Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Fair play to the UN in this case. But this provided a bit of grim humour today.

 
Drizzle said:
What do I 'gain' from my posts? What a weird point. I'm just doing what you're doing. Talking about a difficult situation. Obviously from a slightly different perspective. Sorry if my view upsets you or bores you. I know the majority of posters here probably disagree with me, goodness knows I get shouted down quite a bit, but hopefully we can broadly accept differing views. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
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Your posts just make no sense from a consistency perspective, you keep essentially defending Israel and won't let anyone say anything negative about them without reminding everyone of Hamas, but then you also post saying you completely disagree with what Israel are doing and think it's horrific.
 
Drizzle said:
Fair play to the UN in this case. But this provided a bit of grim humour today.

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UN is a joke for that and for many other reasons. And the sad reality is that it would be the only viable option for a solution in Palestine if Israel accepted their full supervision in the area
 
Drizzle said:
What do I 'gain' from my posts? What a weird point. I'm just doing what you're doing. Talking about a difficult situation. Obviously from a slightly different perspective. Sorry if my view upsets you or bores you. I know the majority of posters here probably disagree with me, goodness knows I get shouted down quite a bit, but hopefully we can broadly accept differing views. Otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
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The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.

It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
 
Conor said:
Your posts just make no sense from a consistency perspective, you keep essentially defending Israel and won't let anyone say anything negative about them without reminding everyone of Hamas, but then you also post saying you completely disagree with what Israel are doing and think it's horrific.
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They make perfect sense my friend. Because that is essentially my position. I really hate the way Israel is going about things, but I also push back on the idea that this is a unique never seen before evil, that Israel is the only actor to blame in this whole mess, and I get upset about language that is unjustifiably extreme. There it is.

As F Scott Fitzgerald said, 'The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'. Or second rate intelligence in my case probably.
 
Fear not all you women and children in Gaza City, the Israelis are coming to liberate you from Hamas.
 
Drizzle said:
They make perfect sense my friend. Because that is essentially my position. I really hate the way Israel is going about things, but I also push back on the idea that this is a unique never seen before evil, that Israel is the only actor to blame in this whole mess, and I get upset about language that is unjustifiably extreme. There it is.

As F Scott Fitzgerald said, 'The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function'. Or second rate intelligence in my case probably.
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But you keep listing the worst countries ever to point out that Israel aren't unique, you surely see how ridiculous this is?
 
I literally said that the solution is the same as done as by Alexander the Great. Starve them, let them
 
Ainu said:
The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.

It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
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OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.
 
Alexander the Great got the area, by siege, by not attacking. By waiting till they are left with no food. After then Alexander won the place.

This is what is happening know.
 
Ainu said:
The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.

It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
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Its perfectly rational to condemn the Hamas attack, acknowledge that it was always destined for far more violence and displacement inside Gaza via a massive Israeli response, and simultaneously disagree with the specific tactics the Israelis have used so far. None of these points are in conflict with one another, in fact, they are representative of a more balanced analysis of what is actually going on.
 
Drizzle said:
Genuinely don't see your point here, sorry.
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You are just engaging in whataboutism and listing off countries that everyone acknowledges as objectively shit in terms of human rights abuses etc., would you not hold Israel to a higher standard than that, given they are a first world country, aligned with the west and being backed by the biggest superpower there is? You don't think that given the recent history of Israel's population and how it was formed, they should be held to a higher standard in this specific context?
 
Drizzle said:
OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.
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The argument is near pointless here. There's a fundamental disconnect between how you feel (attacked, wanting to feel safe, wanting to discuss how Israel can defend itself without killing/war) and how the majority of posters on this thread feel. (if you want to be safe and not feel attacked, dont support israel. condemn their existence. dont be a zionist. its your own fault for supporting a regime oppressing Palestinians. Israel don't have a right to defend itself because it created this mess and it's their own fault, if they want to feel safe they should give land to Palestinians)

The posting of the ridiculous Meah Shearim videos and their popularity confirm this. They want to pit it was "against evil zionists, not jews. look what israel does to jews who disagree" completely disregarding the facts that heavy handed policing in this instance is normal and you'd be suprised if it wasn't. They literally celebrate Hamas and the death of Israelis there whilst taking social security and hating everyone. And not just that, the constant gaslighting of Jews with logic like "Well, we like Jews who aren't Zionists" - as in, you have no agency, we'll be anti semitic if you don't follow our view.

