Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Duafc]

So the indiscriminate bombing by the Israeli government causes or justifies the massacre of jews around the world. Noted.

One is literally happening now, the other is a future you have decided is going to happen, as to relevancy it's not much of a contest.

 

[JagUTD]

So to be clear, it's nonsense to suggest the ongoing rise in Antisemitism worldwide will result in massacres of Jews but it's perfectly fine to repeatedly claim that Israel is enacting a Genocide in Gaza?

 

[Halftrack]

You shouldn't be amazed. Nobody seems to be willing to do the hard work of calling out the racist imbeciles on their own team.

Who are the racist imbeciles we're failing to call out? And who have you called out?

 

[africanspur]

You shouldn't be amazed. Nobody seems to be willing to do the hard work of calling out the racist imbeciles on their own team.

I really don't think I can roll my eyes the amount I want to at at this comment.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

So the indiscriminate bombing by the Israeli government causes or justifies the massacre of jews around the world. Noted.

You should not complain about "extreme rhetoric" in one post, and then immediately follow it up with extreme rhetoric of your own.

 

[Drizzle]

One is literally happening now, the other is a future you have decided is going to happen, as to relevancy it's not much of a contest.

That doesn't even make sense. But anyway, we'll see if my grim prediction comes to pass, I pray it doesn't. But the ridiculously violent and simplistic discourse is leading up to it. It's fine if you disagree, like I say, I hope you're right.

 

[Halftrack]

So to be clear, it's nonsense to suggest the ongoing rise in Antisemitism worldwide will result in massacres of Jews but it's perfectly fine to repeatedly claim that Israel is enacting a Genocide in Gaza?

Bemoaning hypothetical massacres of Jews while a massacre of a captive population is carried out by Israel is fecking imbecillic.

 

[africanspur]

Yes, I thought the point about mirroring Ben Gvir’s language might be made. I think most of us would agree that was also totally unacceptable though.

Thank you for posting this, and also for considered post a few pages back on your view of Israel’s place and its borders (as someone who has been lurking). We don’t agree on everything but it’s that kind of tone that raises the thread.

I think most of us would though, just as there are some posters who can only see things from the Palestinian side, there are posters on here who are the same for the Israeli side.

I'm still waiting on the response from the poster who thought it was genocidal for someone to say from river to the sea at a Pro-Palestine but seems to not even be aware of people like Ben Gvir, Smotrich or indeed even Netanyahu and their views. An interesting dynamic for sure.

And no worries, I hope that my posts never come across as offensive and I've never been that interested in trying to make pointless platitudes or amplify the fringe views on either side to try to make a point. I do think there is far more awareness of the extreme Palestinian views than the extreme Israeli ones though, which I don't think leads to an adequate analysis of the situation.

 

[Drizzle]

You should not complain about "extreme rhetoric" in one post, and then immediately follow it up with extreme rhetoric of your own.

My 'extreme rhetoric' is not demonising a group of people. I'm predicting disaster. There's a big difference.

 

[Halftrack]

I don't get how people can be focusing on Israel slaughtering civilians en masse when they should be worrying about all these hypothetical future massacres of Jews that I've made up.

Says it all, really.

 

[Mike Smalling]

I don't get how people can be focusing on Israel slaughtering civilians en masse when they should be worrying about all these hypothetical future massacres of Jews that I've made up.

Says it all, really.

Watch it. That's the kind of post that could very well lead to the imaginary slaughter of Jews.

 

[Ødegaard]

When you consider the terror being perpertrated in the west bank by the jewish settlers, to me the Jews are like animals, especially in the West Bank. The jewish settlers aren’t educated towards peace, nor do they want it. There is no such thing as a jewish homeland. The PA needs arming and should wipe out the settlements, not leave it to the people. The Palestinians right to walk through the streets of the West Bank is much more important than Jews right to movement and travel – this is the reality. This is the truth. A palestinians right to life outweighs any jews right to move on the streets.

