Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

E-mal said:
In order to avoid this to and fro dance of the death, loyalty does not equate to supporting genocide and it must be strategic. Alienating itself from the Arab and Muslim world is not strategic especially with the understanding that it depends on this countries for its oil and gas. But not worry, it will fabricate another weapons of mass destruction to invade this countries when the oil and gas stop coming.
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You really are living on a different planet with shite like this
 
E-mal said:
What shite exactly? how about you post your pile of shite and worry less about my own shite. At least my own shite is backed with facts from history
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The bolded part. That America would invade another country for oil. It has been 20 years and this is still parroted ad nauseum. The bot masters need to get more creative.
 
Raoul said:
Former Hamas member and son of one of its founders.

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What a story this guy has. I knew he had converted to Christianity but not that he had been a spy.
I imagine there will be a good price on his head.
After watching the video I read another interview in which he said "Allah had given us the responsibility to eradicate the Jews, and my father didn't question it, even though he personally had nothing against them".
But how do they handle that when they study the Koran. I mean, is the support of Muslim countries to Palestine out of regional solidarity or because whatever the Jews do the Koran states that they must be eradicated (if it says it literally, which I don't know).
 
carvajal said:
What a story this guy has. I knew he had converted to Christianity but not that he had been a spy.
I imagine there will be a good price on his head.
After watching the video I read another interview in which he said "Allah had given us the responsibility to eradicate the Jews, and my father didn't question it, even though he personally had nothing against them".
But how do they handle that when they study the Koran. I mean, is the support of Muslim countries to Palestine out of regional solidarity or because whatever the Jews do the Koran states that they must be eradicated (if it says it literally, which I don't know).
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Yeah he has some pretty good insight into Hamas tactics (albeit likely a bit dated). I believe his old man was arrested recently in the West Bank after the 7 Oct attacks.
 
E-mal said:
In order to avoid this to and fro dance of the death, loyalty does not equate to supporting genocide and it must be strategic. Alienating itself from the Arab and Muslim world is not strategic especially with the understanding that it depends on this countries for its oil and gas. But not worry, it will fabricate another weapons of mass destruction to invade this countries when the oil and gas stop coming.
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US is a net exporter of oil and gas. Shale revolution, baby.

That's why we don't care about the middle east anymore, no need for Saudi allies or carriers in the Straight of Hormuz, like in the old days.

Obviously we care a little, but it's not a strategic necessity to be able to protect power into that region for the US anymore.
 
Roane said:
A minority? It's a shrine recieving thousands of "pilgrims" a year.

The original monument was taken down and there is an epitaph now isn't there built by the IDF?
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As far as I know it's simply a grave that people visit. Nothing build by the IDF, that would be nuts.

And yes, thousands of idiots is a minority in a country that inhabits about ten million people.
 
VorZakone said:
Biden putting pressure on Israel with this tweet?

"We cannot give up on a two state solution."

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But the US are just as bad as Hamas! All western nations are to blame for October 7th! Israel is just a US puppet! And so forth.

Some of the views in this thread are genuinely remarkable. There's at least a couple posters spending their time digging through Twitter black holes to find the worst incident an IDF or settler has done to show, I assume, Hamas' actions are no different. They also believe Hamas is just a natural progression of the sitauaton. Israel is the only actual actor here. Sorry, Israel and the colonialist West. The indifference or outright hostility of the Muslim world towards the Gazans means nothing. Iran hating them, Egypt (who also owned Gaza for a stretch) abandoning them.

Ignoring the failures of leadership on both sides to actually settle on a two state solution. Ignoring the fact Israel has been attacked relentlessly for its entire history. Literally since day 1.

Personally I believe that the two state solution has to be the path forward, but that Hamas has done more to damage that future with their actions then anyone, possibly in the history of the turbulent region. Hamas has empowered the disgusting actions of Netanyahu. Without the October 7th attack, just about everyone in Gaza would be better off today, and better off in the medium term.

What these posters actually want is for Israel to not exist where it does. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

There are also those that seem to want to ignore that what Israel is doing is not morally wrong. It is morally wrong. And we should all be praying/hoping that some sense comes to those with the ability to reign in Netanyahu, who I hope will now be remembered as both a corrupt criminal and a war criminal.
 
