Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
This conflict didn’t start on October 7th.
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Trouble is, Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, so their actions will be viewed as those of a paramilitary organization (subsidized by Iran no less) and not as a part of the broader Israeli Palestinian issue.
 
nimic said:
Genocide is a broader term than just "kill all of them". If the ultimate goal of Israel is to gradually force the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, then that would be genocide.
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That's a fair point. Let's see how this plays out. If it plays out like that then there's an argument for that term. My own view is that they have no appetite to occupy Gaza, despite the ravings of some far right politicians.
 
Raoul said:
Trouble is, Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, so their actions will be viewed as those of a paramilitary organization (subsidized by Iran no less) and not as a part of the broader Israeli Palestinian issue.
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Hamas is inherently an organisation borne out of Israel’s own brutality and subjugation of the native population. So whilst they don’t represent all Palestinians, Israel only has itself to blame for the antagonism from Hamas over the last 30 years. Referencing Oct 7th again and again doesn’t change that. The UN Sec Gen got it spot on when he said it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
 
Drizzle said:
Many seem to genuinely think that the IDF is trying to kill as many Gazans as possible. It's obviously not otherwise a million would be dead by now. Surely that's just blindingly obvious.

What they're doing is brutal and bad enough, but the hyperbole and genocide talk is way off.
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What a dumb post. They’ve already killed 3,000 children and 2,000 women. Is that all collateral in your eyes?
 
The Corinthian said:
Hamas is inherently an organisation borne out of Israel’s own brutality and subjugation of the native population. So whilst they don’t represent all Palestinians, Israel only has itself to blame for the antagonism from Hamas over the last 30 years. Referencing Oct 7th again and again doesn’t change that. The UN Sec Gen got it spot on when he said it didn’t happen in a vacuum.
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This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.
 
Raoul said:
This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.
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If they view it as a matter of existential survival - why are they killing Palestinians in the West Bank (over 60 since Oct 7th I believe), and why are they breaking international law by building illegal settlements there?

I think you know deep down, and I’d encourage you to be intellectually honest with yourself and myself, that this isn’t and hasn’t been solely about Hamas. Israel wants the land for themselves in its entirety.
 
Drizzle said:
That's a fair point. Let's see how this plays out. If it plays out like that then there's an argument for that term. My own view is that they have no appetite to occupy Gaza, despite the ravings of some far right politicians.
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They will almost certainly have to occupy it in some form for a while or else risk another militant group taking over yet again.
 
The Corinthian said:
If they view it as a matter of existential survival - why are they killing Palestinians in the West Bank (over 60 since Oct 7th I believe), and why are they breaking international law by building illegal settlements there?

I think you know deep down, and I’d encourage you to be intellectually honest with yourself and myself, that this isn’t and hasn’t been solely about Hamas. Israel wants the land for themselves in its entirety.
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I don’t think they want the land for themselves. They do however now realize that pulling out 18 years ago was a calamitous mistake, since it allowed Hamas to set up shop and lead us to where we are in the present.
 
Raoul said:
I don’t think they want the land for themselves. They do however now realize that pulling out 18 years ago was a calamitous mistake, since it allowed Hamas to set up shop and lead us to where we are in the present.
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So tell me - why are Israelis killing Palestinians in the West Bank?

Why have they been building illegal settlements in the Wedt Bank for decades which is indirect contravention of international law?
 
The Corinthian said:
So tell me - why are Israelis killing Palestinians in the West Bank?

Why have they been building illegal settlements in the Wedt Bank for decades which is indirect contravention of international law?
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Yes, they shouldn’t be doing any of that. That doesn’t however justify Hamas’ attack, especially given they don’t represent Palestinians as a whole, particularly those in the West Bank.
 
Raoul said:
This is implicit in any war, particularly in those with a lopsided power differential where the weaker side initiates the fighting. All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .
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If only the slaves knew their place and didn't attack us, we wouldn't have massacred them and their family.
 
Raoul said:
Yes, they shouldn’t be doing any of that. That doesn’t however justify Hamas’ attack, especially given they don’t represent Palestinians as a whole, particularly those in the West Bank.
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I’m not asking if they should or shouldn’t be doing it. I’m asking why are they doing it. In your opinion, what’s the reason for killing Palestinians and building illegal settlements?
 