This is eerily similar to Ben Gvir's disgusting views, just from a pro-palestina side.
Calling any group of humans animals is horribly dehumanizing and a recipe for escalation.

Edit: as i am waking up, something tells me this could be satire? It is so close.

 

[JagUTD]

Bemoaning hypothetical massacres of Jews while a massacre of a captive population is carried out by Israel is fecking imbecillic.

Hypothetical massacre of Jews seems an odd choice of words given the, you know, actual massacre of Jews that took place 2 weeks ago.

And the term relating to Gaza is quite often genocide. Which I believe is used hypothetically...

 

[Drizzle]

Bemoaning hypothetical massacres of Jews while a massacre of a captive population is carried out by Israel is fecking imbecillic.

Alright people, I get it. You can stop piling on now. I'm sorry for being worried about what's happening and the attacks on jews around the world for the crimes of the Israeli government. I know there won't be massacres, can't believe anyone could think that sort of thing could happen, in retrospect.

My worry about this of course does not also prevent me being appalled at what is also happening in Gaza by the way. I get it - that's a real thing, and there's me worrying about some future that may not happen.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

My 'extreme rhetoric' is not demonising a group of people. I'm predicting disaster. There's a big difference.

Your extreme rhetoric was completely and wholly making up that I claimed or implied "massacres of Jews were justified".

 

[Duafc]

That doesn't even make sense. But anyway, we'll see if my grim prediction comes to pass, I pray it doesn't. But the ridiculously violent and simplistic discourse is leading up to it. It's fine if you disagree, like I say, I hope you're right.

Of course it makes sense, and in the last page or two your discourse is every part as simplistic as anyone else

I don't disagree that anti-Semitism will be on the rise globally, people who already have those views will be emboldened and there will likely also be converts who cant distinguish between the Israeli Govt, or individual Israeli actors/voices and Jewish people generally or are won over by anti-jewish propaganda.

However you are now placing more importance on the possible future crime of Jews being attacked than the completely real and current slaughter of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza, WB and beyond - the vast, vast, vast majority of whom 'deserve' it no more than any Jewish person should experience anti-Semitism or violence as a result of this conflict and no more than the poor victims on Oct 7th.

All this shows is that you are clearly to close to it, too impacted and not in any way thinking objectively - quite understandable and human but not helpful and certainly not worth doubling down over, that's a race to the bottom.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Hypothetical massacre of Jews seems an odd choice of words given the, you know, actual massacre of Jews that took place 2 weeks ago.

And the term relating to Gaza is quite often genocide. Which I believe is used hypothetically...

Well, that poster was talking about future massacres of Jews "around the world", meaning outside of Israel, which are thankfully still fully hypothetical. So seems like a very appropriate choice of words to me.

 

[Drizzle]

Of course it makes sense, and in the last page or two your discourse is every part as simplistic as anyone else

I don't disagree that anti-Semitism will be on the rise globally, people who already have those views will be emboldened and there will likely also be converts who cant distinguish between the Israeli Govt, or individual Israeli actors/voices and Jewish people generally or are won over by anti-jewish propaganda.

However you are now placing more importance on the possible future crime of Jews being attacked than the completely real and current slaughter of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza, WB and beyond - the vast, vast, vast majority of whom 'deserve' it no more than any Jewish person should experience anti-Semitism or violence as a result of this conflict and no more than the poor victims on Oct 7th.

All this shows is that you are clearly to close to it, too impacted and not in any way thinking objectively - quite understandable and human but not helpful and certainly not worth doubling down over, that's a race to the bottom.

I appreciate this response. Your last paragraph is interesting and worth me reflecting on.

I do want to make it clear that I'm not placing more importance on this than Gazan lives. I've been clear about this in several previous posts, and my stance, for what it's worth, is resolutely against these current Israeli actions.

It's legitimate to raise alternative strands of this without being accused of minimising other issues, so I haven't appreciated being shouted down on this (not that you have).

 

[Agent Red]

I think most of us would though, just as there are some posters who can only see things from the Palestinian side, there are posters on here who are the same for the Israeli side.