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owlo said:
Im not watching any more videos from this conflict which include people unfortunately. I just can’t. It was radicalising my views and anger and making me less balanced and rational. Pictures are sad enough. But I definitely get the sentiment and you have to wonder what was going through her mind, 85 years old, must have thought she’ll never see peace or dignity for Palestinian people, nor safety for her own. Terrified for her husband yet resolute. Dignity off the charts, even if she goes home, vomits, and vows to vote to kill them all. Which she probably won’t, despite being perfectly entitled to. There’s not really fear at that age I suspect, only regret.
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That's understandable. I was going to say the contents are not even that bad but I guess that would likely be very different as an Israeli Jew.

It's just surreal because like you said, there seems to genuinely be no fear. I'm trying to get into her mental headspace. I imagine its like the Jewish version of Dr Izzeldin Abuelaish, of 'I shall not hate'. She's probably just incredibly sad because she knows what's already happening and what's almost certain to come, as well as sadness that there won't be peace & dignity for the Palestinians in her lifetime.

Either way, I'm glad she's out and hope her husband will be out soon too. Though I imagine if he does, his attempts to foster peace and engagement will no longer be possible after this is done.

Sharone Lifschitz says her family still has no news of her father, who was also taken captive.

"He was not with my mum, so my mum doesn't know where he is," she says.

"My father was getting more frail. Both of them are very loving people, family people. They really loved hosting the family and my father was very involved in political things in the kibbutz.

"He was very involved in rights for Palestinians and working towards peace with our neighbours."

She says he was dedicated to the belief that "we have to find a way to live together, he felt that it was very easy to find a way and was very disappointed and fought very hard against this idea of occupation, the idea of perpetual war".

"And I hope that he's there and he's being looked after and he's got the chance to talk.

"He speaks good Arabic so can communicate very well with the people there. He knows many people in Gaza. I want to think he's going to be OK.

"I know for my mum, she says they have been looked after and there was a doctor there so this brings a lot of comfort to everybody that there is some treatment."
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The Corinthian said:
I'd genuinely like to see a post in this thread since Oct 7 that is, in your view, anti-semitic. I'd certainly seen some anti-Arab, and possibly Islamophobic rhetoric, but I haven't seen anything that I'd say is anti-semitic. We had one poster that made some allusions to control of the media I think but I think he cleared up what he meant in a further post about the pro-Israeli lobby.
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Thread here has been moving too fast, but I don't think I've seen anything here.

My mother is a journalist who covers Muslim issues in Mumbai/India, and so is in many whatsapp chats. According to her, some moderate people who have not said a word about Israel or Palestine or Judaism before, are now semi-justifying the Holocaust - "he killed them as a last resort" (what was his first resort? why did he need a "resort" in the first place??). Wouldn't be surprised if it was more widespread.

It is ugly. There has been a killing in the US and in France (on opposite sides). Because of who I follow on twitter, I occasionally see some of the worst Israeli takes too, mocking people as their families die, etc. It is natural that the most hateful type of bigotry will be spreading now.
 
berbatrick said:
Thread here has been moving too fast, but I don't think I've seen anything here.

My mother is a journalist who covers Muslim issues in Mumbai/India, and so is in many whatsapp chats. According to her, some moderate people who have not said a word about Israel or Palestine or Judaism before, are now semi-justifying the Holocaust - "he killed them as a last resort" (what was his first resort? why did he need a "resort" in the first place??). Wouldn't be surprised if it was more widespread.

It is ugly. There has been a killing in the US and in France (on opposite sides). Because of who I follow on twitter, I occasionally see some of the worst Israeli takes too, mocking people as their families die, etc. It is natural that the most hateful type of bigotry will be spreading now.
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It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.
 
Beachryan said:
But the US are just as bad as Hamas! All western nations are to blame for October 7th! Israel is just a US puppet! And so forth.

Some of the views in this thread are genuinely remarkable. There's at least a couple posters spending their time digging through Twitter black holes to find the worst incident an IDF or settler has done to show, I assume, Hamas' actions are no different. They also believe Hamas is just a natural progression of the sitauaton. Israel is the only actual actor here. Sorry, Israel and the colonialist West. The indifference or outright hostility of the Muslim world towards the Gazans means nothing. Iran hating them, Egypt (who also owned Gaza for a stretch) abandoning them.