You probably just need to disengage from the discussion as there's nothing to be had from it. They fundamentally do not believe in Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state. And they believe that everything that happens bad, is a consequence of bad Israeli action. (I mean hell, Israeli civilians aren't real civilians because they are Zionists and caused the problems. Palestinians are real civilians because they are oppressed and had no choice but to cause problems. A civilian is not a civilian. A civcas is an automatic warcrime)

If you point out something as simple as, if Hamas put fighters in a hospital or an HQ under one and Israel bomb it, it's essentially a legitimate target, and Hamas committed the warcrime. Then you get chaos.
 
When people say they don't like Israel committing war crimes or hate the way this is all playing out, while being in favor of Israel's actions and pushing back against people who want them to stop, it just comes across as insincere. There's a centuries-old expression for it: crocodile tears.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Alexander the Great got the area, by siege, by not attacking. By waiting till they are left with no food. After then Alexander won the place.

This is what is happening know.
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Not sure if this is the best analogy since Hamas have their own food/water/fuel supplies underground. Not to mention shelter in an underground city. Obviously, its the civilians on the surface who will bear the brunt of everything during a siege.
 
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Drizzle said:
OK I actually see your point here and how it's perceived. I guess it's hard for me to see the barrage of one-sided Israel hate here. For me this is more nuanced and more complicated. So in order to artificially achieve balance I pop in reminders of context and it's not a good v evil black and white thing. I genuinely think people have gone crazy over this. And I've been accused of whataboutery but I genuinely feel a grievance about how this is viewed compared to every other war, conflict, repression etc in recent history. That's how I feel.
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I understand that and can sympathize with your position, which I'm sure is an extremely difficult one. It's a bit of a pile-on at the moment and while most of it is (in my opion at least) justified criticism, that probably doesn't make it easier. I just think you're sometimes doing more harm than good to your side of the argument.

Then again, I'm not sure there's a good way to present that argument at the moment without getting shouted down, rightly or wrongly, with emotions so high right now. Maybe it will all calm down at some point, but I fear that won't be easy while casualty figures keep rising.
 
Conor said:
You are just engaging in whataboutism and listing off countries that everyone acknowledges as objectively shit in terms of human rights abuses etc., would you not hold Israel to a higher standard than that, given they are a first world country, aligned with the west and being backed by the biggest superpower there is? You don't think that given the recent history of Israel's population and how it was formed, they should be held to a higher standard in this specific context?
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Ah OK. A few things.

1) So you want Israel held to higher standards. I'm not getting that vibe from the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people gutted that Israel didn't live up to their lofty expectations? Maybe some. Some just want the killing to stop. Some hate Israel and want it destroyed. This whole thing is about way more than high expectations.

2) Israel may be a western oriented country, but it doesn't have the luxury of being in Europe. Even our precious western democracies would act differently if they were literally surrounded by a dozen or more states wanting them dead. That doesn't excuse their actions, but I'm just pointing out that their environment is very very different and expecting them to enact some sort of schengen passport scheme is unrealistic.

3) your reference to the holocaust is pathetic and I won't engage with it. No other country gets the holocaust thrown in its face, as if actually going through it wasn't enough. Just deal with what's happening now please on its own terms.

4) there's an implicit bias in what you're saying that other countries are automatically held to lower standards. Yes thousands may die in <insert whataboutery reference here> but that's to be expected really I guess, even if there's more actual deaths involved. Are you more interested in the victims if the perpetrators are your favourite villains?
 
Ainu said:
I understand that and can sympathize with your position, which I'm sure is an extremely difficult one. It's a bit of a pile-on at the moment and while most of it is (in my opion at least) justified criticism, that probably doesn't make it easier. I just think you're sometimes doing more harm than good to your side of the argument.

