Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Zionist cnuts have killed just over 9,000 people.

How many of them are confirmed Hamas fighters?
 
Raoul said:
Not sure if this is the best analogy since Hamas have their own food/water/fuel supplies underground. Not to mention shelter in an underground city. Obviously, its the civilians on the surface who will bear the brunt of everything during a siege.
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It was not an analogy. It was the reality of of how Alexander decided to do the place while not losing his soldiers. Chances are that any other army will do the same.

EDIT: unless some other general has a better idea. I hope so. But I think not.
 
owlo said:
It's far from a universally held view that he is the 'anointed one.' The problem (or benefit) is that the other option is somewhat of a dumbass, so would be more likely controlled (by the IRGC etc). Mojtaba is also deeply unpopular within Iran, he got control of the Militia beating in peoples heads in the latest protests; his father is a Shiite ideologue not emperor wannabe, and he may feel it safer/more prudent to back Raisi.
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Both alternatives don't feel me with confidence.

Also didn't realize that Khamenei was in place since 1989.
 
Kaos said:
I keep hearing that these fascist nutters are on the fringes of Israeli society, yet all these quotes I'm reading seem to be coming from ministers?
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Well, part of the madness of Israeli politics is that there are over 30 ministers right now, to satisfy the needs of all coalition parties and members. This guy - who represents the racist right wing - is the minister of Heritage. What does that mean, you ask? Well, I've no idea.
 
JPRouve said:
They are part of the majority and mainstream.
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They became that way beause Netanyahu, in a total irresponsible manner, sold his soul to the racist right in order to survive politically, and to hell with the consequences. In the past he wouln't get anywhere near those people.
 
Crazy clip from Gaza. Apparently released by Hamas… He just walks towards the tank and put an explosive on it...

 
Amir said:
They became that way beause Netanyahu, in a total irresponsible manner, sold his soul to the racist right in order to survive politically, and to hell with the consequences. In the past he wouln't get anywhere near those people.
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That's true. In the past similar ideologies and discourses were easily criticized and banned, as the banning of Kach illustrates. But the people behind it have always existed and acted on it, they were just not openly supported by people at the top of the political pyramid. An illustration of that is that support for Baruch Goldstein was allegedly used as an argument to ban these movements in the early 90s and yet nearly 30 years later you have ministers openly supporting that legacy. Israel(and Palestine) slowly but surely went backwards and it is that slow burn that is so dangerous for both sides, extremists are totally aware of it while the rest of the population arab and jewish are kind of oblivious.
 
That_Bloke said:
Both alternatives don't feel me with confidence.

Also didn't realize that Khamenei was in place since 1989.
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Yea, he should be long dead. I'm rather invested in Iran emotionally, my family moved from there to Britain [and then Israel] just before the revolution (my Gran having arrived from Poland in 1942 as a small child and having stayed there with an Iranian family taking care of her as opposed to emigrating to Palestine), and it's a place that someday I would love to 'return' to, having heard all the stories it feels like it should be close to my heart.

When he dies it'll be dangerous moments for the regime, and prime time for revolution. His son (hated) could well be assassinated (like Khomeinis son, who the current president may have helped assassinate) and there's nothing but turmoil or brutal repression after this. Kham will be aware of all this, which is why he'll maybe? put Raisi on the pedestal and let his son and the IRGC control by the scenes whilst they suppress revolution and blame it on him. He can always have an accident afterwards.
 
Drizzle said:
Yeah I think you're right. Can't be doing with this to be honest. I don't mind those that argue in good faith and there's a lot of good people here, but there's also too many bullies that just pile in in their wake, and some of them are getting full mask off these days.
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To be fair, that post you're quoting could easily be phrased as a "full mask off" moment too. More so than the vast majority i've read in here. It's full of accusations i've not seen from anyone posting regularly, like not seeing any Israeli civilians as such and not believing in any right for Israel as a state to exist. That last sentence is just trying to be slick without actually outright saying bombing hospitals (and by the same logic the refugee camps/safe areas) is all fine and legitimate if there's any Hamas presence at all.

