Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Roane]

Seeing videos of Israeli police beating up Jews for showing sympathy towards the Palestinians. In Israel.

But Hamas...

 

[Ainu]

Harrowing to watch. They have genuinely internalised this ‘we are the good guys’ bullshit. They really think they’re the good guys in this fight. These people are just as vile as the idiots who openly support Hamas.

It's hardly surprising or shocking that a soldier thinks he's on the "good" side. I'm assuming almost every soldier in every war believes that. They get fed that idea 24/7 by their governments, media, military hierarchy, etc. Not a justification by the way, just the sad reality of war.

 

[That_Bloke]

Harrowing to watch. They have genuinely internalised this ‘we are the good guys’ bullshit. They really think they’re the good guys in this fight. These people are just as vile as the idiots who openly support Hamas.

There's been too much hate built up on both sides for way too long for any of them to have any kind of rational long-term project implying a peaceful coexistence.

That's why, unless the international community steps in and given the utter discrepancy in the balance of power, it's only going one way.

 

[That_Bloke]

It's hardly surprising or shocking that a soldier thinks he's on the "good" side. I'm assuming almost every soldier in every war believes that. They get fed that idea 24/7 by their governments, media, military hierarchy, etc. Not a justification by the way, just the sad reality of war.

It goes way beyond that in this case.

They're openly talking about extermination, plain and simple. There's no distinction between civilians and militants whatsoever and the Palestinians are all fair game. I don't care about what the mother says but if it's the mindset of all Israeli soldiers going in, brace yourself because you're going to see horrors and an amount of casualties like we've rarely seen.

 

[Revan]

Pardon my ignorance, but where is Palestine's backing ? Would it not be in their neighbours interest to retaliate ? If Israel can be backed by America & co... ?

Israel beat in wars Egypt 4 times, Syria 3 times, and Jordan twice. Neither of them is crazy enough to military retaliate, especially considering that Israel is far more powerful than back then.

The only possible retaliations are from militia groups such as Hezbollah, in some type of asymmetric guerilla warfare. But Iran will not sanction that considering that is is Iran's most powerful weapon (so will save it if the Tehran regime is really threatened).

 

[Roane]

Israel beat in wars Egypt 4 times, Syria 3 times, and Jordan twice. Neither of them is crazy enough to military retaliate, especially considering that Israel is far more powerful than back then.

The only possible retaliations are from militia groups such as Hezbollah, in some type of asymmetric guerilla warfare. But Iran will not sanction that considering that is is Iran's most powerful weapon (so will save it if the Tehran regime is really threatened).

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

 

[Smores]

It's hardly surprising or shocking that a soldier thinks he's on the "good" side. I'm assuming almost every soldier in every war believes that. They get fed that idea 24/7 by their governments, media, military hierarchy, etc. Not a justification by the way, just the sad reality of war.

It's hardly shocking an oppressed people turn to extremism and terrorism either but that too should be called out.

I don't disagree with your point it is both a byproduct of propaganda and group-think that promotes righteousness and dehumanizes the enemy. However,
there's a common theme in this discussion where Israeli actions/views are discounted as just an inevitability. The issue being it removes any judgment and attempts to make atrocious acts unworthy of ascribing blame. When you start to do that it supports the very phenomenon you're describing.

 

[mitChley]

Saw a tweet earlier that had the list of Palestinian deaths, sorted by age, you had 6 pages of '0 years' before you got to '1 year'. Disgusting.

 

[RedC]

The real mistake Hamas made was actually saying the quiet part out loud in their charter(I know it has been changed), IDF know better.

 

[VorZakone]

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

A Guardian article mentions that Israel was outnumbered in the Yom Kippur war. And this source mentions that Israel was outnumbered in the 6 Days War.

What do the likes of Avi Shlaim claim the manpower figures were? I'm not talking weapons technology, I mean manpower.

And go ahead, if it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries, then who joined Israel? American troops?

 

[Drizzle]

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

It depends how you look at it. If you zoom in on Israel and its immediate vicinity, it has military power, economic power and the backing of the world's superpower. It looks like, and acts like, a huge bully to the Palestinians.