Then again, I'm not sure there's a good way to present that argument at the moment without getting shouted down, rightly or wrongly, with emotions so high right now. Maybe it will all calm down at some point, but I fear that won't be easy while casualty figures keep rising.
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Fair enough. And I don't think many people's opinions are getting changed in discussions like this to be fair! It's good to vent sometimes.

And of course Israel deserves a lot of criticism and anger. I just think it's too extreme and bordering on hate and the consequences of that lack of restraint will be faced in many ways, in the region and around the world.
 
Drizzle said:
Ah OK. A few things.

1) So you want Israel held to higher standards. I'm not getting that vibe from the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people gutted that Israel didn't live up to their lofty expectations? Maybe some. Some just want the killing to stop. Some hate Israel and want it destroyed. This whole thing is about way more than high expectations.

2) Israel may be a western oriented country, but it doesn't have the luxury of being in Europe. Even our precious western democracies would act differently if they were literally surrounded by a dozen or more states wanting them dead. That doesn't excuse their actions, but I'm just pointing out that their environment is very very different and expecting them to enact some sort of schengen passport scheme is unrealistic.

3) your reference to the holocaust is pathetic and I won't engage with it. No other country gets the holocaust thrown in its face, as if actually going through it wasn't enough. Just deal with what's happening now please on its own terms.

4) there's an implicit bias in what you're saying that other countries are automatically held to lower standards. Yes thousands may die in <insert whataboutery reference here> but that's to be expected really I guess, even if there's more actual deaths involved. Are you more interested in the victims if the perpetrators are your favourite villains?
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The "holding them to a higher standard" argument also wouldn't resonate given that the Israelis are now securitized into an existential mindset where they are now convinced they won't survive if Hamas isn't eliminated. That said, they will have to avoid civilian areas or else continue to be rightfully criticized for it since killing a few Hamas guys along with 10 fold civilians will always result in condemnation.
 
Ainu said:
The thing is, no one in here is defending Hamas (except a few lunatics here and there perhaps, you never know). Everyone agrees their actions have been horrific. Yet you are constantly arguing as if people are defending them. Like, often when people condemn Israel's actions, you seem to push back by pointing to Hamas again.

It makes you come across as someone who doesn't really want to hear a bad word about Israel, or at least doesn't make you seem very genuine about it. That's not to say you are actually like that, but your posts make it seem that way.
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He has no interest in any kind of balanced discussion. He's constantly in the exaggeration, hyperbole and disingenuous conflations.

There are many Israelis and people on Israel's side worth engaging with. One of them he is not.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
When people say they don't like Israel committing war crimes or hate the way this is all playing out, while being in favor of Israel's actions and pushing back against people who want them to stop, it just comes across as insincere. There's a centuries-old expression for it: crocodile tears.
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I can take constructive criticism from a lot of posters here. Either you're not reading the posts, not understanding them or choosing to pigeonhole posters into some stupid pro/anti teams.
 
2cents said:
Some analysis of Nasrallah and Khamenei from an Israeli perspective:

'Khamenei is not in a hurry to destroy Israel; he has a broader vision'
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/10...ry-to-destroy-israel-he-has-a-broader-vision/
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Excellent link, thanks.

I also believe that Hamas expected that Hezbollah would join much sooner, but I also think that the US stopping Israel to blindly throw themselves in what absolutely looked like a trap might have changed the situation. It's the 'wait and see' attitude at the moment where anything is still possible.

Didn't know about Khamaenei's son and his place in the succession. Now that's someone who would make me worry.
 
owlo said:
The argument is near pointless here. There's a fundamental disconnect between how you feel (attacked, wanting to feel safe, wanting to discuss how Israel can defend itself without killing/war) and how the majority of posters on this thread feel. (if you want to be safe and not feel attacked, dont support israel. condemn their existence. dont be a zionist. its your own fault for supporting a regime oppressing Palestinians. Israel don't have a right to defend itself because it created this mess and it's their own fault, if they want to feel safe they should give land to Palestinians)

The posting of the ridiculous Meah Shearim videos and their popularity confirm this. They want to pit it was "against evil zionists, not jews. look what israel does to jews who disagree" completely disregarding the facts that heavy handed policing in this instance is normal and you'd be suprised if it wasn't. They literally celebrate Hamas and the death of Israelis there whilst taking social security and hating everyone. And not just that, the constant gaslighting of Jews with logic like "Well, we like Jews who aren't Zionists" - as in, you have no agency, we'll be anti semitic if you don't follow our view.

