On Nasrallah's speech:
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
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I wanted to reply, then I thought, it's not worth it, at this point I am not surprised by his posts anymore.
This isnt what i meant. I wasn't talking about Palestinians having a real chance of obliterating Israel, but going back to days of your average cafe being blown up.
I do agree that their is no excuse for a lot of what Israel does, but essentially i gave my answer directed at owlo as to why it is thought at this point in time would be considered at stopping Stone to the end of Isrsel.
And they invaded because of the PLO. Who were also operating from that area.
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Ah gotcha
And any considerations by anyone along those lines are bullshit. A 2 state solution is not a stepping stone to the end of Israel or the annihilation of Jews.
Not if it would work out the way everyone in good faith would want it to. Its something i wish for but i believe it has no chance at happening unlike the days under Arafat. But true a literal true annihilation of Israel seems unlikely in the timeframe most of us will experience.
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No, I haven't seen that, but I'll admit that I'm not reading every single post in here. If they are there, I disagree with them.
And you are moving the goalposts quite a bit from "the vast majority in this thread wants to get rid of Israel" to "people chanting around the world". The two are not really connected. I also don't think anyone really disputes that there is a sizable and vocal anti-Israel movement around the world. I just object to anyone taking the leap from harsh criticism of Israel to anti-semitism or calling for Israels removal. They are not the same.
Yes. Do you see the situation differently? Do you see another way out for them now?
And it not only sounds insane, but is insane.
I live in Alberta but I grew up in Eastern Canada and India. While, I don't support the formation of non-secular, mono-ethnic country, I do think it would have been great, if the jews had immigrated here for safe haven forming a united Canada. I have always felt there isn't much Jewish representation in Canada except in Toronto.
Going back on topic though, I do have question for you. To me, your view of pushing the palestinian people out into some separate land sounds very similar to Nazi Germany's original strategy of relocating European Jews to Madagascar, before they pivoted to genocide instead.
As an outsider, with no bias, I am simply observing the repeat of the same activities and treatment that the jewish folks faced during the period.
Infact, Germany justified this under the vision of creating a Living Space ("Lebesraum") for the Germanic people.
Morally, doesn't it feel wrong that these exact activities are repeating with Israel being the perpetrator?
Isn't "Never again" supposed to be applied to all people and not just the Jewish people?
My intention is not to attack you but to genuinely get your perspective on how you see this.
They used that as their justification to invade the territory of another sovereign country, which they seemingly had no intention of leaving until they were forced out.
This idea of them having no interest in occupying neighbouring territory clearly isn't true, they're still occupying Syrian territory too.
Well yes, call me crazy but I don't happen to consider ethnic cleansing the only solution.
I'd expect Israel to stop being an occupying force and actually do the human thing of giving Palestinians their nation and dignity. I also don't buy into that being some existential threat for Israel - not when you're looking at a heavily militarised nuclear power with the US as its biggest ally.
Syria occupied Lebanon after that. Untill 2005
Do you really doubt that this is not the intention of the Israeli state? it would require someone really naive or very ignorant to not read the actions of the Israeli state in the past few decades and not interpret it as their actual intentions which is the similar to their post in their official arabic twitter page.
Umm, it does? Golan heights
So?
That is what being Arab is. Palestinians have been Arabised over the years but aren't genetically Arab. Genetic Arabs originate from Yemen and moved up to occupy all of the land up to Jordan. There have been tribes that have migrated of course, In Palestine not so much but the Ummayad Caliphate who's capital was Damascus led to many Arabs migrating to Syria. The overall majority of those populations are not Arabs though and have been Arabised. Saying North Africans are Arabs is akin to saying Spanish and Portuguese people are also Arabs since some tribes migrated their during the Moorish period.
Okay true. But because of the six day war. Germany got a part of southern denmark despite losing the war.
They have just bombed a convoy of ambulances who were heading to the Rafah crossing.
What's the relevance?
I guess that none of this happens in vaccum
Eh?
You made the suggestion that Israel isn't interested in occupying neighbouring territory, a point that's easily refuted by their historical exploits in Lebanon, and the fact they are - you know, currently occupying neighbouring territory in Syria, something the international community itself agrees on. And let's not forget this is a country that to this date has refused to declare its borders. So your point hardly sticks.
The pro-Israeli lot on here seem to be fine with 'Yes, we're cnuts, but if you go back in time far enough you'll find even bigger cnuts who did worse things...so we're good.'
