Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
Criticism of Israel and its supporters isn’t antisemitic.
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Are you saying it's impossible to criticise Israel in an antisemitic way? Because there are a thousand examples every day.

Of course criticising Israel isn't inherently antisemitic, but by the same token, criticising it doesn't remove all responsibility from those doing it from antisemitism. You don't get a free pass by saying 'zionist' a lot.
 
Drizzle said:
Are you saying it's impossible to criticise Israel in an antisemitic way? Because there are a thousand examples every day.

Of course criticising Israel isn't inherently antisemitic, but by the same token, criticising it doesn't remove all responsibility from those doing it from antisemitism. You don't get a free pass by saying 'zionist' a lot.
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Key is in the words. Criticism of Israels supporters and Zionism in general is anti semitism, but he doesn’t give a feck. Blinded by hatred. He approves of ripping kidnap posters off walls, and he is visibly supportive of Hamas too so it’s par for the course.
 
Drizzle said:
Are you saying it's impossible to criticise Israel in an antisemitic way? Because there are a thousand examples every day.

Of course criticising Israel isn't inherently antisemitic, but by the same token, criticising it doesn't remove all responsibility from those doing it from antisemitism. You don't get a free pass by saying 'zionist' a lot.
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I have other issues with the posts of The Corinthians mainly around the lack of quality of his twitter sources and in the last pages the Zelensky conspiracies but the term zionism isn't antisemitic, it is the proper term to use when you are talking about the the state of Israel and the term is used by israeli political parties.
 
JPRouve said:
I have other issues with the posts of The Corinthians mainly around the lack of quality of his twitter sources and in the last pages the Zelensky conspiracies but the term zionism isn't antisemitic, it is the proper term to use when you are talking about the the state of Israel and the term is used by israeli political parties.
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The term is fine. It simply means a supporter/defender of the Israeli state.
 
Mogget said:
Why did they have body cams then? That doesn't really make sense, are we to believe Hamas are smart enough to plan this attack but stupid enough to record it without expecting the footage to be captured?
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If Hamas were stupid enough to commit collective suicide on 10.7, then they were obviously stupid enough to wear body cameras while doing it. This is after all the Information Age, where people record everything they do to share with their friends and followers. In Hamas’ case, they were probably going to use the footage for propaganda and training purposes, much as ISIS routinely did in the mid 2010s.
 
owlo said:
The term is fine. It simply means a supporter/defender of the Israeli state.
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It's actually a definition that doesn't have any uniform consensus as to what it means, and even self-proclaimed Zionists can't agree on what it means at times.

There also exists a danger of using it to justify unsavoury goals. Some hardliners will claim it is by Zionist doctrine that they justify building illegal settlements and displacing Palestinians from their homes or to go beyond that - removing Palestinians entirely, and others of a more supremacist persuasion will claim it justifies Israel being a land where Jews hold rights above all others. Criticising those doctrines shouldn't be seen as verging into antisemitism.
 
JPRouve said:
It means a little bit more than that.
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As in any movement, there’s varying levels of support or radicalism. There’s obviously a load of nuance. I was trying to keep it as broad and inclusive as possible. For an example, some strains think that Jews can only be safe in israel not abroad. You saw a lot of people who don’t believe that immediately fly back to defend Israel in this conflict, but others like myself chose not to do so. I believe if it was truly existential, the vast majority of zionists would defend Israel.

On a base level, there’s no imperialist or aggressive intent in Zionism in the 21st century. Zionism also doesn’t mean that we support this conflict.
 
owlo said:
Key is in the words. Criticism of Israels supporters and Zionism in general is anti semitism, but he doesn’t give a feck. Blinded by hatred. He approves of ripping kidnap posters off walls, and he is visibly supportive of Hamas too so it’s par for the course.
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Stop talking shit.
 
owlo said:
As in any movement, there’s varying levels of support or radicalism. There’s obviously a load of nuance. I was trying to keep it as broad and inclusive as possible. For an example, some strains think that Jews can only be safe in israel not abroad. You saw a lot of people who don’t believe that immediately fly back to defend Israel in this conflict, but others like myself chose not to do so. I believe if it was truly existential, the vast majority of zionists would defend Israel.

On a base level, there’s no imperialist or aggressive intent in Zionism in the 21st century. Zionism also doesn’t mean that we support this conflict.
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I know what it means and most of the lines it represents which is very different to what you tried to initially portray. And zionism movements include aggressive intent, it includes racism, it includes a sense of superiority and a god given right to Zion.

Now it also includes far more moderate ideologies that are represented in Israel's society including the Knesset but the reality of the matter is that the majority of the representation is imperialists and aggressive.
 