Zoom out even slightly though and you have a country of 8-9 million people surrounded by countries with hundreds of millions that want it wiped off the map. Including nations with vast oil wealth that dwarf Israel's multiple times over.

Israel is geographically tiny, has zero strategic depth, at one point its only 10 miles wide, so it cannot afford even tiny incursions as they would be an existential threat. There's nowhere to retreat to. Therefore military strategy is all about pre-emption, disproportionate deterrence, brutal reprisals. In a region where weakness is mocked and preyed upon, and where it's surrounded by enemies, Israel feels it has to be the biggest bully in the neighbourhood and it can't tolerate any kind of genuine threat to develop.

Disclaimer. This is not a justification for Israeli war crimes. I'm trying to explain the Israeli mentality and military doctrine. And explain why it's been (relatively) successful in previous wars, and why it's being so brutal in this one.

 

[Pintu]

 

[flameinthesun]

Not sure if it's been posted but Piers Morgan has a fantastic 2 hour interview with Bassem Youssef.

 

[2mufc0]

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

I'm not sure about the numbers but from the reading I've done the Arab armies were poorly trained and organised compared to the Israelis. In terms of weaponry Israeli had the upper hand in earlier wars but the Soviets did give better weaponry to the Arabs in later wars.

However, the latter wars were never really about Palestine, the Egyptians and Syrians were more focused on regaining the Sinai and Golan.

 

[Revan]

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

Definitely not David vs Goliath, but Arabs should have done better. Also, different wars, difference circumstances.

1948 War: Arabs should have won. Israel was just created and Arabs had a significant (10s of times) population advantage. Both had shit armies, but Arabs did not manage to mobilize their armies, while Israel being in a fight for survival managed to mobilize everyone who could fight. Still, 5 Arab states attacked Israel, whom also had lots of Arabs in the state fighting against Israel. Arabs actually were doing quite well at the beginning, but after the ceasefire, Israel managed to get massive funding (Golda Meier raised lots of money from wealthy Jews in the US) and used that funding to get weapons from Czechoslovakia. While Arabs were busy deciding whom should lead the combined forces. After the fighting resumed, Israel defeated them. This is the only time Arabs could have won, they were favorites to win. No one helped Israel in this war.

Suez Crisis: Israel, pushed from France and the UK, easily occupied Sinai. Then France and the UK joined Israel in the fight against Egypt. Egypt had no chance. The US and the USSR put an ultimatum in Israel, France and the UK to leave Egypt, which they did.

6-day war: By this stage, Israel had become a military superpower. On the first day of the fight they destroyed the entire air fleet of Egypt. Egypt, instead of telling Jordan and Syria the tactics Israel used (flying low and first destroying the airfields, leaving Egyptian planes as sitting ducks) told them that they are winning against Israel. Then a few hours later, Israel did the same to Jordan, Syria and the only airport Iraq had from which they could reach Israel, reaching total air supremacy. Probably the most well-executed attack in modern history. After this, the war was short, and Israel easily won. No one helped Israel.

Yom Kippur war: Egypt and Syria did far better this time, and had some initial success. However, Israel at this stage was even more powerful, and at worst case scenario, could have nuked them. The US helped Israel by giving some ammunition and weapons, but at the end of the day, Israel was always going to win.

So, I think the Arabs could have done far better in the first war and arguably should have win it. Egypt had no chance in the second one. Arab armies had awful military tactics in the third war and got humiliated, while did ok in the fourth war, but at that stage Israel was in a different level military.

Right now, Israel has a more powerful army that Arabs combined, mostly because their Air Force should be able to destroy all Middle Eastern Air Forces combined.

 

[berbatrick]

 

[Moby]

Keyword "like us".

 

[Adisa]

Bible teaches no such thing.

 

[Adisa]

Don't know if it has been posted.

 

[Raoul]

Don't know if it has been posted.

Was posted a couple of pages ago. A bad look for the assailants here.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Gehrman]

The wars with the Arabs are always portrayed as a sort of David v Goliath. With Israel being David.

However if you really look into the detail and read the stuff written by the likes of Avi Shlaim (Oxford iirc). Israel always had the numerical advantage and the weaponary advantage.