No, it's not fine. It's a barbaric doctrine to resort straight to bombing such places (which should only be involved as an absolute last resort in any conflict) into oblivion just because there might be a basement/bunker HQ under it, or some fighters hiding there. If they are intent on sending in boots on the ground, its well within their military capabilities to neutralise and isolate those issues without casually wiping out masses of civilians. It's the Hamas fighters that are mobile in the wider city and tunnels that are going to be their main problem.
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
To be fair, that post you're quoting could easily be phrased as a "full mask off" moment too. More so than the vast majority i've read in here. It's full of accusations i've not seen from anyone posting regularly, like not seeing any Israeli civilians as such and not believing in any right for Israel as a state to exist. That last sentence is just trying to be slick without actually outright saying bombing hospitals (and by the same logic the refugee camps/safe areas) is all fine and legitimate if there's any Hamas presence at all.

No, it's not fine. It's a barbaric doctrine to resort straight to bombing such places (which should only be involved as an absolute last resort in any conflict) into oblivion just because there might be a basement/bunker HQ under it, or some fighters hiding there. If they are intent on sending in boots on the ground, its well within their military capabilities to neutralise and isolate those issues without casually wiping out masses of civilians. It's the Hamas fighters that are mobile in the wider city and tunnels that are going to be their main problem.
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Don't misquote me to say something completely different in my name. Thanks.
 
What would be the logistics behind flooding Hamas tunnels? Feasible? Non starter?
 
Ekkie Thump said:
What would be the logistics behind flooding Hamas tunnels? Feasible? Non starter?
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Been some news reports they might try. Been done for decades with success. (flood, fire, gas) Egypt did it to Hamas in 2016ish. Hostages a concern in a fast flood scenario.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
What would be the logistics behind flooding Hamas tunnels? Feasible? Non starter?
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I thought this would be the first response and what they actually did as the absolute last resort.

I thought we were gonna see a targeted ground attack on Hammas tunnels but I guess they didn't have the confidence in their troops and decided that launching air strikes from safe distance (whilst killing so many innocents) was the best way forward.
 
Amir said:
Well, part of the madness of Israeli politics is that there are over 30 ministers right now, to satisfy the needs of all coalition parties and members. This guy - who represents the racist right wing - is the minister of Heritage. What does that mean, you ask? Well, I've no idea.
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Ahh, gotcha. Thanks.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
Its inevitable. You cannot bomb people into accepting occupation. We tried it in Iraq, we tried it for 20 years in Afghanistan (and the USSR did for a decade before that). The taliban are back in control and Iraq is turfing out the US with the same warlord types in charge.

All bombs do is create the next generation of terrorists. Or do people really think a 14 year old that is the only survivor of their family is going to grow up and work on an olive farm?
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Is it inevitable? Is it always the case?

I'd suggest not. And you can apply it to an individual who was abused all the way up to entire races enslaved.

Most people would not excuse someone who was abused growing up then choosing to abuse others. Many who suffer do not chose to extract the same pain on others.

Some nations who suffered greatly at the hands of others did not infect produce a generation of terrorists. In fact, some chose a better way, they thrived.

You could even apply this way of thinking to Israel itself, or rather to the Jewish population given the centuries of hatred and violence against them.
 


Very touching story. My heart hurts seeing all the death and destruction. It's easy to be angry. It's easy to hate. It's easy to seek revenge. We need more people like this incredible doctor.
 
JagUTD said:
Is it inevitable? Is it always the case?

I'd suggest not. And you can apply it to an individual who was abused all the way up to entire races enslaved.

Most people would not excuse someone who was abused growing up then choosing to abuse others. Many who suffer do not chose to extract the same pain on others.

Some nations who suffered greatly at the hands of others did not infect produce a generation of terrorists. In fact, some chose a better way, they thrived.
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Those who didn't produce a generation of terrorists are the ones that were put in a position to thrive. Palestinians have little chance of thriving, at least not in Palestine. And if they want to thrive elsewhere, they have to do it as refugees and immigrants.