Ignoring the failures of leadership on both sides to actually settle on a two state solution. Ignoring the fact Israel has been attacked relentlessly for its entire history. Literally since day 1.

Personally I believe that the two state solution has to be the path forward, but that Hamas has done more to damage that future with their actions then anyone, possibly in the history of the turbulent region. Hamas has empowered the disgusting actions of Netanyahu. Without the October 7th attack, just about everyone in Gaza would be better off today, and better off in the medium term.

What these posters actually want is for Israel to not exist where it does. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

There are also those that seem to want to ignore that what Israel is doing is not morally wrong. It is morally wrong. And we should all be praying/hoping that some sense comes to those with the ability to reign in Netanyahu, who I hope will now be remembered as both a corrupt criminal and a war criminal.
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I've got just a couple of points about this.

Firstly, I think those posters actually are honest about it and have explicitly said so. One on this page or the previous page in fact. I've also been upfront about the fact that if I was a Palestinian in the 30s or 40s (or Arab if people prefer to say they don't exist), I most likely would have fought (and owlo has said likewise) and imagine most people would have, at the migration of a people who's ideology was to set up a state on the land you call your own and who's UN legitimacy came via heavy 'leaning' (to put it lightly) from the USA and the Zionists at the time. The oft used a land without a people for a people without a land was a misnomer.

This included Liberia, Nicaragua and France, who said aid withdrawal was in play if they voted against, Philippines, who mysteriously changed their vote from no, with a comment on how repugnant the resolution was, to a yes following a phone call from Washington after the initial vote had been delayed by zionist filibustering, Haiti who suddenly received a payment of 5 million dollars, death threats against the Indian rulers for their stance etc. I imagine there were more. I have my own thoughts on part of the reason for the acceptability being that the modern world has been shaped by Europeans flowing abroad and finding three 'new' worlds, at the expense of the people who happened to be living there at the time. There is also no doubt in my mind that even if the UN had voted no (as the initial vote seemed likely to do), the Zionists at the time would not have listened, having been trying to create facts on the ground for decades before this and with strong American support. But ah well, such is life and it is often not fair.

Still, it happened, there is no going back now and the Jews are not going to leave (nor should they). So a solution has to be found within those parameters, whatever they may be. Personally, I think the scales have tipped in terms of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians being the most likely outcome now sadly and so the situation will have gone full circle in a way.

The other point is that I feel intensely uncomfortable whenever I see someone make the bolded statement. To me, it is the same as when people ask 'why did the Jews suffer so much discrimination', the underlying message being that that they somehow brought it upon themselves. Not denying that the Palestinians have missed opportunities. But its also not accurate. You're talking about Governments, as opposed to the people, who are still heavily Pro Palestinian. The Governments have their reasons for their stances, mostly being to come under the Western economic and military umbrella, as well as to avoid any prospect of conflict with the Israeli military, which Egypt, Syria and Jordan in particular have learnt over and over again conflict will end in humiliation of their forces, land loss and, if its going another way, overwhelming American military support and the threat of nuclear weapon use. Syria for instance has been hit repeatedly by Israeli air strikes in the past year/decade, seemingly with almost no ability to protect their skies against such an attack.

That's not to say there's support for Hamas, who are seen with utter disdain by almost every single Arab/Muslim person I know or have heard of.

Edit: I agree generally with the point that there's not much point going through the depths of twitter to find the most depraved shit on both sides but disagree that one has to do so with the settlers/ IDF. Almost 100 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since October 7th 2023, which was already the most lethal year for West Bank Palestinians even beforehand for a long time. Settler violence is a pretty regular occurance there, not some random thing that almost never pops up. Its also slightly beyond the point of calling them a fringe extreme, when 1 in every 16 Israelis are currently living in settlements.
 
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Beachryan said:
There's at least a couple posters spending their time digging through Twitter black holes to find the worst incident an IDF or settler has done to show, I assume, Hamas' actions are no different
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The idea that one has to "dig through twitter black holes" to find abominable things the IDF does is completely detached from reality.
 
Beachryan said:
But the US are just as bad as Hamas! All western nations are to blame for October 7th! Israel is just a US puppet! And so forth.

