a crank). Perhaps older people are more aware.
 
owlo said:
So you happen to 'dislike' the vast majority of Jews. And the only way you'll stop disliking them is, if they abandon a country that is the last bastion against Jewish hatred, and align with your views. What do you think that makes you?

Not caring doesn't mean you want something to happen. I don't care if a random guy in America has a heart attack tomorrow and dies due to the poor healthcare system for the poor. It will happen, and it happens every day. I don't want a random guy in America to have a heart attack and die tomorrow. But my brain simply doesn't have the bandwidth to deal with every inevitable. I don't want them to 'kill more palestinians' - it's a ridiculous statement.

My most extreme view is that they should do a Kuwait at this point, and just get rid of them. Which is indeed a war crime, but it's more humane than this.
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To what end, though? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by this? Get rid of who, and from where precidely?
 
owlo said:
if they abandon a country that is the last bastion against Jewish hatred,
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I keep seeing you and others make this argument, but has anyone in this thread suggested that the Jews should completely depart Israel? The argument that everyone is making against the Israeli government is that they should stop committing war crimes and persecuting Palestinians, but I haven't seen anyone call for anything other than a 2 state solution.
 
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