You could even apply this way of thinking to Israel itself, or rather to the Jewish population given the centuries of hatred and violence against them.
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Could you? There's an argument to be made for it being the exact opposite, where Israel have gone from being the abused to being the abusers. It's easy to understand how it happened too, just like it's easy to understand why Palestinians are turning militant.
 
owlo said:
Been some news reports they might try. Been done for decades with success. (flood, fire, gas) Egypt did it to Hamas in 2016ish. Hostages a concern in a fast flood scenario.
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Yeah I can see the risk but are hostages more at risk from flooding than air strikes? Just seems to me that if it were feasible it would be the most efficient way of targeting Hamas without having to go through civilians. Obviously I'm no strategist though.

@Dirty Schwein, yeah I guess urban combat against a prepared enemy in an unfamiliar environment is a scary proposition. Reports seem to suggest they now have Gaza City surrounded though, including the coastal road. Perhaps that might make flooding a more attractive proposition than earlier.
 
Drizzle said:
I can take constructive criticism from a lot of posters here. Either you're not reading the posts, not understanding them or choosing to pigeonhole posters into some stupid pro/anti teams.
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You really do have to pick between "not being in favor of dropping bombs on thousands of children" and "the other option." It's not the kind of thing where "degrees of" works very well.
 
nimic said:
Those who didn't produce a generation of terrorists are the ones that were put in a position to thrive. Palestinians have little chance of thriving, at least not in Palestine. And if they want to thrive elsewhere, they have to do it as refugees and immigrants.



Could you? There's an argument to be made for it being the exact opposite, where Israel have gone from being the abused to being the abusers. It's easy to understand how it happened too, just like it's easy to understand why Palestinians are turning militant.
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There isn't now, but if we are ever to see an end to this cycle, there will have to be eventually.
 
marktan said:
I think this shit could start to get really ugly in the UK. I get the sense a lot of people have been holding back hoping Israel eventually stops, but it doesn't seem like they are. Eventually a lot of people will say enough is enough and resort to more violent acts to protest. It's incredible this shit is allowed to go on for more than a month with no one in the world doing anything. fecked up world we live in.

The worst is so many people bending over backwards to explain why Jews are afraid or why this was so bad for Israel - like feck who's the one with hundred dead everyday and 3700 kids dead so far? Whose the one actively dying? Like I care about Israelis too of course and Oct 7 was horrible , but whose the one dying right now every day? Imagine sticking 2m Jews into Gaza and letting them get bombed to shit for 30 days straight with a food and water blockade? Why is it okay when it's Palestinians? I've never known anger on this quite so bad as it is (including myself) and if no government in the world is going to intervene to help you're going to see a lot of lone actors acting out. It's getting way past being ridiculous
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What do you mean by "lone actors" acting out?

If it's what it sounds like, and apologies if you clarify otherwise, but it's not going to help anyone. It certainly wouldn't cause the UK to turn against Israel.

And how do we know no country is doing anything? I'm pretty certain there will be constant dialogue between many nations, including with both Israel and Hamas, even if the latter is off the record. Whether anything is achieved is another matter but I doubt everyone's just sat back watching.
 
marktan said:
I mean anger will boil into people doing more violent shit. Throwing bricks at windows, vandalising, hell even physical attacks against people. There's lot of anger and helplessness there. There's only so long you can expect people to watch a genocide unfolding live and go along with it.

Behind the scenes sure for hostages and some aid may e but publicly the UK USA etc have condoned the current genocide by standing behind 'Israel has a right to defend itself'. They're not going to do shit, this will only end like always when Israel decides it's had its fill. Everything else like 'clearing out Hamas' (impossible) is just an front.
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Thanks for clarifying. I don't really see what people expect to achieve by such actions though. And depending on the targets of such action, corporate, state, pro Israel or Jews, not only will it achieve nothing, it could have a very damaging effect on those responsible and the wider cause depending on who or what is the victim.

Unfortunately when it comes to war, what goes on in private and what is shared publicly are often very different. The official stance for the UK was always going to be in support of Israel, a close ally. It's not always the case privately and the small concessions are often the result of constant discussion and negotiation between many parties.
 