You probably just need to disengage from the discussion as there's nothing to be had from it. They fundamentally do not believe in Israel's right to exist as a sovereign state. And they believe that everything that happens bad, is a consequence of bad Israeli action. (I mean hell, Israeli civilians aren't real civilians because they are Zionists and caused the problems. Palestinians are real civilians because they are oppressed and had no choice but to cause problems. A civilian is not a civilian. A civcas is an automatic warcrime)

If you point out something as simple as, if Hamas put fighters in a hospital or an HQ under one and Israel bomb it, it's essentially a legitimate target, and Hamas committed the warcrime. Then you get chaos.
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Yeah I think you're right. Can't be doing with this to be honest. I don't mind those that argue in good faith and there's a lot of good people here, but there's also too many bullies that just pile in in their wake, and some of them are getting full mask off these days.
 
That_Bloke said:
Excellent link, thanks.

I also believe that Hamas expected that Hezbollah would join much sooner, but I also think that the US stopping Israel to blindly throw themselves in what absolutely looked like a trap might have changed the situation. It's the 'wait and see' attitude at the moment where anything is still possible.

Didn't know about Khamaenei's son and his place in the succession. Now that's someone who would make me worry.
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It's far from a universally held view that he is the 'anointed one.' The problem (or benefit) is that the other option is somewhat of a dumbass, so would be more likely controlled (by the IRGC etc). Mojtaba is also deeply unpopular within Iran, he got control of the Militia beating in peoples heads in the latest protests; his father is a Shiite ideologue not emperor wannabe, and he may feel it safer/more prudent to back Raisi.
 
Drizzle said:
Fair enough. And I don't think many people's opinions are getting changed in discussions like this to be fair! It's good to vent sometimes.

And of course Israel deserves a lot of criticism and anger. I just think it's too extreme and bordering on hate and the consequences of that lack of restraint will be faced in many ways, in the region and around the world.
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You're probably right that not many opinions are getting exchanged here. A lot of people are too entrenched in their position for any meaningful discussion to take place. Still, if nothing else, I've read some stuff on here that have at least made me consider my own position more critically instead of reacting emotionally (though I still do that too often).
 
Drizzle said:
Ah OK. A few things.

1) So you want Israel held to higher standards. I'm not getting that vibe from the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people gutted that Israel didn't live up to their lofty expectations? Maybe some. Some just want the killing to stop. Some hate Israel and want it destroyed. This whole thing is about way more than high expectations.

2) Israel may be a western oriented country, but it doesn't have the luxury of being in Europe. Even our precious western democracies would act differently if they were literally surrounded by a dozen or more states wanting them dead. That doesn't excuse their actions, but I'm just pointing out that their environment is very very different and expecting them to enact some sort of schengen passport scheme is unrealistic.

3) your reference to the holocaust is pathetic and I won't engage with it. No other country gets the holocaust thrown in its face, as if actually going through it wasn't enough. Just deal with what's happening now please on its own terms.

4) there's an implicit bias in what you're saying that other countries are automatically held to lower standards. Yes thousands may die in <insert whataboutery reference here> but that's to be expected really I guess, even if there's more actual deaths involved. Are you more interested in the victims if the perpetrators are your favourite villains?
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You seem to think everyone just hates Israel by default, which is just a load of shite for the majority of people. The reason people dislike the Israeli government is because of what they are doing and have done for years.

This crap about the holocaust is bollox as well, of course it's revelant in this conversation, that's why literally every anti-zionist Jew I've ever heard talking about the situation in Israel references it.

I think you need to question how you have come to your views on all this, where you got your information from, and how it has shaped your opinion.
 
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