Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

JPRouve said:
The West comes from the Orient-Occident dichotomy which isn't a term primarily used nor invented by non-Europeans. Occident is and has been used for centuries by Europeans to describe themselves and they used Orients to described cultures that are on the eastern side of Eurasia.

And in the context of geopolitics every single term is an invented construct.
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Orient is no longer used either and has been replaced by "Asian" in the US at least. Oriental is now relegated to being a discriminatory term.
 
Denis79 said:
This is the biggest problem and not just in this conflict , the media which is supposed to be the people's extended arm (at least in democracies), is acting on behalf of their government instead, pushing political agendas, not asking questions or only asking the questions that push a certain viewpoint.
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The media is not and never have been the first bolded section and the second bolded part, with a few exceptions, have always been this
 


The hypocrite has spoken. And he made a Freudian slip saying "hospitals must not be protected".
 
Raoul said:
Orient is no longer used either and has been replaced by "Asian" in the US at least. Oriental is now relegated to being a discriminatory term.
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It absolutely is used and it's not discriminatory.
 
Raoul said:
Orient is no longer used either and has been replaced by "Asian" in the US at least. Oriental is now relegated to being a discriminatory term.
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Orient is just the Latin word for 'east' and is still used as a largely accepted geographical term, 'Oriental' in context of describing someone or a group of people is what's considered discriminatory.
 


With Russia making a move on Ukraine and this happening now, it's probably only a matter of time till China make their move on Taiwan.
 
the_cliff said:


With Russia making a move on Ukraine and this happening now, it's probably only a matter of time till China make their move on Taiwan.
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I don't think this is as impending as some claim it to be. Truthfully, I feel like China has no intention of starting a war to claim Taiwan, not while they're making strides to expand themselves as a global player, and having watched how Putin's mess has unfolded in Ukraine, coupled to the global ramifications of that, I don't think we'll be seeing any sort of military action any time soon.

They'll of course continue to carry out provocative military drills around the Island, but will stop short of any sort of invasion.
 


He said that Hamas acts was against international law,

but now it's Israel in question he thinks its not the rule of politicians to pronounce day by day which act is a breach of international laws.
 
Giggsyking said:


He said that Hamas acts was against international law,

but now it's Israel in question he thinks its not the rule of politicians to pronounce day by day which act is a breach of international laws.
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He also didn't stutter when claiming Russia was guilty of war crimes.

'Unwise of politicians to say so' my arse. He's absolutely petrified of stating the obvious here.
 
Probably a bit late to the game but I just saw what the Israeli delegation did at the UN with regards to putting on those yellow stars. Holy feck. Absolutely disgraceful behavior. I'm so happy my grandfather who spent time helping Jewish people in WW2 and was put in a camp for it temporarily is not alive to see how they make a mockery of the Holocaust.
 
Kaos said:
He also didn't stutter when claiming Russia was guilty of war crimes.

'Unwise of politicians to say so' my arse. He's absolutely petrified of stating the obvious here.
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To be fair, he is correct. It is unwise for a politician to make that type of deliberation when he isn't currently leading the government of one of the leading nations and when it concerns an ally. It's politically unwise.
 
Giggsyking said:


Listen to their officials, they are not trying to hide, this example above is one of tens of videos of officials showing their true faces. But the problem is not them, because we already know their true colours.
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This guy is not an official. He's a former official, so he's not talking based on any true information he gets. He's also a right wing nut.

So basically, he's saying what he'd like to see happen.
 
Denis79 said:
It's insane, how can anyone defend this? How is this justifiable? Are they really better than the terrorists they are fighting?
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It's harder to defend the longer it goes on.

Hence why we've moved to the "it's not genocide yet" and "to be clear, I don't like the war crimes" stage of support.
 
Amir said:
This guy is not an official. He's a former official, so he's not talking based on any true information he gets. He's also a right wing nut.

So basically, he's saying what he'd like to see happen.
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He is the reflection of the Israeli political system. When you listen to the former Israeli PM, you understand that what this guy is saying is nothing out of this world for Israeli politicians.
 