Some of the views in this thread are genuinely remarkable. There's at least a couple posters spending their time digging through Twitter black holes to find the worst incident an IDF or settler has done to show, I assume, Hamas' actions are no different. They also believe Hamas is just a natural progression of the sitauaton. Israel is the only actual actor here. Sorry, Israel and the colonialist West. The indifference or outright hostility of the Muslim world towards the Gazans means nothing. Iran hating them, Egypt (who also owned Gaza for a stretch) abandoning them.

Ignoring the failures of leadership on both sides to actually settle on a two state solution. Ignoring the fact Israel has been attacked relentlessly for its entire history. Literally since day 1.

Personally I believe that the two state solution has to be the path forward, but that Hamas has done more to damage that future with their actions then anyone, possibly in the history of the turbulent region. Hamas has empowered the disgusting actions of Netanyahu. Without the October 7th attack, just about everyone in Gaza would be better off today, and better off in the medium term.

What these posters actually want is for Israel to not exist where it does. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

There are also those that seem to want to ignore that what Israel is doing is not morally wrong. It is morally wrong. And we should all be praying/hoping that some sense comes to those with the ability to reign in Netanyahu, who I hope will now be remembered as both a corrupt criminal and a war criminal.
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I'm not as active in this thread as I used to be. But just want to say kindly feck off with assumptions like this without any evidence displaying anything close to this.
 
On a side point, heavy heavy bombardment in the 'safe south' recently.

Managed to get in touch with my friend, who is thankfully alive. They are currently in a UN camp near the Rafah border and reports the bombing is getting closer and closer there. Scary times.

35 UN workers killed so far.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This makes no sense as a response. US actually seems to be reigning in the Israeli response - that is unequivocally a good thing for the average Palestinian - and delaying the ground attack.
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If this is true then this delay is not really a good thing for anyone. They're just getting ready for more war.
 
Beachryan said:
The indifference or outright hostility of the Muslim world towards the Gazans means nothing. Iran hating them, Egypt (who also owned Gaza for a stretch) abandoning them.
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You're veering dangerously close to the "109 countries" thing nazis say about Jews here.
Beachryan said:
What these posters actually want is for Israel to not exist where it does. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.
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What a fair, rational and not at all unkind assumption, based on absolutely nothing other than you own biases, to make about those you disagree with.
 
Beachryan said:
But the US are just as bad as Hamas! All western nations are to blame for October 7th! Israel is just a US puppet! And so forth.

Some of the views in this thread are genuinely remarkable. There's at least a couple posters spending their time digging through Twitter black holes to find the worst incident an IDF or settler has done to show, I assume, Hamas' actions are no different. They also believe Hamas is just a natural progression of the sitauaton. Israel is the only actual actor here. Sorry, Israel and the colonialist West. The indifference or outright hostility of the Muslim world towards the Gazans means nothing. Iran hating them, Egypt (who also owned Gaza for a stretch) abandoning them.

Ignoring the failures of leadership on both sides to actually settle on a two state solution. Ignoring the fact Israel has been attacked relentlessly for its entire history. Literally since day 1.

Personally I believe that the two state solution has to be the path forward, but that Hamas has done more to damage that future with their actions then anyone, possibly in the history of the turbulent region. Hamas has empowered the disgusting actions of Netanyahu. Without the October 7th attack, just about everyone in Gaza would be better off today, and better off in the medium term.

What these posters actually want is for Israel to not exist where it does. That's fine, but at least be honest about it.

There are also those that seem to want to ignore that what Israel is doing is not morally wrong. It is morally wrong. And we should all be praying/hoping that some sense comes to those with the ability to reign in Netanyahu, who I hope will now be remembered as both a corrupt criminal and a war criminal.
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I think people would be more receptive and less sceptical towards US and western Nations in general if it was anything more than just lip service . Their action on the ground tell us more about where they stand to be honest .
 
Quality control
When you consider the terror being perpertrated in the west bank by the jewish settlers, to me the Jews are like animals, especially in the West Bank. The jewish settlers aren’t educated towards peace, nor do they want it. There is no such thing as a jewish homeland. The PA needs arming and should wipe out the settlements, not leave it to the people. The Palestinians right to walk through the streets of the West Bank is much more important than Jews right to movement and travel – this is the reality. This is the truth. A palestinians right to life outweighs any jews right to move on the streets.
 
