Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Roane]

Unless something has shifted from when I left in 2001, he's just a complete non entity, at least amongst younger people my age. I'd never heard of him until later. Those younger people will be in their 30s now like myself, and likely have only heard of him through Smotrich rambles or something (and then most will automatically think he's a crank). Perhaps older people are more aware.

Various reports of school kids singing his name whilst taunting Arabs. Not just now but since 1994. Reported on 11th August.

Documentaries shown at the Toronto Jewish festival containing content about him.

How cousin's 22 minute documentary

He has a fanclub.

Tik tok vids

The 119 "club" (he fired 119 bullets).


There are regular articles about him in places like The Jewish Journal. Not celebratory articles but articles looking at the massacres impact and quotations from senior rabbis/politicians etc condemning the massacre.

A quick Google will show you articles etc on the "anniversary" of the massacre, again not saying supporting, but yeah no one's heard of him

 

[Roane]

I keep seeing you and others make this argument, but has anyone in this thread suggested that the Jews should completely depart Israel? The argument that everyone is making against the Israeli government is that they should stop committing war crimes and persecuting Palestinians, but I haven't seen anyone call for anything other than a 2 state solution.

I really don't get the whole argument.

Don't take this as blase or whatever but Jewish people are afraid because of pro Palestinian flags and graffiti in your London's and Manchester's and cities in America. Schools are closing and the fear is highlighted in media etc in this country.

Yet the safest place is surrounded by Hamas, Hezbollah and "Arabs" who "hate us"?

 

[Amir]

There is literally films and books about this guy. Upto 10k people reported to visiting his shrine on the day. News reports. Newspaper articles. Opinion pieces. Interviews with his old man. Prayers in certain synagogues, around the world.

Possibly. But all that is happening in a very specific part of the population. An average person in Israel is not even aware of any of those things.

 

[Slevs]

This was so powerful.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

To what end, though? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by this? Get rid of who, and from where precidely?

He means to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, presumably by pushing them into the Sinai. He's referencing the forced ethnic cleansing of over 200,000 Palestinians from Kuwait to Jordan after the Gulf War. Arafat and the PLO had lent their support to Saddam's invasion and occupation and Kuwaiti Palestinians were considered guilty by association.

 

[the_cliff]

By the way, why do Israelis refer to Palestinians as "the Arabs"? In so many street interviews I see this pattern.

So do the media which is weird as they aren't actually Arabs. In fact most people in the 'so called' Arab countries aren't actually Arab. An example would be North Africa the people in those countries share more Iberian Dna than actual Arab DNA.

 

[calodo2003]

 

[WeePat]

He means to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, presumably by pushing them into the Sinai. He's referencing the forced ethnic cleansing of over 200,000 Palestinians from Kuwait to Jordan after the Gulf War. Arafat and the PLO had lent their support to Saddam's invasion and occupation and Kuwaiti Palestinians were considered guilty by association.

I know exactly what he meant, I just wanted him to explicitly say it.

 

[Amir]

Various reports of school kids singing his name whilst taunting Arabs. Not just now but since 1994. Reported on 11th August.

Documentaries shown at the Toronto Jewish festival containing content about him.

How cousin's 22 minute documentary

He has a fanclub.

Tik tok vids

The 119 "club" (he fired 119 bullets).


There are regular articles about him in places like The Jewish Journal. Not celebratory articles but articles looking at the massacres impact and quotations from senior rabbis/politicians etc condemning the massacre.

A quick Google will show you articles etc on the "anniversary" of the massacre, again not saying supporting, but yeah no one's heard of him

Did anyone say no one has heard of him? No. Just that he is a non entity for many.

I do not know what jewish people in Toronto, France or the US know or think of him. I can only talk about what is going on in Israel. And I have no idea who reads the Jewish Journal, especially here

 

[owlo]

I keep seeing you and others make this argument, but has anyone in this thread suggested that the Jews should completely depart Israel? The argument that everyone is making against the Israeli government is that they should stop committing war crimes and persecuting Palestinians, but I haven't seen anyone call for anything other than a 2 state solution.

It's hard to get honest opinions/answers because of the laws in the west, but the feeling I get is that the vast majority in this thread feel Israel is completely illegitimate, and that a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.

To what end, though? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by this? Get rid of who, and from where precidely?

