So your essential claim is that the vast majority of Zionists in no way support what the Israeli government are doing and have done to Palestinians, in no way hold any racist notions towards them, and do not want to expel them from what they consider to be Israel? That doesn't really gel with everything I have experienced through the media and internet as an outsider, but you are obviously far more informed and connected to this than I am.
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Because you know me and follow my personal life . Your ill faithed question has nothing to do with my comment. I denounced Hamas throughout the years and when they attacked civilians. Doesn't justify their attempted genocide of innocent Palestinians with the aid of the West.
Why did AQ & ISIL have websites showing & glorifying the atrocities they committed?
Propaganda & recruitment. Capturing the 10.7 atrocities on camera was not a 'whoopsie.'
This is a PR stunt for the shameless so called liberals in the West…
If it were genuinely addressed to the palestinians it would be conveyed in Arabic like most of the terror messaging they‘ve sent their way….
They may not have burned but they did buy land, usually from International owners who had come in following Ottoman defeats in the late 19th century and early 20th century, with the explicit intention of colonising it and depopulating it of its Arab population. For instance, this. I can't think of many comparable moments of modern history where a population not currently living in a piece of land moves to a piece of land which houses a population with the aim of settling it and the population welcomes them with open arms. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
There was never going to be a way for Zionists to achieve their aim in that land without a backlash from the population also inhabiting it. They also knew that. They achieved their aim and won. That has happened now and what has happened in the past cannot be undone. So yes, I agree that modern day zionists do not need to be maximalist in their aims for a Greater Israel.
But the moral point to me is the same. Land you do not currently own but you feel you have a religious/ historical obligation to settle. Yes, you don't need to destroy those peoples' dignity now but the aim is the same is it not, even if the underlying situation with regards to safety may not be?
Ironically, in quite a few interviews with these kinds of settlers (as well as my interactions with them on my last visit to the West Bank), that was essentially their argument. Fine, people can hate me. But how is what I'm doing different to what we did in the 1900s?
What does this mean practically today? Little really to be honest and we're quibbling about theoreticals. Israel will do what it wants to do, backed up by the region's most powerful military and the world's superpower. I just don't see the founder principles of Zionism, in so much as they aimed to set up the state on a land with a people already on it, as grossly and morally different from the modern day settlers. The methods and aggression, as well as how much religion plays a role, are of course different though.
If the Zionist movement had had its aims been on a genuinely depopulated land, or at the expense of one of the countries which had caused the Jews to suffer so much (ie Germany), I'd have been the first one in support.
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Expulsion of the Arabs was inherent to zionism from the beginning.
"[T]ransfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism—because it sought to transform a land which was ‘Arab’ into a ‘Jewish’ state and a Jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of Arab population; and because this aim automatically produced resistance among the Arabs which, in turn, persuaded the Yishuv’s leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure" Benny Morris, Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, p. 60
They also don't have access to the Internet.
AQ and ISIL are diffrent. They are proud of terrorising “infidels”.. The entire planet sees through them.
Hamas is different. It portrays itself as a religious National liberation movement.… Israel, the US and their closest allies have Hamas in their terror list, but nobody in the global south followed suit… Actually Hamas was working through the justice system of Europe to remove this. This attack will kill any hope of Hamas normalisation…
Hamas has existed for over 40 years and they‘ve had a lot of despicable communication… but intentionally glorifying deliberate atrocities wasn’t always part of their operation (at least not over the last 10 years).
And the expert in this CNN article says:
“I don’t think Hamas wanted us to see” the videos of attacks on civilians, said Gina Ligon, a counterterrorism expert who analyzed the footage for CNN. “That is not congruent with their narrative that they’re defenders of Palestine — that was terrorism.”
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CNN's counterterrorism expert seems to think Hamas didn't want us to see the atrocities, I was questioning that logic.
This from somebody who presumably would protest that Palestinians aren't Hamas nor support their methods.... Only pull this argument out when it suits you I guess.
ZioNazis
I don't know you nor do you know me. We can only judge each other by our posts on here. And forgive me if I wasn't impressed by you calling decent posters here (who may have a different take than you) such as owlo 'cowards'. And you call my post ill-faithed?
Anyway, I thought,hey this chap is extremely upset about the events and the tragic and unnecessary loss of life. Presumably he'll also have been devastated by the brutal massacres on 7th October. I was amazed to find nothing of the sort. And you only started wading in when Israel responded. Strange.
The emboldening of extremists in the West Bank seems to continue apace:
More examples: Settlers rampage through Palestinian olive grove, harass activists in West Bank
More examples: Settlers rampage through Palestinian olive grove, harass activists in West Bank
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Anyone who uses the antisemitism line is probably an Islamophobe for supporting genocide of a Muslim race.
That's just gibberish.
Not sure this comparison makes as much sense as you thought it did.
Welcome back old friend. I've missed your nuanced takes on this complex situation.
Do tell.
It’s a common Israeli / pro-Israeli tactic to try and smear any criticism of their racist fascist government as antisemitic. They’ve even tried to make BDS as antisemitic.
It comes from my post where I mentioned most of the flavors of zionism. Your comparison makes little sense in that context because no one pretends that Hamas or in general the violent portion of the palestinian society aren't part of the palestinian society in the 21st century. It would be senseless to do it, the same it is senseless to pretend that jewish extremism isn't a thing within zionism in the 21st century, it defies the actual composition of the Knesset let alone the composition of Israel's society.
Well, history isn't made till something happens.
10.7 is currently rewritting the script of Hamas, so it seems.
We might be seeing the prism through which Hamas is viewed changing.
That's the kind of ridiculous blanket statements, and there's been a few now, from both sides, that bring nothing to the discussion.
Take a break from this thread.
I've been following this thread for a few weeks and its remarkable he's gone on this long unchecked. There is a clear underlying sentiment to what he posts.
That would resonate more if you were being more precise with your own arguments.
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It’s just as much of a ridiculous accusation of anyone spouting antisemitism for being against Israel. Laughable.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
The thread is taking a turn for the worse with this childish, and frankly brainless posts.
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Interesting you say that considering Israel has killed 7000 people to avenge the Hamas attack. It doesn’t make a right does it! Israel should not have been backed to ‘defend’ (which really meant avenge) itself!
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
I think that I've made my position about what's happening there quite clear in this thread.
I'm also not going to engage with someone who's obviously completely overwhelmed by his emotions. It would be a waste of time for both you and me.
They would if their citizens really wanted them to, being a democracy.
Rumours of around half million people in London. Incredible.
But discourse is full of 'you can't conflate Hamas with the Palestinians in general'. I understand you're not doing that though so I understand your counterpoint.
Hopefully nobody gets banned over the content posted over the last few pages as doing so would probably cut off the one place where their views can be challenged rather than falling in to an echo chamber.
Independent press footage from last night.
This is great. I couldn’t attend todays one annoyingly but a lot of the community down here did.
This guy reminds me a bit of Michael Ware, who is the goat of war correspondents imo.
Thats cool to know. Yeah same I couldn't make it today but will definitely go to the next one.