Drizzle said:
It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.
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Sorry but that kind of fear mongering is what perpetuates the cycle of violence in the first place.
 
The death toll has surpassed 5000 according to the authorities in Gaza, with more than 2000 children killed. Israel is the true ugly face of the this declining anglo saxon, capitalist empire we're living under. What the Palestinians are experiencing has been faced by millions across the world one time or the other, only they have endured this hell for over two generations. Palestinians are the true heroes of humanity, they have shown utlimate resilience and bravery of the human spirit in the face of an all powerful evil, armed with not just weapons of mass destruction but also a media and cultural support network that has expertise in lying, dehumanizing narratives and victim blaming. Allowing this jewel of humanity to be finally destroyed and ethnically cleansed in this era would be a historic crime, with responsibility on not just those in power but each and every individual with the slightest capacity to act, who choose instead to remain sitting comfortably in their respecitve bubble.
 
Drizzle said:
It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.
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Log off.
 
Drizzle said:
No, I'll stay thanks. Appreciate the considered response though.
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I’m amazed it’s your post that has attracted the ire when there’s another one that’s been up for 20 minutes calling Jews animals and calling for the PA to be armed so that it can “wipe out” the settlements. And I say that as someone who is anti settlement and would have no objection to them being deconstructed/handed back to Palestinians but that kind of language isn’t at all helpful.
 
Agent Red said:
I’m amazed it’s your post that has attracted the ire when there’s another one that’s been up for 20 minutes calling Jews animals and calling for the PA to be armed so that it can “wipe out” the settlements. And I say that as someone who is anti settlement and would have no objection to them being deconstructed/handed back to Palestinians but that kind of language isn’t at all helpful.
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Its not at all helpful and I was actually about to reply to that poster asking them to take down that post because what they're trying to do is incredibly clunky, with awful optics.

They are however not trying to say that but mirroring and parodying Ben Gvir, who made those comments about Palestinians relatively recently.

Should probably be edited though as its incredibly unpleasant and jarring to read, especially if you don't then see their post immediately after.
 
Agent Red said:
I’m amazed it’s your post that has attracted the ire when there’s another one that’s been up for 20 minutes calling Jews animals and calling for the PA to be armed so that it can “wipe out” the settlements. And I say that as someone who is anti settlement and would have no objection to them being deconstructed/handed back to Palestinians but that kind of language isn’t at all helpful.
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It's a quote with from the Israeli Deputy Defense Minister, substituting the word Palestinian for the word Jew.

africanspur said:
Its not at all helpful and I was actually about to reply to that poster asking them to take down that post because what they're trying to do is incredibly clunky, with awful optics.

They are however not trying to say that but mirroring and parodying Ben Gvir, who made those comments about Palestinians relatively recently.

Should probably be edited though as its incredibly unpleasant and jarring to read, especially if you don't then see their post immediately after.
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E: see above. It's a word substituted quote from Eli Ben Dahan, not a parody or exaggeration.
 
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africanspur said:
Its not at all helpful and I was actually about to reply to that poster asking them to take down that post because what they're trying to do is incredibly clunky, with awful optics.

They are however not trying to say that but mirroring and parodying Ben Gvir, who made those comments about Palestinians relatively recently.

Should probably be edited though as its incredibly unpleasant and jarring to read, especially if you don't then see their post immediately after.
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Yes, I thought the point about mirroring Ben Gvir’s language might be made. It’s not obvious that is what it is unless you look at the links in a separate post though, and a bit of a creative licence has been used. Also I think most of us would agree that language was totally unacceptable.

Thank you for posting this, and also for considered post a few pages back on your view of Israel’s place and its borders (as someone who has been lurking). We don’t agree on everything but it’s that kind of tone that raises the thread.
 
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Agent Red said:
I’m amazed it’s your post that has attracted the ire when there’s another one that’s been up for 20 minutes calling Jews animals and calling for the PA to be armed so that it can “wipe out” the settlements.
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You shouldn't be amazed. Nobody seems to be willing to do the hard work of calling out the racist imbeciles on their own team.
 
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