I'm still waiting on the response from the poster who thought it was genocidal for someone to say from river to the sea at a Pro-Palestine but seems to not even be aware of people like Ben Gvir, Smotrich or indeed even Netanyahu and their views. An interesting dynamic for sure.

And no worries, I hope that my posts never come across as offensive and I've never been that interested in trying to make pointless platitudes or amplify the fringe views on either side to try to make a point. I do think there is far more awareness of the extreme Palestinian views than the extreme Israeli ones though, which I don't think leads to an adequate analysis of the situation.

This hasn’t been my experience, but I guess it depends who you talk to and what you read. I think it’s difficult to assess where any imbalance in coverage or awareness lies as well when there’s such a contrast between the position of western governments vs. the views of large parts of the population and therefore the content you see on social media, hear in social circles etc. I think lots of people are feeling isolated and helpless by one or the other.

Anyway, I’m going to slip back to lurking as the doom scrolling has been messing up my head the last 2 weeks and I don’t think me posting on the caf is going to help anyone.

 

[Duafc]

I appreciate this response. Your last paragraph is interesting and worth me reflecting on.

I do want to make it clear that I'm not placing more importance on this than Gazan lives. I've been clear about this in several previous posts, and my stance, for what it's worth, is resolutely against these current Israeli actions.

It's legitimate to raise alternative strands of this without being accused of minimising other issues, so I haven't appreciated being shouted down on this (not that you have).

Totally, it's extremely difficult to do it, feels like every post needs a lengthy disclaimer before the 2 lines of a new point you want to make.

 

[JagUTD]

Well, that poster was talking about future massacres of Jews "around the world", meaning outside of Israel, which are thankfully still fully hypothetical. So seems like a very appropriate choice of words to me.

Thankfully yes. However I don't really think its something that should be dismissed so flippantly when you consider where dangerous rhetoric has led us before, many times.

Its not as if several politicians haven't also made the same point, or numeorus Jewish people around the world. There not shutting schools or keeping businesses closed for a laugh, there's a genuine fear, supported by advice from the authorities concerned for their safety.

So yeh, belittling the poster over it was at best, unfair.

 

[The Firestarter]

I’m amazed it’s your post that has attracted the ire when there’s another one that’s been up for 20 minutes calling Jews animals and calling for the PA to be armed so that it can “wipe out” the settlements. And I say that as someone who is anti settlement and would have no objection to them being deconstructed/handed back to Palestinians but that kind of language isn’t at all helpful.

This. Pretty sickening actually. That poster is banned now but how the non reactions to it were rather telling.

 

[JagUTD]

You can understand the fear and desperation the Palestinian people in Gaza feel while also understanding why Jewish people are also worried, or why people may be worried for them

It's not one or the other. You don't need to counter every tragedy in one side with a tragedy the other side suffered. Some posters definitely need to think about that when there first thought is to immediately reference the other sides suffering.

 

[africanspur]

When you consider the terror being perpertrated in the west bank by the jewish settlers, to me the Jews are like animals, especially in the West Bank. The jewish settlers aren’t educated towards peace, nor do they want it. There is no such thing as a jewish homeland. The PA needs arming and should wipe out the settlements, not leave it to the people. The Palestinians right to walk through the streets of the West Bank is much more important than Jews right to movement and travel – this is the reality. This is the truth. A palestinians right to life outweighs any jews right to move on the streets.

As I said to Agent red, while I get that you're trying to highlight Ben Gvir's comments, this is a really deeply unpleasant post, especially as it wasn't immediately obvious to me (and will be even less obvious to others who don't follow this conflict as much as I do) until I'd read your post below it.

It honestly made me feel quite sick reading it in real time and, even in the context of trying to bring to light his comments (which also make me feel physically sick), I think the best thing would be to just delete both posts and perhaps think a little bit about how your posts are going to come across before posting them.