He means to ethnically cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, presumably by pushing them into the Sinai. He's referencing the forced ethnic cleansing of over 200,000 Palestinians from Kuwait to Jordan after the Gulf War. Arafat and the PLO had lent their support to Saddam's invasion and occupation and Kuwaiti Palestinians were considered guilty by association.

Yes. My argument/position has long been that in 1948, Israel should have been formed in somewhere like Alberta where they could flourish nicely, and the middle east left to the pan-palestinians. Unfortunately they were a useful geopolitical pawn to have right there, and that's where they wanted to be. Obviously Israel can't move now, and I think the situation is now hopeless, and they are in a position of either repeatedly killing to defend themselves and sitting in a cycle of violence, or simply being honest (like the Kuwaitis etc) and simply saying 'We don't believe you can live here in peace. We want your land.' Find them a spot of land, pay them reparations, and let people live in peace.

Of course it's wrong morally and there would be outcry, but it would cause far less pain, and in 50 years you'd hopefully have a thriving people outside of the influence of Iran etc. I disagree with pushing them into the Sinai though, they need a home not more displacement. There's plenty of land on the planet that the US etc are holding onto for no reason. Even nice islands.

 

[Mike Smalling]

It's hard to get honest opinions/answers because of the laws in the west, but the feeling I get is that the vast majority in this thread feel Israel is completely illegitimate, and that a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.

Yeah, well it's exactly that - just a feeling you get. You project some pretty terrible views onto people that criticize the conduct of the Israeli state, because it hurts your feelings or whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, people advocate for a two-state solution so that the Palestinian people get a chance of self-determination and not to live under the thumb of a government and people that hate them.

 

[2cents]

By the way, why do Israelis refer to Palestinians as "the Arabs"? In so many street interviews I see this pattern.

Likely for the same reason Palestinians tend to refer to Israeli Jews as “the Jews”. That is how they referred to each other when all this started as “Palestinians” and “Israelis” were understood in different ways back then.

 

[Roane]

Did anyone say no one has heard of him? No. Just that he is a non entity for many.

I do not know what jewish people in Toronto, France or the US know or think of him. I can only talk about what is going on in Israel. And I have no idea who reads the Jewish Journal, especially here

To quote you

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all

But you're right maybe they don't watch the documentaries, read the papers, watch the tiktoks, see the processions etc

 

[2cents]

So do the media which is weird as they aren't actually Arabs. In fact most people in the 'so called' Arab countries aren't actually Arab. An example would be North Africa the people in those countries share more Iberian Dna than actual Arab DNA.

That’s only if you consider Arabness in strictly genetic terms with origins in the Arabian Peninsula. Even then there is much evidence of tribes from there migrating into Palestine and greater Syria, and into North Africa, over the centuries.

Arabs however tend to think of it as a much broader umbrella encompassing language, culture, and heritage. Sati Al-Husri, who was the most influential ideologue of Arab nationalism in the early 20th century, said an Arab is anyone who speaks Arabic as their mother tongue. Though of course anyone is free to reject this.

In any case the charters of all Palestinian political parties describe Palestinians as an Arab people, part of the Arab nation, Palestine as an Arab land, and the Palestinian cause as an Arab cause. It would be crazy for an outsider to tell them they not Arab.

 

[Traub]

I really don't get the whole argument.

Don't take this as blase or whatever but Jewish people are afraid because of pro Palestinian flags and graffiti in your London's and Manchester's and cities in America. Schools are closing and the fear is highlighted in media etc in this country.

Yet the safest place is surrounded by Hamas, Hezbollah and "Arabs" who "hate us"?

Yes because Israel actually cares about Jews as opposed to these other places where we will be at the whim of whoever is in charge - who may end up being anti-semitic at some point in time as we have seen throughout history.

Jews aren't so easy to get rid of anymore because there is an Israel - the theoretical debate of whether it is safer in London or Tel Aviv as a Jew only exists because Israel exists.

Edit: this should probably be in that other thread.

 

[owlo]

Yeah, well it's exactly that - just a feeling you get. You project some pretty terrible views onto people that criticize the conduct of the Israeli state, because it hurts your feelings or whatever.

Maybe, just maybe, people advocate for a two-state solution so that the Palestinian people get a chance of self-determination and not to live under the thumb of a government and people that hate them.

Do you feel that Israel is a legitimate state with a right to maintain its security from terror and insurgency? Do you think it had a legitimate right to respond to these Hamas attacks within the framework of international law? (I make no judgment of whether they have broken international law at this stage)

A two state solution implies those rights.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Do you feel that Israel is a legitimate state with a right to maintain its security from terror and insurgency? Do you think it had a legitimate right to respond to these Hamas attacks within the framework of international law? (I make no judgment of whether they have broken international law at this stage)

A two state solution implies those rights.