Giggsyking said:
He is the reflection of the Israeli political system. When you listen to the former Israeli PM, you understand that what this guy is saying is nothing out of this world for Israeli politicians.
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He's a reflection of some of the system. Not the majority. And he's mostly a reflection of the anger in the population following the October 7 attack. But there's a difference between him saying it and Israeli actually doing it.
 
JPRouve said:
To be fair, he is correct. It is unwise for a politician to make that type of deliberation when he isn't currently leading the government of one of the leading nations and when it concerns an ally. It's politically unwise.
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But there literally reports of international law violation from multiple sources one of them from a known British Judge and a paper written by 8 experts of international law if we exclude Amnesty investigation.
Also, he did not hesitate for once to call out war crimes by Hamas and Russia.
 
Redplane said:
Probably a bit late to the game but I just saw what the Israeli delegation did at the UN with regards to putting on those yellow stars. Holy feck. Absolutely disgraceful behavior. I'm so happy my grandfather who spent time helping Jewish people in WW2 and was put in a camp for it temporarily is not alive to see how they make a mockery of the Holocaust.
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People began to paint Stars of David on house walls, businesses started to ban Jews, you hear more often to kill Jews on demonstrations, on Social Media people with thousands of followers started to write Hitler did nothing wrong and lynch mobs started to appear. To be honest, it's not that far away from 1935 conditions now. For me it's more disgraceful, that western states do not take strict actions against this. This display may be tasteless, but from their point of view it may be necessary to open the world's eyes to what's happening to Jews now.
 
JPRouve said:
To be fair, he is correct. It is unwise for a politician to make that type of deliberation when he isn't currently leading the government of one of the leading nations and when it concerns an ally. It's politically unwise.
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And that there lies the issue. The country is completely sandbagged when it comes to Israel. Russia are an easy target to pile on considering Putin is Persona non grata so condemnation for his crimes in Ukraine is seen as an easy, if not obligatory thing to do. However for Israel its political suicide if you aren't towing the line. A Tory MP sacked for calling for a feckin ceasefire yesterday, and agreeing to anything but Israel's murderous course of action in Gaza is interpreted as nothing but an approval of Hamas and their crimes on October 7th.

The issue with Starmer is he seems to double down on the sentiment, going as far as claiming Israel has the right to cut off food, water and electricity. There's playing it politically safe, then there's advocating sheer cruelty just to hammer home the message he's not Corbyn, even if it comes at the expense of his party's supposed principles, and that of his party's traditional supporters.
 
Ragnar123 said:
People began to paint Stars of David on house walls, businesses started to ban Jews, you hear more often to kill Jews on demonstrations, on Social Media people with thousands of followers started to write Hitler did nothing wrong and lynch mobs started to appear. To be honest, it's not that far away from 1935 conditions now. For me it's more disgraceful, that western states do not take strict actions against this. This display may be tasteless, but from their point of view it may be necessary to open the world's eyes to what's happening to Jews now.
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The world got a lot more dangerous for Jews, but to compare it to the 1930s, at least in the West, is a sick joke.
 
Giggsyking said:
But there literally reports of international law violation from multiple sources one of them from a known British Judge and a paper written by 8 experts of international law if we exclude Amnesty investigation.
Also, he did not hesitate for once to call out war crimes by Hamas and Russia.
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There is no but. The point that I made isn't one of righteousness but the reality of politics and geopolitics. Russia and Hamas are and have been considered and treated as international criminals by the leading nations and they are not allies of the likes of the US, UK or France. Judging them negatively has no consequences because it has already been done by the people at the top of the hierarchy, the part that is unwise is to do it when the top of the hierarchy is still protecting their ally.

You can apply that logic to Turkey or Saudi Arabia, when they misbehave policians are logically silent because both are supposed to be allies.
 
Ragnar123 said:
People began to paint Stars of David on house walls, businesses started to ban Jews, you hear more often to kill Jews on demonstrations, on Social Media people with thousands of followers started to write Hitler did nothing wrong and lynch mobs started to appear. To be honest, it's not that far away from 1935 conditions now. For me it's more disgraceful, that western states do not take strict actions against this. This display may be tasteless, but from their point of view it may be necessary to open the world's eyes to what's happening to Jews now.
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The bit in bold seems to imply that Western governments are giving free rein to anti-semitism, but surely that's not the case at all? To me it feels like they are very quick to condemn anyone for showing less than unconditional support to Israël, in a way that I definitely don't always feel is justified.