Kaos said:
It's actually a definition that doesn't have any uniform consensus as to what it means, and even self-proclaimed Zionists can't agree on what it means at times.

There also exists a danger of using it to justify unsavoury goals. Some hardliners will claim it is by Zionist doctrine that they justify building illegal settlements and displacing Palestinians from their homes or to go beyond that - removing Palestinians entirely, and others of a more supremacist persuasion will claim it justifies Israel being a land where Jews hold rights above all others. Criticising those doctrines shouldn't be seen as verging into antisemitism.
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You’re right of course. Addressed that a little in the above post, but it’s one of the reasons that it’s difficult to make blanket statements about “Zionism.” I believe there are better ways to express distaste and criticise those.

I‘m happy to define myself a Zionist, but have also happily referred to West Bank settlers as terrorists (because they are), and Ben gvir and smotrich as foxes in the henhouse, because they are scum. A lot of us zionists specifically have not gone to fight in this conflict because we don’t want to kill innocents. And we have WhatsApp groups sharing the IDF emails along with our memes of how many Israeli pilots to kill one terrorist vs 50 kids.

But if it was existential, or another holocaust was happening, we’d be right there on the first flight back. We are zionists. People can mock and hate us all they like, pretend it’s not anti semitic, but we are evidently zionists because we are Jews.
 
owlo said:
Blinded by hatred. He approves of ripping kidnap posters off walls, and he is visibly supportive of Hamas too so it’s par for the course.
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Earlier in this thread you said you wished George W. Bush had invaded Iran. I would qualify that as considerably worse and more hateful than taking a few posters down.
 
owlo said:
You’re right of course. Addressed that a little in the above post, but it’s one of the reasons that it’s difficult to make blanket statements about “Zionism.” I believe there are better ways to express distaste and criticise those.

I‘m happy to define myself a Zionist, but have also happily referred to West Bank settlers as terrorists (because they are), and Ben gvir and smotrich as foxes in the henhouse, because they are scum. A lot of us zionists specifically have not gone to fight in this conflict because we don’t want to kill innocents. And we have WhatsApp groups sharing the IDF emails along with our memes of how many Israeli pilots to kill one terrorist vs 50 kids.

But if it was existential, or another holocaust was happening, we’d be right there on the first flight back. We are zionists. People can mock and hate us all they like, pretend it’s not anti semitic, but we are evidently zionists because we are Jews.
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Morally and ethically, to you, why are the modern day settlers different from the Jewish settlers who arrived in the first half of the 20th century? Is it purely because there is now a Jewish state when before there was none?
 
JPRouve said:
I know what it means and most of the lines it represents which is very different to what you tried to initially portray. And zionism movements include aggressive intent, it includes racism, it includes a sense of superiority and a god given right to Zion.

Now it also includes far more moderate ideologies that are represented in Israel's society including the Knesset but the reality of the matter is that the majority of the representation is imperialists and aggressive.
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No, they aren’t. The majority of Jews and Israelis just use Zionist in the way I stated.Why not ask the other Israelis and Jews here what it means to them? The crap you’re talking about is only mentioned in the extreme fringes and external echo chambers.
 
africanspur said:
Morally and ethically, to you, why are the modern day settlers different from the Jewish settlers who arrived in the first half of the 20th century? Is it purely because there is now a Jewish state when before there was none?
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When they arrived in the first half of the century, I don’t think (correct me if wrong) they were burning up Palestinian villages and terrorising them to leave so that they could settle. It wasn’t a campaign of terror to say “hey look, this is my land now, feck off or I’ll make your life a living hell.” They simply came to make a life for themselves as colonial settlers who thought they might have a historic claim. The settlers now have an entire country to live in, and they don’t need that land. They are just terrorists trying to do some ethnic cleansing because some loons in the government support it. They have a safe place now, they don’t need to destroy the dignity of others who already have a harder life.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Earlier in this thread you said you wished George W. Bush had invaded Iran. I would qualify that as considerably worse and more hateful than taking a few posters down.
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I still believe we’d have been better off as a world with regime change in Iran rather than in Iraq. I don’t say that with any hate. A large number of Iranians probably think so too.
 
owlo said:
I still believe we’d have been better off as a world with regime change in Iran rather than in Iraq. I don’t say that with any hate. A large number of Iranians probably think so too.
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I am aware that you like to pretend you are Dr. Manhattan here, calmly and dispassionately making rational assessments. But you are not.
 
Brown Toothpick said:


They cut off all communication and then say this. Absolute evil scum.
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It's completely indefensible. Anyone who supports Israel in this is morally bankrupt.