Yes and yes. I have no wish to "get rid" of Israel, as you put it, and I haven't seen any posters in this thread advocate for it either - either directly or implicitly. Being very critical of the actions of a state is not the same as wishing it gone entirely.

 

[RedC]

It's hard to get honest opinions/answers because of the laws in the west, but the feeling I get is that the vast majority in this thread feel Israel is completely illegitimate, and that a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.

Ok, well I would definitely argue against that impression. There are a hell of a lot of countries in the world founded on a similar basis, Israel is a legitimate country in 2023 and anyone in their right mind isn't going to suggest that it could be made otherwise.

My impression of this thread, along with my own opinion is that what outsiders are arguing for is that something fairer needs to be done to ultimately allow for equal rights and acceptable identity/home lands to be provided for all parties, and for that to be demonstrably proven in practice, and not just in name.

 

[WeePat]

It's hard to get honest opinions/answers because of the laws in the west, but the feeling I get is that the vast majority in this thread feel Israel is completely illegitimate, and that a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.





Yes. My argument/position has long been that in 1948, Israel should have been formed in somewhere like Alberta where they could flourish nicely, and the middle east left to the pan-palestinians. Unfortunately they were a useful geopolitical pawn to have right there, and that's where they wanted to be. Obviously Israel can't move now, and I think the situation is now hopeless, and they are in a position of either repeatedly killing to defend themselves and sitting in a cycle of violence, or simply being honest (like the Kuwaitis etc) and simply saying 'We don't believe you can live here in peace. We want your land.' Find them a spot of land, pay them reparations, and let people live in peace.

Of course it's wrong morally and there would be outcry, but it would cause far less pain, and in 50 years you'd hopefully have a thriving people outside of the influence of Iran etc. I disagree with pushing them into the Sinai though, they need a home not more displacement. There's plenty of land on the planet that the US etc are holding onto for no reason. Even nice islands.

But imagine if someone said about Israel what you’re saying here about the Palestinians. I don’t see how you can on one hand be worried about people wanting a two state solution potentially developing into questioning Israel’s right to exist, which I haven’t seen suggested anywhere in this thread, and at the same time say what you just said about Palestine.

 

[2cents]

LIVE UPDATES: Nasrallah's speech begins

 

[Kaos]

It's hard to get honest opinions/answers because of the laws in the west, but the feeling I get is that the vast majority in this thread feel Israel is completely illegitimate, and that a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.

Regardless of whether you think its origins are illegitimate or otherwise, the country is there to stay, and it makes no sense from a humanitarian perspective to simply 'get rid of it' so to speak. In truth, no country has the fundamental right to exist if we're arguing historical pedantry, but every country has the right for peace and stability within declared borders. That includes Israel.

Having said that, Israel's issue is it's not acting like a country that wishes to sincerely pursue peace. A country that has refused to declare her borders, that continues to occupy territory, and one that continues to exercise apartheid in the West Bank and essentially imprison 2.3million people in inhumane conditions in Gaza. That version of Israel is one most of us hold issue with and one we wish to no longer persist - again I stress this strongly, not in a literal sense, but in a manifested sense. The same way I don't want the Islamic Republic of Iran to exist, but rather a democratic secular Iran.

 

[Raoul]

They are also apparently using colored smoke bombs which when dropped into tunnels permeate out of other tunnel exits, which gives those on the outside more visibility on where all the tunnel entrances/exits are.

 

[Raoul]

So far the Nasrullah speech is a lot of complaining about Israeli actions inside Gaza (they're going after civilians as opposed to military targets etc).

Also, the usual historical grievances going back 7 decades.

A lengthy rant about the US - saying Khomeini was right in calling them the devil.

Blaming the US - It is they who want the violence in Gaza.

 

[Pintu]

 

[Slevs]

Said the Oct 7 attack was 100% Palestinian. Read between the lines, he's saying we had nothing to do with it, so don't trigger us else we'll retaliate.
He'll end the speech with the usual threat and that will be that. No war for the time being.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

a two state solution is simply the first step to getting rid of it.

How is that supposed to work?

 

[Roane]

So far the Nasrullah speech is a lot of complaining about Israeli actions inside Gaza (they're going after civilians as opposed to military targets etc). Also, the usual historical grievances going back 7 decades.