Don't mistake this as an attempt to downplay what is happening though. The examples of increasing anti-semitism are disturbing and frightening and should absolutely be dealt with adequately. It is ok to be angry about the atrocities that have happened and are still going on, but we should all be wary that this anger is directed at those that deserve it, and without resorting to violence. And that goes both ways.
 
do.ob said:
The world got a lot more dangerous for Jews, but to compare it to the 1930s, at least in the West, is a sick joke.
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Who compares it?
I write the conditions are not that far away from how they started in Germany. In the beginning, there were paintings of Stars of David on house walls and businesses, Jews were not allowed to go into certain areas and a big public campaign to dehumanize Jews that lead into everything we know. I don't say that the follow up will be the same, nor is it the same scale of course, but you can't deny the similarities in the beginnings.
And I also don't think the Israeli delegation wanted to compare, but open peoples eyes to what's happening now through a shock, provocation, disgraceful display, however you want to call it.
 
do.ob said:
The world got a lot more dangerous for Jews, but to compare it to the 1930s, at least in the West, is a sick joke.
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If I'm being honest, I think Islamaphobia is far more an issue, especially in the UK. Muslims get unfairly targeted all the time. I had an argument with someone the other day who said our PM was Muslim and we will all be praying to Allah in 20 years. I pointed out he's Hindu and the response was 'Nah he's Muslim, but it doesn't matter, they are all the same'

It doesn't help when our own Government and Politicians keep coming out with shit like they do. All siding with Israel and claiming the protests and rallies are hate rallies and everyone attending is anti-Semitic. I'm not saying there isn't a definite problem for Jews in the UK, many racists hate Jews and Muslims equally as well as Blacks and Asians, but from my observations, Islamaphobia is definitely more prevalent.
 
Amir said:
This guy also views me an "an ememy to the jewish state" because I'm liberal and non-religious...

He's some idiot who was born and raised in Iran before leaving 20 years ago. He has very extreme, and dangerous, views.
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Yes, and to be clear I am sure that his views is not representative of you or the civilian population of Israel. He is though talking in line with the actions of fanatics in the Likud who are actually in power and making decisions now. And that is scary.
 
Ragnar123 said:
Who compares it?
I write the conditions are not that far away from how they started in Germany. In the beginning, there were paintings of Stars of David on house walls and businesses, Jews were not allowed to go into certain areas and a big public campaign to dehumanize Jews that lead into everything we know. I don't say that the follow up will be the same, nor is it the same scale of course, but you can't deny the similarities in the beginnings.
And I also don't think the Israeli delegation wanted to compare, but open peoples eyes to what's happening now through a shock, provocation, disgraceful display, however you want to call it.
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The role of governments is the literal opposite. In 193x the Nazis themselves were driving the persecution to new depths, in 2023 (Western) governments are defending Israel to the point of having to stretch their own morals.
 
Amir said:
This guy is not an official. He's a former official, so he's not talking based on any true information he gets. He's also a right wing nut.

So basically, he's saying what he'd like to see happen.
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Although I have more sympathy than most around here for Israel, it's quite plain to me that their aim at this point is to ethnically cleanse a big part or (if they can) all of Gaza. Western left wing observers are trapped in a bizarre occidental fantasy echo chamber from 1995 where two state solutions are taken seriously by either side as an alternate solution. This is now a religious war and our moral compasses have no resonance with either of the combatants.
 
JPRouve said:
There is no but. The point that I made isn't one of righteousness but the reality of politics and geopolitics. Russia and Hamas are and have been considered and treated as international criminals by the leading nations and they are not allies of the likes of the US, UK or France. Judging them negatively has no consequences because it has already been done by the people at the top of the hierarchy, the part that is unwise is to do it when the top of the hierarchy is still protecting their ally.

You can apply that logic to Turkey or Saudi Arabia, when they misbehave policians are logically silent because both are supposed to be allies.
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I agree. But I had to give an examples where he did "as a politician" pronounce violations in international law.
 