2cents said:
First example that comes to mind is Hama in 1982. Syrian forces killed around 10,000-20,000 residents of the city after blockading it off for a month, laying waste to the entire old city with air strikes, and sending troops in to root out the Muslim Brotherhood militants who had effectively seized control, along with anyone suspected of aiding them. The operation brought an end to around six years of relatively low-level insurgency, and Syria barely heard a peep from Islamist militants for the next thirty years.

However the scale was considerably smaller than Gaza today.
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Thanks for intervening and making me reconsider, once again.

That was under Hafez Al Assad's regime, if my memory serves me right and he wasn't exactly the kind of man who'd care for human rights or rules of engagement.

It still left terrible scars and ultimately blew back, massively, thirty years later. And that's exactly what's going to happen in Gaza or the West bank in 5, 10 or 20 years if nothing changes.
 
The Corinthian said:
I’m not asking if they should or shouldn’t be doing it. I’m asking why are they doing it. In your opinion, what’s the reason for killing Palestinians and building illegal settlements?
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It’s a cynical policy by the Israeli government (allowing it to happen that is) that is probably driven by Netanyahu’s divide and conquer approach to making sure a two state solution never happens. It’s not far off from the other thing he gets routinely criticized for, which is playing the schism between Hamas and Fatah off one another. His presence as PM is one of the main reasons the process has been in reverse for a couple of decades. None of this of course absolves Hamas for behaving like 13th century barbarians three weeks ago.
 
Raoul said:
This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.
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No it wasn't. It was created by Israel to counter the PA and PLO because peace was looking likely.

Let's not beat around the bush, there is enough quotes from IDF military men etc who have confirmed the backing of Hamas from its inception.
 
Raoul said:
This is implicit in any war, particularly in those with a lopsided power differential where the weaker side initiates the fighting. All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .
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This is getting stupid now. Enough people have condemned Hamas actions and still feel Israel is wrong now.

This whole oh but 10.7 is getting pathetic

If Balfour hadn't signed his treaty Hamas wouldn't exist and thousands of Arabs and Jews would be alive
 
Raoul said:
The Israelis are now operating out of an existential trauma driven by a mindset that they cannot exist as a nation whilst bordered by an organization that exists for the sole purpose of annihilating them. Public opinion in various other countries won’t count for much if the Israelis believe their very existence is on the line.
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This is just random pop psychology. It's not an actual argument or explanation of anything. You know that, right?
 
Raoul said:
All of which was preventable a mere three weeks ago. The Israelis are now operating out of an existential trauma driven by a mindset that they cannot exist as a nation whilst bordered by an organization that exists for the sole purpose of annihilating them. Public opinion in various other countries won’t count for much if the Israelis believe their very existence is on the line.
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I have a great deal of respect for your contributions in this thread but I'm having a hard time with this constant position of yours tracking back the origins of this conflict to 7/10. It's not, and you know it.

Is Hamas a terrorist islamist organization which (un)declared ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel? Absolutely.

Is massacring and kidnapping civilians in any way justifiable or can be put under the legitimate "armed resistance against the occupation" umbrella (which is a fundamental right by the way)? That's a resounding no from me.

Can Hamas destroy Israel in its current form and shape? Absolutely not. In fact, they survived this long in Gaza because Israel allowed, encouraged and even indirectly financed it. They can hurt them and they showed it on 7/10. But destroy Israel? Yeah, no.

International public opinion will matter in the long run. As fecked up as the world is, it's still 2023. If you claim to be of the "people of light", you can't just go on a rampage without other "people of light" jumping in and tell you to back off. Then later tell you to get your house in order. There are major consequences involving pretty much the entire world if this gets out of hands. You also can't claim to be on the side of civilization and take the moral high ground, when it flies out the window with your daily dealings with a population on a territory you're militarily occupying and colonizing for more than 50 years.
 
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Roane said:
This is getting stupid now. Enough people have condemned Hamas actions and still feel Israel is wrong now.