Complaining about them there facts

 

[Raoul]

Now, Nasrullah giving positive shoutouts to our guys in Iraq and Yemen seizing the initiative (on obvious shoutout to Iranian proxies in Iraq and Yemen attacking Israel and US interests).

 

[Gehrman]

How is that supposed to work?

Probaly on the grounds on mistrust. Apart from 80 years of conflict, even if "from the river to the sea" doesnt mean killing all jews its means the end of Israel. I think unfortunately the point of no return has passed in terms of mutual respect and good faith for it ever to become a reality.

 

[RedC]

Probaly on the grounds on mistrust. Apart from 80 years of conflict, even if "from the river to the sea" doesnt mean killing all jews its means the end of Israel. I think unfortunately the point of no return has passed in terms of mutual respect and good faith for it ever to become a reality.

Good faith is only needed if the state in question isn't a military superpower with nukes. Literally nobody is getting rid of Israel, no matter how much they hate them, without the whole world essentially ending.

 

[Gehrman]

Good faith is only needed if the state in question isn't a military superpower with nukes. Literally nobody is getting rid of Israel, no matter how much they hate them, without the whole world essentially ending.

No but it wouldn't necessarily stop their neighbours from trying. Nuking in your backyard isnt going happen vs an enemy far away.

But the thing is. The nr. 1 priority of a good goverment is security. If Israel based on the last 80 years feel their security would be comprised its nothing going to happen. From the plo blowing up school busses and cafes, to hijacking airplanes, to having 3 major wars involving the neighbours to etc etc... and in a similar vein apart from jihadist extremists there will always be real sense among Palestinians that revenge is appropriate

 

[calodo2003]

They are also apparently using colored smoke bombs which when dropped into tunnels permeate out of other tunnel exits, which gives those on the outside more visibility on where all the tunnel entrances/exits are.

Smart.

 

[Amir]

To quote you

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all

But you're right maybe they don't watch the documentaries, read the papers, watch the tiktoks, see the processions etc

You think young people read the papers?

As for the processions... What proccesions? I don't think I ever saw one. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm sure they do, just that - again - it's not something that the average Israeli is exposed to.

Naturally, I can only speak from my position as an average Israel living in Israel, seeing Israeli media, talking to Israeli people, etc. I don't know what's is going on in the Toronto Documentary Festival....

I was a teenager when Goldstein committed that massacre. So I'll always know the name and what he did, and I remember it when his name is mentioned here and there. But it doesn't happen often in large parts of the Israeli society. It's just a fact. Just like it's a fact that he IS unfortunately a hero to a certain section of the local population. But even if that revolting section of people and their actions are highlighted, it doesn't mean they represent a significant percentage of the Israelis.

 

[adexkola]

No but it wouldn't necessarily stop their neighbours from trying. Nuking in your backyard isnt going happen vs an enemy far away.

But the thing is. The nr. 1 priority of a good goverment is security. If Israel based on the last 80 years feel their security would be comprised its nothing going to happen. From the plo blowing up school busses and cafes, to hijacking airplanes, to having 3 major wars involving the neighbours to etc etc... and in a similar vein apart from jihadist extremists there will always be real sense among Palestinians that revenge is appropriate

Israel and Lebanon are sworn enemies. They also manage to exist next to each other as sovereign countries without apartheid and concentration camps (there's the odd kerfuffle here and there but what you gonna do eh?).

If your security is dependent on keeping a group of people in wretched situations, then you're never secure.

 

[Gehrman]

Israel and Lebanon are sworn enemies. They also manage to exist next to each other as sovereign countries without apartheid and concentration camps (there's the odd kerfuffle here and there but what you gonna do eh?).

If your security is dependent on keeping a group of people in wretched situations, then you're never secure.

Are you just going to gloss over the history of Israel and lebanon?

Point being. Israel doesnt claim territory of Lebanon or the other way around.

 

[owlo]

Yes and yes. I have no wish to "get rid" of Israel, as you put it, and I haven't seen any posters in this thread advocate for it either - either directly or implicitly. Being very critical of the actions of a state is not the same as wishing it gone entirely.

You've not seen a large number of posters in this thread call it an illegitimate state or one that should not/has no right to exist? I'm not a good thread detective, but I'm sure somebody can make you a montage. That and the thousands of people around the world chanting it make me think its real and not an isolated wish. There has been a movement to illegitimise Israel forever.