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Ragnar123 said:
People began to paint Stars of David on house walls, businesses started to ban Jews, you hear more often to kill Jews on demonstrations, on Social Media people with thousands of followers started to write Hitler did nothing wrong and lynch mobs started to appear. To be honest, it's not that far away from 1935 conditions now. For me it's more disgraceful, that western states do not take strict actions against this. This display may be tasteless, but from their point of view it may be necessary to open the world's eyes to what's happening to Jews now.
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This is a ridiculous post and I'm struggling with where to start.

I abhor discrimination of any sort, being brown Muslim I've had my share.

I would stand next to a Jewish person against Muslims if they were being discriminated against in this country simply for being Jewish and because of what's happening in Israel.

That all said I think some "fears" being highlighted on shows like LBC are heightening unwarranted tensions. And your post is as far fetched as they come

I can imagine a Jewish person walking past a demonstration being uncomfortable, even scared (even if no one said anything). But to suggest it's anything like 30's Germany and that western states are not taking strict actions is ludicrous
 
Roane said:
You know when 9/11 happened and we were all shocked and wondered how someone could do this? To this day, as a Muslim, I can't believe some people thought it was ok to get into planes and crash them into buildings killing themselves and killing people who were innocent


Watching this killing going on in Gaza currently and the stances of various governments would anyone be really that surprised if a kid growing up there, with no ties to Hamas etc grew up to be a terrorist?
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No.

Anyone with half a brain and any understanding of conflicts like this in the past will know that for every member of Hamas they kill they're probably killing 10-20 civilians. And those civilians have family members, many of which will want revenge and join Hamas.

I can't for one second imagine that the Israelis aren't aware of this, so the only theory I have is they are ok with Hamas coming back as they need a boogeyman to justify the way they treat Palestinians and steal their land.
 
Whole neighborhood of Jalabia been razed by 6 bombs. Each bomb 1 tonne

Huge massacre according to head of Indonesian hospital. Bodies piling up outside the hospital
 
stevoc said:
No.

Anyone with half a brain and any understanding of conflicts like this in the past will know that for every member of Hamas they kill they're probably killing 10-20 civilians. And those civilians have family members, many of which will want revenge and join Hamas.

I can't for one second imagine that the Israelis aren't aware of this, so the only theory I have is they are ok with Hamas coming back as they need a boogeyman to justify the way they treat Palestinians and steal their land.
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Hamas claim that 85% of their combat units are composed of orphans. Is that figure BS? Probably. But it doesn't surprise me to see kids being easily shepherded into Hamas' arms considering everything they've lost and the hatred that's been allowed to cultivate inside of them after the horrors they've experienced.
 
Mike Smalling said:
More misfiring Hamas rockets no doubt.
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Yep. The munitions detectives will start the same thorough examination of the blast with the same level of scrutiny they've afforded similar explosions in Ukraine.

That or the usual caveat of how the IDF courteously warned the desperate people of Gaza they were about to bomb a refugee camp, so they should really consider beelining it into the Sinai desert, after which they'd definitely be allowed back in once this has all blown over (quite literally).
 
Kaos said:
Hamas claim that 85% of their combat units are composed of orphans. Is that figure BS? Probably. But it doesn't surprise me to see kids being easily shepherded into Hamas' arms considering everything they've lost and the hatred that's been allowed to cultivate inside of them after the horrors they've experienced.
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Absolutely, I'm from Northern Ireland and I know from personal experience that the various atrocities that the British Army carried out here in the 70's (where they murdered Men, Women and Children) with the mindset that they would 'Break' people. Achieved nothing more than acting as a mass recruitment drive for Republican Paramilitary groups.
 
Kaos said:
Hamas claim that 85% of their combat units are composed of orphans. Is that figure BS? Probably. But it doesn't surprise me to see kids being easily shepherded into Hamas' arms considering everything they've lost and the hatred that's been allowed to cultivate inside of them after the horrors they've experienced.
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Some of the early reports from people at the music festival did say the attackers looked like 16/17 year olds

It was in one of the paper reports after the event.

I'm just thinking about that journalist whose family was targetted
 
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