Also worth noting is how a country with less than a million people was able to outnumber, militarily, the Arabs in such short timescales? Id hazard a guess at it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries

Lots of troops from colonial powers who seemingly kept it a secret?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Posted those numbers earlier.

This is who we're meant to believe only "took a turn" after October 7th.

 

[2cents]

1948 War: Arabs should have won. Israel was just created and Arabs had a significant (10s of times) population advantage. Both had shit armies, but Arabs did not manage to mobilize their armies, while Israel being in a fight for survival managed to mobilize everyone who could fight. Still, 5 Arab states attacked Israel, whom also had lots of Arabs in the state fighting against Israel. Arabs actually were doing quite well at the beginning, but after the ceasefire, Israel managed to get massive funding (Golda Meier raised lots of money from wealthy Jews in the US) and used that funding to get weapons from Czechoslovakia. While Arabs were busy deciding whom should lead the combined forces. After the fighting resumed, Israel defeated them. This is the only time Arabs could have won, they were favorites to win. No one helped Israel in this war.

Just to add, the Arabs suffered from a lack of coordination and internal rivalries throughout. That is both the Palestinian Arabs up to May 48, and the neighboring states after. The Palestinians were still devastated by the failure of the 1936-39 revolt which decimated their leadership and strengthened the Yishuv’s economy. There was no coordinated, grand strategy to achieve victory. Villages, towns, etc. fought alone, there was a disconnect between rural and urban areas, and tribal and political cleavages further hampered any unified war effort. And they severely underestimated the Jews’ capacity to fight and determination to win.

Egyptian and Syrian opposition to Jordanian plans was a serious problem after the Arab invasion. Jordan pretty much came to an understanding with Israel regarding the West Bank, and Egyptian action was as much designed to prevent Hashimite dominance in Palestine as it was the Zionist victory.

 

[Sweet Square]

Posted those numbers earlier.

This is who we're meant to believe only "took a turn" after October 7th.

Oh my bad didn’t see it. Yep a lot of Israeli society was already in the extreme long before the attacks in October 7th.

 

[Drizzle]

This is probably true. If you reduce the prospects for success of relatively peaceful protest and negotiation, you empower the murderers and extremists.

 

[Giggsyking]

Countries have done far worse things than Israel (so far). Perceptions can change fairly quickly.

Yes, it is a race to the bottom, but Israel as a state is not far from the worst place, since the day of declaration of their state starting with ethnic cleansing of 800k Palestinians.

 

[the_cliff]

This is probably true. If you reduce the prospects for success of relatively peaceful protest and negotiation, you empower the murderers and extremists.

It also helps when you're creating hundreds of orphans daily.

This is the problem that Israel finds itself in, they can get rid of Hamas but the way they're going about it will only create another.

 

[Kaos]

This is probably true. If you reduce the prospects for success of relatively peaceful protest and negotiation, you empower the murderers and extremists.

Yep. Without endorsing the horrific and frankly terror-motivated actions of Hamas, its worth remembering that the peaceful approach hasn't worked - not for the PLO/Fatah, or anything that's preceded them. Couple that to sentiments already mentioned here where the vast majority of Israelis support using live ammunition to quell posters peacefully marching towards the border, and its not hard to say why we are where we are. You can also see throughout history how peaceful protest seldom led to any sort of just resolution, especially not with a government who's real intention is anything but that. And on top of that, the so called leaders of the free world have done nothing to quell that oppression (on the contrary they've protected it, if the UNSC is anything to go by), so why would the desperate Palestinian population be hopeful with the peaceful approach?

 

[Roane]

A Guardian article mentions that Israel was outnumbered in the Yom Kippur war. And this source mentions that Israel was outnumbered in the 6 Days War.

What do the likes of Avi Shlaim claim the manpower figures were? I'm not talking weapons technology, I mean manpower.

And go ahead, if it wasn't just Israel fighting those countries, then who joined Israel? American troops?

Well let's look at the 1948 war.

We know now that King Abdullah was in secret negotiations with Golda Meir where he refused to take part over certain borders, having been promised certain lands.

Arab legion was British officered but still the soldiers were given inferior weapons. At the same time the Jewish army had British trained soldiers from British units fighting. Weapons given through Czechoslovakia.