But imagine if someone said about Israel what you’re saying here about the Palestinians. I don’t see how you can on one hand be worried about people wanting a two state solution potentially developing into questioning Israel’s right to exist, which I haven’t seen suggested anywhere in this thread, and at the same time say what you just said about Palestine.

What am I saying about the Palestinians? I've said I feel the best solution is as above, for the reasons I stated. I think their militancy is rational, but that even a peaceful Israel next door would not solve any issues (assuming you could wave a magic wand and get the two sides to the table.) Were a Palestinian state to exist there, the same issues would occur. It would still be an Iranian proxy, as much as or more than Israel is a US proxy. The militancy and febrile political environment would still exist, just as it does in the neighbouring countries. And Israel would still end up invading and overreacting every time there was an act of terrorism. It's a clearly stated aim of both Palestinian and Iranian leadership that they want to wipe out Israel. What would be left is a poor, exploited rump state with a perfect environment to continue the current militancy and proxy war. (And probably many of the same valid complaints)

Israel can't/won't trust Palestinians for decades now anyway, so either you maintain the status quo or they move elsewhere. My opinion is its better for them to move elsewhere, preferably out of the region and malign influence of Iran et al. (And back to the magic wands, if I could wave one and move Israel and its Jews to say Texas, that'd be hella cool.)

 

[Amir]

To Moderate Israeli friends @Amir @Drizzle @owlo

I do understand your perspective and how stressed, fearful and frustrated you may be feeling at this time especially with the constant attacks and blaming. I honestly think and realize that there is not much you can do even if you wanted to.

But, I plead you to atleast open your eyes and see and internalize the boarder strategy at play here beyond just the elimination of Hamas.

My eyes are open and some of the points you made are absolutely true. With others, you are giving Netanyahu too much credit. He's not that good a long term strategist and in recent years he's been mostly about short term survival. Of himself.

Also, I think you're mixing up things that Netanyahu did/aspires to and things the extreme right wishes for and tries to produce. While Netayahu started co operating with the extreme right a lot more in the last couple of years, they've not been aligned and still aren't,

 

[Kaos]

Are you just going to gloss over the history of Israel and lebanon?

Point being. Israel doesnt claim territory of Lebanon or the other way around.

Interesting you mention this. People often forget Israel invaded Southern Lebanon in 1982, and it took an armed struggle from Hezbollah to force them out in 2000.

 

[adexkola]

Are you just going to gloss over the history of Israel and lebanon?

Point being. Israel doesn't claim territory of Lebanon or the other way around.

Only so much I could put in 3 sentences

Point being. There is no excuse for Israel's oppression. Not even "fears about it's security". They're a nuclear state, and have the United States bent over for fecks sake. If they truly fear about their security, in addition to being apartheidy concentration camp perpetuators, they're bitches.

Evict the settlers, go back to 1967 borders, then Iron Dome and mine your borders, and shoot the shit out of any intruders on your sovereign land.

 

[Kaos]

You've not seen a large number of posters in this thread call it an illegitimate state or one that should not/has no right to exist? I'm not a good thread detective, but I'm sure somebody can make you a montage. That and the thousands of people around the world chanting it make me think its real and not an isolated wish. There has been a movement to illegitimise Israel forever.



What am I saying about the Palestinians? I've said I feel the best solution is as above, for the reasons I stated. I think their militancy is rational, but that even a peaceful Israel next door would not solve any issues (assuming you could wave a magic wand and get the two sides to the table.) Were a Palestinian state to exist there, the same issues would occur. It would still be an Iranian proxy, as much as or more than Israel is a US proxy. The militancy and febrile political environment would still exist, just as it does in the neighbouring countries. And Israel would still end up invading and overreacting every time there was an act of terrorism. It's a clearly stated aim of both Palestinian and Iranian leadership that they want to wipe out Israel. What would be left is a poor, exploited rump state with a perfect environment to continue the current militancy and proxy war. (And probably many of the same valid complaints)

Israel can't/won't trust Palestinians for decades now anyway, so either you maintain the status quo or they move elsewhere. My opinion is its better for them to move elsewhere, preferably out of the region and malign influence of Iran et al. (And back to the magic wands, if I could wave one and move Israel and its Jews to say Texas, that'd be hella cool.)

So you're essentially saying the Palestinians have a choice between living under occupation and apartheid.... or ethnic cleansing, with you pretty much advocating for the latter.

Do you not see how insane that sounds?