Edit: Its also the fact that it comes completely out of the blue and without any context. If it had come within the context of a conversation about the settlers or Ben Gvir specifically, with a poster downplaying their comments, it would at least have made more sense.

 

[Tarrou]

When you consider the terror being perpertrated in the west bank by the jewish settlers, to me the Jews are like animals, especially in the West Bank. The jewish settlers aren’t educated towards peace, nor do they want it. There is no such thing as a jewish homeland. The PA needs arming and should wipe out the settlements, not leave it to the people. The Palestinians right to walk through the streets of the West Bank is much more important than Jews right to movement and travel – this is the reality. This is the truth. A palestinians right to life outweighs any jews right to move on the streets.

if we had a "not sure if parody, but I fecking hope so" thread this should go in there

 

[The Firestarter]

if we had a "not sure if parody, but I fecking hope so" thread this should go in there

Sarcasm in this thread is best avoided.

 

[nimic]

As I said to Agent red, while I get that you're trying to highlight Ben Gvir's comments, this is a really deeply unpleasant post, especially as it wasn't immediately obvious to me (and will be even less obvious to others who don't follow this conflict as much as I do) until I'd read your post below it.

It honestly made me feel quite sick reading it in real time and, even in the context of trying to bring to light his comments (which also make me feel physically sick), I think the best thing would be to just delete both posts and perhaps think a little bit about how your posts are going to come across before posting them.

Edit: Its also the fact that it comes completely out of the blue and without any context. If it had come within the context of a conversation about the settlers or Ben Gvir specifically, with a poster downplaying their comments, it would at least have made more sense.

Yes, it was a massive case of bad decision making.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[Mike Smalling]

Thankfully yes. However I don't really think its something that should be dismissed so flippantly when you consider where dangerous rhetoric has led us before, many times.

Its not as if several politicians haven't also made the same point, or numeorus Jewish people around the world. There not shutting schools or keeping businesses closed for a laugh, there's a genuine fear, supported by advice from the authorities concerned for their safety.

So yeh, belittling the poster over it was at best, unfair.

I'm not sure anyone are flippantly dismissing the hateful rhetoric against Jews, or the increase in hate crimes against them. But the posters suggestion that downright massacres are basically inevitable is also not helpful. He then followed up by accusing someone of justifying the imaginery massacre, because someone simply suggested that the hateful rhetoric is fueled by the actions of the Israeli government - it hasn't increased out of nowhere.

So, while a poster should not be belittled, I also don't think a bit of pushback is out of order, when someone is making up future massacres as certainties, and arguing in bad faith.

 

[space]

May Palestine be free

 

[tomaldinho1]

If this is true then this delay is not really a good thing for anyone. They're just getting ready for more war.

As an honest question, what is your take on that tweet? The author of the piece and what they might be trying to portray?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[tomaldinho1]

That's the whole point though, isn't it. If US wanted to they could change the situation, hold Israel to account, withhold military etc to the point where they're either forced to sit at the negotiating table with the Palestinians or for Israel to just sever ties with the US.

You're right though - because of anaemic US leadership.

But you could levy this charge at any large country - if Russia wanted to they could pull out of Ukraine, if China wanted to they could stop x,y or z border incursion. I think we have to unfortunately be somewhat realistic in expectations for all these countries and what they can and will do, if you are genuinely just arguing that the US could put a stop to Israel's attacks on Gaza, I don't think they actually could, there was always going to be some kind of reaction from Israel and you can just look back through history to see this happening time and time again.

Let's look at this objectively, what is the US doing that is somewhat unexpected? Biden on record talking about a two state solution is very big news, he's also spoken about Palestine as a state, there is also clear evidence of at least some positive influence on restraining Israel. As much as you look at the situation and, rightly, might think that is not 'enough' we should also have the ability to process the fact that it is something tangible. The ideal realistic, and that is the key word here, is Israel can be influenced to pause the ground invasion completely, the border clashes calm down and then countries come together and work out a way they can slowly weaken and eventually destroy Hamas. Palestine minus Hamas is well placed to have a bright future but it will take a lot of time and trust from all sides.