Same British officered Arab legion refused to fight past a certain point.

The Balfour agreement had said Britain would support the fledgling Israeli state.

The UN partition plan has US and USSR backing, same USSR who pressured Czechoslovakia.

Soldiers on the ground isn't the only way to fight a war. There are plenty of examples of that outside of Israel. Iran Iraq for one.

Even currently America sent military personnel to "advise" on how to carry out a ground offensive. They sent money and weapons and put ships in the ocean to warn off others. To say Israel alone is bombing the hell out of civilians is false. There are a few other countries who need to take a look at themselves.

And I would say of Arab govts weren't corrupt and sellouts etc then they wouldn't keep getting the arses handed to them.

 

[Kaos]

Just to add, the Arabs suffered from a lack of coordination and internal rivalries throughout. That is both the Palestinian Arabs up to May 48, and the neighboring states after. The Palestinians were still devastated by the failure of the 1936-39 revolt which decimated their leadership and strengthened the Yishuv’s economy. There was no coordinated, grand strategy to achieve victory. Villages, towns, etc. fought alone, there was a disconnect between rural and urban areas, and tribal and political cleavages further hampered any unified war effort. And they severely underestimated the Jews’ capacity to fight and determination to win.

Egyptian and Syrian opposition to Jordanian plans was a serious problem after the Arab invasion. Jordan pretty much came to an understanding with Israel regarding the West Bank, and Egyptian action was as much designed to prevent Hashimite dominance in Palestine as it was the Zionist victory.

Another thing worth considering was the hierarchal structure within the Arab militaries. Commanding officers were seldom promoted due to merit and experience, and the whole structure was built on nepotism and paranoia. Hardly a recipe for an effective military. The modern Iraqi military seem to have learned the lessons of that judging from the ISIS campaign, but the likes of Syria and Egypt are still sticking to kind.

 

[Raoul]

This is probably true. If you reduce the prospects for success of relatively peaceful protest and negotiation, you empower the murderers and extremists.

The PLO (Arafat) allegedly turned down a far better deal than anything that has been on the table lately, at a time when the Palestinians were still largely homogenous in their leadership. Hamas simply never had the ability to speak for all Palestinians given the Hamas-Fatah / Gaza-WB divide over the past couple of decades, so their answer was basically to become an Iranian proxy, which as we're seeing now, hasn't worked out very well for them.

 

[Drizzle]

The PLO (Arafat) allegedly turned down a far better deal than anything that has been on the table lately, at a time when the Palestinians were still largely homogenous in their leadership. Hamas simply never had the ability to speak for all Palestinians given the Hamas-Fatah / Gaza/WB dynamic over the past couple of decades, so their answer was basically to become an Iranian proxy.

You're right historically and there's plenty of blame on both sides for missed opportunities.

I think the analysis was more based on the last decade of bellicose Netanyahu politics in Israel which has deliberately frozen and undermined prospects for peace. Even there there's blame on both sides too, especially iran. And there can never be justification for 7/10.

 

[stevoc]

This is from an israeli documentary film… I believe these to be the official subtitles.

Yeah I've did a bit of digging and yes seems to be the case. I genuinely don't know what to say about those comments.

 

[LARulz]

Worth a watch, me thinks. It's Piers Morgan, but the interviewee is truly worth listening to if one wants to understand the "arab street".

I do like this guy (Bassem, not Piers). He is much calmer here than on the earlier one cos down the line interviews are always ridiculous for serious discussions

 

[the_cliff]

 

[4bars]

this will go over 20k deaths. will UEDA, FIFA and IOC suspend the Israel participation in its competitions? will be any international sanctions? exclusions? Any other country that would do what Israel is doing would be internationally punished

 

[Kaos]

I keep hearing that these fascist nutters are on the fringes of Israeli society, yet all these quotes I'm reading seem to be coming from ministers?

 

[RedC]

He is probably just another bad egg, doesn't represent the whole government.

 

[Revan]

I keep hearing that these fascist nutters are on the fringes of Israeli society, yet all these quotes I'm reading seem to be coming from ministers?

Israel's current government is full of religious alt-right crazies.