You're probably right but they did eventually give back most of the land they occupied after the 6 day war. But you're correct about Israel not declaring its borders and all that. I fundamentally dont disagree with you, just that Israel occupied territories other than Palestine after a war from its major neighbours to wipe them out where Israel won. Most those lands have been returned and a few havnt.
Ethnicity has a lot more to do with a shared history, language, culture, than it does with genetics. If those people consider themselves Arabs, other Arabs consider them Arabs, and they speak Arabic... they're Arabs. What's even the point in bringing DNA and genetics into this thread? It might be an interesting discussion, but this thread at this point is not the right place.
Well considering the whole reason this problem started in the first place was due to genetics and who are the rightful/first owners of the land, I'd say it's a pretty big deal.
Migration from the Arabian Peninsula into the Levant, Mesopotamia, and North Africa doesn’t seem to have been limited solely to that wave related to the early expansion of the Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphates. There was at least one other major significant wave of migration of Yemeni tribes to the Maghrib during the 11th and 12th centuries, while some historians have suggested that much of the Levant had already been populated by Arab tribes before the arrival of Islam. Even today there are many families in Palestine (e.g. the Nusseibehs) who can trace their lineage back to the Peninsula.
But in any case, I’m intrigued why you restrict your understanding of Arabness to a strictly genetic definition, while the vast majority of those who identify as Arab today - including the Palestinians themselves - are comfortable embracing a much broader understanding?
Nobody would describe Spanish and Portuguese as Arabs because they don’t speak Arabic or share in the cultural Arab heritage. However many of them undoubtedly have “Arab blood” so perhaps, by your own strictly genetic definition of Arabs, we actually should refer to those as Arabs.
Then you're optimistic than I am. No side will stop in my opinion, I see no optimism in this. I expect Israel to do nothing of the sort. They won't even consider it now for decades. The ship has sailed and attitudes have hardened. There's no trust and no hope.
I'm not sure if you 'expect' it as in actually think it might happen, or more have a moral expectation that it should happen. Because my opinion is although it should, it has no chance of doing so. None at all after the 7th.
The issue is Israel had no intention in pursuing that benevolent path to peace prior to October 7th, decades prior in fact. Let's not pretend the Israeli government on October 6th were dreaming of a friendly Palestinian nation at their doorstep. October 7th just gave them the blessing to do away with the notion publicly and pretend they now no longer have a choice, when in reality that choice has been available to them for decades.
I think you're misunderstanding me, my point was that Israel justify the taking of land, settlements etc. by accusing the Palestinians of being Arab 'invaders' and the 'we were here before you' rhetoric when that is complete fabrication. Yes there are some Palestinians that are Arabs, just like there are some Spanish/Portuguese people that are Arabs, the majority of the population aren't ethnically Arab and were there before they became Arabised through language, culture etc. The same is true in North Africa and the majority of countries in the levant.
I usually just go back as recent as WW2.
It’s interesting that in responding to what is essentially a “blood and soil” argument, you’re getting tied up in the same logic. The fact that the Palestinians fully identify as Arabs doesn’t mean many or most of them don’t have genetic roots in the land going way back before the 7th century. Identity and ethnicity are fluid concepts, subject to change over time, and defined by a common heritage that encompasses numerous elements to varying degrees depending on the context. What you call “Arabisation” is the historical process of various peoples adopting a common Arab heritage, and by extension identity, over many many centuries, thus making them Arabs in the modern world. Some have done so to a greater degree than others, and the Palestinians would certainly rank among them:
PLO Charter (1968) - “Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.”
I think the Saudis had it wrong when they dragged Khashoggi into that embassy to dismember him.
They would have gotten less flack if they had simply bombed the embassy while he was there
They would have gotten less flack if they had simply bombed the embassy while he was there
If all the victim countries would just rollover and die, then all major wars can be averted.
"Ethnic cleansing happens, its bad, its happened to the Palestinian people a bunch of times, but it's still the best option in this case"
Did someone here actually post that? Not sure how some of this shit is allowed in here but it is kind of expected.
If somebody had talked like that about Ukraine in the other thread, they would have got perma-banned.
Nice how you’re all piling on, but your preferred solution is just to let a whole load of people die, because you can offer no other option. I specifically said it as a suggestion in the context of there being no other even remotely realistic path out of this mess.
Who has a better vaguely realistic option?
Who has a better vaguely realistic option?