 

[africanspur]

Superb thread but a brutal and sad read as well.

Something I was thinking of in terms of Netanyahu and his warlike rhetoric, as well as how long he's been in power....I don't think he's ever gone to war has he? He's always found a way to avoid it.

He is in unchartered territory here and isn't exactly doing a great job so far, considering he seems to be refusing to meet families of hostages/ has allies briefing against the IDF already?

 

[Sky1981]

As an honest question, what is your take on that tweet? The author of the piece and what they might be trying to portray?

My take is that someone in the US Army feels different towards the whole thing and decided to blew the whistle

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

As an honest question, what is your take on that tweet? The author of the piece and what they might be trying to portray?

I think Biden's administration understood they had to 'shift' in order to accommodate various political groups. I don't know if they're trying to achieve that by doing PR or by taking meaningful action yet. I think it's going to take a while to truly settle that.

 

[The Corinthian]

Thread here has been moving too fast, but I don't think I've seen anything here.

I haven't seen anything here - it's just a vague accusation pro-Israeli posters like to make because it's an easy deflection, shuts down conversation and gives them a get-out from discussing the real issue.

I said it in a previous post, but aimlessly labelling everything as anti-semitic gives such a disservice to those who are genuinely facing anti-semitism. I've seen posters here labelling anti-Zionist Jews as anti-semitic(!) which is bonkers, then you read the news and see how synagogues are being defaced, the France incident you mention etc. Actual Jewish people facing prejudice.

My mother is a journalist who covers Muslim issues in Mumbai/India, and so is in many whatsapp chats. According to her, some moderate people who have not said a word about Israel or Palestine or Judaism before, are now semi-justifying the Holocaust - "he killed them as a last resort" (what was his first resort? why did he need a "resort" in the first place??). Wouldn't be surprised if it was more widespread.

It is ugly. There has been a killing in the US and in France (on opposite sides). Because of who I follow on twitter, I occasionally see some of the worst Israeli takes too, mocking people as their families die, etc. It is natural that the most hateful type of bigotry will be spreading now.

I can't imagine she's short of work covering Muslim issues in that part of the world...!

 

[Drizzle]

I'm not sure anyone are flippantly dismissing the hateful rhetoric against Jews, or the increase in hate crimes against them. But the posters suggestion that downright massacres are basically inevitable is also not helpful. He then followed up by accusing someone of justifying the imaginery massacre, because someone simply suggested that the hateful rhetoric is fueled by the actions of the Israeli government - it hasn't increased out of nowhere.

So, while a poster should not be belittled, I also don't think a bit of pushback is out of order, when someone is making up future massacres as certainties, and arguing in bad faith.

Sorry it's not helpful in predicting massacres. It's just a prediction.
But to wave it away as if it's not an obviously growing possibility is just as unhelpful.

You're accusing others of arguing in bad faith by the way, and that is simply not true. The actual response to my post suggested that it would be the Israeli bombing rather than the rhetoric around it that would cause rising antisemitism. I disagree. It's extremist and violent rhetoric that means any justifiable anger at Israel gets targeted at innocent jews. If there's a racist attack on anybody, blame the attackers.

 

[The Corinthian]

It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.

This is just a pathetic post.

I mean, rather than make up fictional scenarios in the head, you can actually watch in real time a massacre of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis right now.

Also this type of fear-mongering and idiotic ruminating about hypotheticals is genuinely bonkers. SS was right - log off.

 

[Ødegaard]

Superb thread but a brutal and sad read as well.

Something I was thinking of in terms of Netanyahu and his warlike rhetoric, as well as how long he's been in power....I don't think he's ever gone to war has he? He's always found a way to avoid it.

He is in unchartered territory here and isn't exactly doing a great job so far, considering he seems to be refusing to meet families of hostages/ has allies briefing against the IDF already?

Fairly sure he met some at the very least, but that was after his approval rate plummeted.
Based on my memory though, so far from trustworthy.