At this point you'd need military intervention to stop Israel's attempted genocide of the Palestinians.
 
owlo said:
No, they aren’t. The majority of Jews and Israelis just use Zionist in the way I stated.Why not ask the other Israelis and Jews here what it means to them? The crap you’re talking about is only mentioned in the extreme fringes and external echo chambers.
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Which are part of the entire thing. Why are you acting as if they weren't part of zionism, why are you acting as if they aren't part of zionism today? Unlike you I acknowledge all aspects of it the moderates, the pacifists and aggressive/racists, there is no need nor sense to pretend that a representative and represented part of zionism doesn't exist.
 
Halftrack said:
It's completely indefensible. Anyone who supports Israel in this is morally bankrupt.

At this point you'd need military intervention to stop Israel's attempted genocide of the Palestinians.
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You'll get cowards calling you antisemitic for criticising Israel.
 
owlo said:
No, they aren’t. The majority of Jews and Israelis just use Zionist in the way I stated.Why not ask the other Israelis and Jews here what it means to them? The crap you’re talking about is only mentioned in the extreme fringes and external echo chambers.
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Ah, it's just a few bad eggs. I must have gotten all the memes and viral TikTok trends mixed up.
 
owlo said:
When they arrived in the first half of the century, I don’t think (correct me if wrong) they were burning up Palestinian villages and terrorising them to leave so that they could settle. It wasn’t a campaign of terror to say “hey look, this is my land now, feck off or I’ll make your life a living hell.” They simply came to make a life for themselves as colonial settlers who thought they might have a historic claim. The settlers now have an entire country to live in, and they don’t need that land. They are just terrorists trying to do some ethnic cleansing because some loons in the government support it. They have a safe place now, they don’t need to destroy the dignity of others who already have a harder life.
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Not a campaign of terror and colonial settlers…
 
JPRouve said:
Which are part of the entire thing. Why are you acting as if they weren't part of zionism, why are you acting as if they aren't part of zionism today? Unlike you I acknowledge all aspects of it the moderate, the paciftists and aggressive/racists, there is no need nor sense to pretend that a representative and represented part of zionism doesn't exist.
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Because it's the same as calling muslims islamic extremist terrorists, because islamic extremist terrorists are part of Islam? If I constantly pushed discourse that Muslim = terrorist, many people would understandably be unhappy.

A tiny fringe doesn't define a movement or body. In no way is Zionism represented the way you're trying to represent it, any more than Islam is represented by Islamic Extremists.
 
owlo said:
Key is in the words. Criticism of Israels supporters and Zionism in general is anti semitism, but he doesn’t give a feck. Blinded by hatred. He approves of ripping kidnap posters off walls, and he is visibly supportive of Hamas too so it’s par for the course.
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So all those Jewish New Yorkers who protested last night were anti-semites?
 
Conor said:
Ah, it's just a few bad eggs. I must have gotten all the memes and viral TikTok trends mixed up.
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I can find plenty of viral tiktoks of Muslim extremists. Are all or even a large minority of Muslims asshats?
 
owlo said:
Because it's the same as calling muslims islamic extremist terrorists, because islamic extremist terrorists are part of Islam? If I constantly pushed discourse that Muslim = terrorist, many people would understandably be unhappy.

A tiny fringe doesn't define a movement or body. In no way is Zionism represented the way you're trying to represent it, any more than Islam is represented by Islamic Extremists.
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Kinda like this?
owlo said:


“Your war and destruction only approach has opened my eyes and many Palestinian Americans and Muslims Americans like me. We will remember where you stood.” kind of sounds like a threat to the United States.
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FireballXL5 said:
So all those Jewish New Yorkers who protested last night were anti-semites?
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They criticised Israel itself and its actions, not the right to support Israel as a state.

If you are specifically targeting those who support Israel, you are targeting the vast majority of Jews. And you are targeting them because their opinion is to support Israel, thereby removing Jewish agency. (ie. stop supporting Israel, or I will target you.)
 
owlo said:
Because it's the same as calling muslims islamic extremist terrorists, because islamic extremist terrorists are part of Islam? If I constantly pushed discourse that Muslim = terrorist, many people would understandably be unhappy.

A tiny fringe doesn't define a movement or body. In no way is Zionism represented the way you're trying to represent it, any more than Islam is represented by Islamic Extremists.
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No it's not. If I tell you that xenophobism is part of french electorate, I'm not telling you that french are xenophobic. And if you answer to me that in the 21st centory xenophobia isn't part of the french electorate, you are full of shit because those ideologies are literally represented in the electorate and parliament.

Now I will ask you to tell me what are Otzma Yehudit, a large part of Likud or RZP? Are they far right, aggressive movements and are they in the 21st century?
 
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