This whole oh but 10.7 is getting pathetic

If Balfour hadn't signed his treaty Hamas wouldn't exist and thousands of Arabs and Jews would be alive
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While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack. To claim Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression is simply tantamount to justifying a terrorist attack. It didn’t work post 9/11 and it won’t work now.
 
Raoul said:
While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack.
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Israel have done most of these things before the 10.7 attack.
 
Drizzle said:
I don't know you nor do you know me. We can only judge each other by our posts on here. And forgive me if I wasn't impressed by you calling decent posters here (who may have a different take than you) such as owlo 'cowards'. And you call my post ill-faithed?

Anyway, I thought,hey this chap is extremely upset about the events and the tragic and unnecessary loss of life. Presumably he'll also have been devastated by the brutal massacres on 7th October. I was amazed to find nothing of the sort. And you only started wading in when Israel responded. Strange.
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Let's use this logic of yours.

You're this thread's watchdog. However, you'll only bite and snarl at people who criticize Israel, you'll not say a word to anyone else. We've had some pretty horrific comments in this thread, and it seems that you approve of all of them as long as they target Palestinians or Muslims. We can, after all, only judge each other by or posts or what we choose not to post.
 
marktan said:
People say Hamas wants to wipe out Israel - but if you really want to know what Israel wants to do, go back to Ben Gurion said.
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There have been a million pronouncements on this issue since then, and a million fundamental changes in circumstance, but you're telling me this is the real plan behind everything.
 
Raoul said:
While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack. To claim Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression is simply tantamount to justifying a terrorist attack. It didn’t work post 9/11 and it won’t work now.
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You're inventing things now.

No one said Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression. They condemned Hamas.

They are now condemning Israel's response. You and 1 or 2 others are justifying the response.

Israel killed children and reporters before 10.7

My Balfour point was to show that we can condemn Balfour and still condemn Hamas. So why is it difficult for likes of you to do the same?
 
Drizzle said:
There have been a million pronouncements on this issue since then, and a million fundamental changes in circumstance, but you're telling me this is the real plan behind everything.
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Some of the changes haven't changed.

Some of the statements have been the same over the years.

Netanyahu still spouts what his dad did. His party still spout statements from 1915 onwards
 
Raoul said:
It’s a cynical policy by the Israeli government (allowing it to happen that is) that is probably driven by Netanyahu’s divide and conquer approach to making sure a two state solution never happens. It’s not far off from the other thing he gets routinely criticized for, which is playing the schism between Hamas and Fatah off one another. His presence as PM is one of the main reasons the process has been in reverse for a couple of decades. None of this of course absolves Hamas for behaving like 13th century barbarians three weeks ago.
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Again with the crowbarring of Hamas and Oct 7th. I’m asking you about the acts of settlers in the West Bank.

If you think their actions are to prevent a two state solution, then what does that tell you about the Israeli government? Because any delay to resolving the status quo will only result in more and more land in the West Bank being gobbled up by thieving settlers and more and more killings in the WB (and Gaza which seems to happen on an annual basis).

This coupled with the no right of return to Palestinians in the WB means that any Palestinian who would leave out of fear of their safety has no home to come back to and it’s most likely taken by a settler.

So, again, I don’t think you’re being intellectually honest with yourself or myself in this conversation. You will know full well that any delay to 2 state solution discussions will just result in more Palestinians dead and more space in the WB taken by settlers. Do you disagree?
 
Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses
 
NotThatSoph said:
Let's use this logic of yours.

You're this thread's watchdog. However, you'll only bite and snarl at people who criticize Israel, you'll not say a word to anyone else. We've had some pretty horrific comments in this thread, and it seems that you approve of all of them as long as they target Palestinians or Muslims. We can, after all, only judge each other by or posts or what we choose not to post.
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Ah yes, you accused me of policing this thread, but here you are doing the very same. Welcome.

If you're saying that I agree with some things and not with others, then guilty as charged I guess. My lens is different to some others, no apologies there.

If you're accusing just me of 'biting and snarling', then I'd say you're the one who is picking and choosing which side to take and which horrific comments to ignore, because there have been plenty of them.
 
Roane said:
Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses
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American special forces? So the US has boots on the ground?
 
marktan said:
I mean does Israel deserve credit for 'only' killing 7000 people? Only if you have no idea what's going on.