JPRouve said:
That's true. In the past similar ideologies and discourses were easily criticized and banned, as the banning of Kach illustrates. But the people behind it have always existed and acted on it, they were just not openly supported by people at the top of the political pyramid. An illustration of that is that support for Baruch Goldstein was allegedly used as an argument to ban these movements in the early 90s and yet nearly 30 years later you have ministers openly supporting that legacy. Israel(and Palestine) slowly but surely went backwards and it is that slow burn that is so dangerous for both sides, extremists are totally aware of it while the rest of the population arab and jewish are kind of oblivious.
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Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.

They also strengthened politically, but still had no real power until last year when Netanyahu gave them the big push as he made them part of the coalition and government. Even now thay are trying to inflame the situation, whether it's in the West Bank or within Israel, treating Arab-Israelis as automatic suspect of betrayel,
 
Amir said:
Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.

They also strengthened politically, but still had no real power until last year when Netanyahu gave them the big push as he made them part of the coalition and government. Even now thay are trying to inflame the situation, whether it's in the West Bank or within Israel, treating Arab-Israelis as automatic suspect of betrayel,
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That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.
 
Kaush949 said:
That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.
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A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.

He was right.

The combination of the religious nutters + the belief that the holocaust should give us special dispensation to do whatever we want to whoever we want has turned parts of Israel and Israeli society to totally deplorable.
 
Just finished watching Bassem Yusuf interview and it has opened my eyes.

As an outsider, now everything is adding up.

This conflict was never about Hamas. It was only about grabbing more land by the Israeli Government.

And it completely ties together with Netanyahu's presentation at the arab summit. The one where he is showing his vision for the new Israeli map.

It is crazy how Netanyahu and Co. have effectively manipulated and united the Israeli people behind his long term strategy towards complete conquest of Palestinian land.

Based on my understanding, his plan looks like this:

1. Introduce more settlers, grab some land, make life harder for palestinians
2. Wait till extreme elements (HAMAS) react with terrorism
3. This brings more fear, hatred and need for justice among general Israeli population.
4. Use this justification to either force palestinians to vacate. Bomb the shit out of the ones who don't.
5. This forces remaining Palestinians into the Sinai, Jordan
6. This brews a new cohort of Palestinian extremists again for the future phase to restart the cycle.

Then rinse and repeat till the entire strip becomes Israeli territory.

Only this time, I think Netanyahu was taken a bit by surprise by the larger scale and organization with which the Hamas terrorists executed their terror.

But in the end it worked out perfectly for him. He successfully got a pass to super charge his master strategy.

To Moderate Israeli friends @Amir @Drizzle @owlo

I do understand your perspective and how stressed, fearful and frustrated you may be feeling at this time especially with the constant attacks and blaming. I honestly think and realize that there is not much you can do even if you wanted to.

But, I plead you to atleast open your eyes and see and internalize the boarder strategy at play here beyond just the elimination of Hamas.

Only the U.S. has the power to break this cycle. But as we know, the U.S. is only driven by financial interests more than anything else.
 
calodo2003 said:
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Said it weeks ago and banged on about it a few times. No doubt they are also selecting target packages. (Or rather providing raw intelligence for them by sending the ref to the screen var style to abrogate responsibility.) The absolute failure of Israeli ISR is being lost in the more important stuff, but they have to come back to it after the war, as essentially it’s been a primary factor in the excess deaths on both sides.

marktan said:
I mean anger will boil into people doing more violent shit. Throwing bricks at windows, vandalising, hell even physical attacks against people. There's lot of anger and helplessness there. There's only so long you can expect people to watch a genocide unfolding live and go along with it.
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Disregarding that you are justifying violence largely against civilian Jews.…. (Because in these scenarios Jews are largely the targets)

If a group of people want to kick up social unrest and violence in a country where their privilege and freedom specifically enables it, they are feeding the stereotype and hatred. College campuses in the US are already seemingly reaching some sort of reckoning, and honestly I have zero sympathy for Harvard educated thugs who get blacklisted from jobs.
 
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