Their goal is clearly to lay waste to the northern half of Gaza, and then have their army go in and occupy it. Wadi Gaza will be a nice natural barrier between the two sides. But their ultimate aim is to make life so unlivable in the south (hence the blockade, the continued bombings) that the only option becomes for the Gazans to be moved into the Sinai. It won't happen immediately, but you've heard enough rumblings from various Israeli politicians to know it's what they want.

If Israel had killed 20,000 Gazans right off the bat you think they'd be allowed to continue with their current plan? You think they really give one crap about the actual life of a Palestinian? No, they need to minimise the losses to serve their own aims.

Sisi is playing hardball in public but ultimately he is a US puppet, Israel has the ear of the US and the US can easily behind the scenes force Sisi to do what they want, be that via financial threats (why else has Egypt gotten so much financial aid from the US) or military. Is it any surprise to anyone that Morsi, who wanted to open up the southern border for Gaza, was deposed so quickly? Mubarak and Sisi were both incredibly happy to keep the Rafah crossing closed both during Cast lead in 2009 and now during this month. Why? Anyone with half a brain knows why. They've been told to do so.

It's why it baffles me so many take the Israeli public stated aim of 'wiping out Hamas' at face value - anyone with more than one actual functioning brain cell knows that it's Impossible. You can't identify all the ones that aren't fighting, and you can't stop new ones from the relatives of all the dead from joining. Israeli, US politicians know this, and yet so many of the public lap it up. Why? Because most people are morons who lack critical thinking skills or know but are intentionally being obtuse. People say Hamas wants to wipe out Israel - but if you really want to know what Israel wants to do, go back to Ben Gurion said.

In a letter to his son in October 1937, Ben-Gurion explained that partition would be a first step to "possession of the land as a whole". The same sentiment, that acceptance of partition was a temporary measure beyond which the Palestine would be "redeemed . . in its entirety," was recorded by Ben-Gurion on other occasions, such as at a meeting of the Jewish Agency executive in June 1938, as well as by Chaim Weizmann.

David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, said about Gaza before the 1956 Suez campaign: “If I believed in miracles, I’d wish for it to be swallowed up by the sea.”

“There is no solution. We want Palestine to be ours as a nation. The Arabs want it to be theirs — as a nation. I don’t know what Arab would agree to Palestine belonging to the Jews".
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If the entire Israel's plan is to force Gazas to leave to Egypt, how does Sisi blocking them help the Israel?
 
Roane said:
Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses
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I saw that interview. Seems like a load of bollocks though.
 
The Corinthian said:
American special forces? So the US has boots on the ground?
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That's the tweet and name. I have no idea of it's true or whether the guy, Jamal Rayan, is reliable etc. Twitter isn't my thing.

I put it up to see if anyone could shed more light on it.

Not sur what constitutes boots on the ground anymore tbh. We know America sent some military personnel to offer advice on a ground offensive
 
the_cliff said:
I saw that interview. Seems like a load of bollocks though.
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Yeah I wasn't posting a statement of fact or anything. Just something that was sent on a group I'm in. So I put it in here knowing some will shed more light on it
 
Roane said:
Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses
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Link?

I’d be surprised if 1SFOD-D went boots dry trying to rescue hostages while there was a bombing campaign ongoing. Sending in HRT would also be foolish.

But who knows?
 
Roane said:
This is getting stupid now. Enough people have condemned Hamas actions and still feel Israel is wrong now.

This whole oh but 10.7 is getting pathetic

If Balfour hadn't signed his treaty Hamas wouldn't exist and thousands of Arabs and Jews would be alive
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You can't roll back the years and there's no point dwelling on it. What's done is done.

The most important thing now is to think about a solution that would stop the madness and allow both peoples there to live in peace.
 
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That_Bloke said:
You can't roll back the years and there's no point dwelling on it. What's done is done.

The most important thing now is to think about a solution that would stop the madness and allow both peoples there live in peace.
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I think maybe the point of my comments was missed.

However the issue is to stop this senseless killing that is going on. No excuses. No but Hamas... No but Balfour... No but west Bank...

However to point to one then you point to all. And not decide the date that suits your narrative
 
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