Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[owlo]

Look I'm happy to delete the post if it is deemed anti semetic by the mods etc.

But I would question why is it anto semetic?

I was responding to a guy who said the Jews have been persecuted throughout history by different countries, people etc. I'm Muslim and there is a mistrust over the last few years lie I've never known. But I would say Al Qaeda, Isis etc have been the source of that.

This is a people who have lived and worked and been part of communities all over the world. Yet there is factual history of atrocities they have faced. I think it's reasonable at least ponder why the Jews. Throughout history.

The rest of my post is based on actual conversations at the time and by a Jewish person.

1. Asking what the reason is, that Jews have been one of the most persecuted groups through history. It’s like asking why it is that blacks were enslaved more. It’s a question framed to attribute possible blame to Jews (ie. If Jews acted differently they’d be persecuted less. Jews were persecuted in different ages and regions for different reasons; the rise of Christianity being a major factor

2. The bit about hitler I’m not even sure how to approach, linking a Jewish state to the rise/causes of hitler? I collect 17th/18th century German antisemitic medals….

3. A bad take from one Jew proven wrong by history is meaninglesso, anti semitism was virulent when there was no prospect of a Jewish state, and Jews have not lost national identity since the foundation of a Jewish state. With hindsight, his opinion is simply nonsense.

Im sure @2cents can answer you more eloquently should he choose to. It’s a horrible and ignorant post though.

 

[Halftrack]

The offer to Arafat was the ballpark maximum possible. Some possibilities around a Jerusalem neutrality zone but I can’t see how he could have been offered much more?

The views on what Barak's offer to Arafat actually entailed differ based on whose telling it. The Palestinians were unhappy with the partioning of the West Bank, and the quality of some of the territories Israel was prepared to offer as compensation for territories lost.

There were other sticking points as well, such as Barak's wish to postpone talks surrounding Jerusalem and the question of right of return for Palestinian refugees.

I was perhaps overly harsh, as I do think Barak's offer was in good faith. What has followed since then, though, I don't think has been.

The point is that Hamas would reject it, even if hypothetically israel offered it. All those people who think it is a solution but Israeli intransigence is the problem, don't seem to consider Hamas don't want it anyway. And there is no peace without Hamas, a third or not.

Both Hamas and Israeli intransigence is the problem.

You can say "what's the point of offering a deal if Hamas are never going to accept it anyway?" and I'll say that Israel has never offered a deal that's acceptable to Palestinians, be they Hamas, Fatah or anyone else.

 

[Roane]

1. Asking what the reason is, that Jews have been one of the most persecuted groups through history. It’s like asking why it is that blacks were enslaved more. It’s a question framed to attribute possible blame to Jews (ie. If Jews acted differently they’d be persecuted less. Jews were persecuted in different ages and regions for different reasons; the rise of Christianity being a major factor

2. The bit about hitler I’m not even sure how to approach, linking a Jewish state to the rise/causes of hitler? I collect 17th/18th century German antisemitic medals….

3. A bad take from one Jew proven wrong by history is meaninglesso, anti semitism was virulent when there was no prospect of a Jewish state, and Jews have not lost national identity since the foundation of a Jewish state. With hindsight, his opinion is simply nonsense.

Im sure @2cents can answer you more eloquently should he choose to. It’s a horrible and ignorant post though.

I don't believe so but happy to leave it there so as not to digress from the thread.

 

[NotThatSoph]

1. Asking what the reason is, that Jews have been one of the most persecuted groups through history. It’s like asking why it is that blacks were enslaved more. It’s a question framed to attribute possible blame to Jews (ie. If Jews acted differently they’d be persecuted less. Jews were persecuted in different ages and regions for different reasons; the rise of Christianity being a major factor

2. The bit about hitler I’m not even sure how to approach, linking a Jewish state to the rise/causes of hitler? I collect 17th/18th century German antisemitic medals….

3. A bad take from one Jew proven wrong by history is meaninglesso, anti semitism was virulent when there was no prospect of a Jewish state, and Jews have not lost national identity since the foundation of a Jewish state. With hindsight, his opinion is simply nonsense.

Im sure @2cents can answer you more eloquently should he choose to. It’s a horrible and ignorant post though.

I agree that it's a bad question. It's a question, though, asked of someone who is essentially taking the 109 countries meme nazis use and attempting to use it as a defense of Israel. The whole thing is weird.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Roane]

I agree that it's a bad question. It's a question, though, asked of someone who is essentially taking the 109 countries meme nazis use and attempting to use it as a defense of Israel. The whole thing is weird.

I actually never knew about the 109 thing before.

Learn something new every day

 

[owlo]

I agree that it's a bad question. It's a question, though, asked of someone who is essentially taking the 109 countries meme nazis use and attempting to use it as a defense of Israel. The whole thing is weird.

Yea, the guy he’s responding to is either a troll, shill, or heartless bugger, or combination of the above. Not worth engaging with.

It was possibly asked in good faith, though the following post obviously wasn’t. I think a certain amount of anti semitism is rational right now, but its Good to explain why it’s bad.

Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.

This one.

 

[Roane]

Just learnt about the family unification law thing.

If a Palestinian from one territory marries another from a different territory they can't live together in the other territory legally.

One woman from central Israel married a guy from the GaA strip. It took 18 years for the family unification


She was at one stage giving birth and the Israeli authorities came in and arrested her husband.

 

[africanspur]

A collection of thoughts and links from a MENA scholar I respect (but don't always agree with by any means) and who knows the region and the debates surrounding it very well - worth reading through to the extremely grim conclusion (which I find it hard to disagree with unfortunately):

"A categorical assertion: October 7th was the worst day in the history of the Arab-Zionist/Israeli conflict. Ever. Since its origins in the 19th century. This for the reasons specified by Eva Illouz and more: of 14 million Jews and Arabs, evenly divided, living in a land the size of Vermont or Normandy, hating, fearing, and distrusting the other more than ever, with no desire to coexist in the same space but unable to separate. I pronounced the Israel-Palestine conflict to be insoluble years ago but now it is definitive: there is no hope whatever. Except that the conflict can no longer be managed (from the Israeli standpoint) in the way that it has been. And the implication of the rest of the region, notably Iran and its clients, in the conflct, i..e, in a war, cannot be excluded. An apocalypse is not out of the question."

https://arunwithaview.wordpress.com/2023/10/21/the-israel-hamas-war/#comments

It's heartbreaking.

This is a genuinely heartbreaking read.

None of the hostages (civilian in particular) deserve this but some of these are so sad to read.

Along similar lines, this from the BBC live feed about one of the two hostages released today:

An extraordinary moment tonight. A video released by Hamas shows the moment the two elderly hostages were delivered, in the dark, to representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Eighty-five-year-old Yocheved Lifschitz identifies herself and confirms her age.

Then, before leaving, she turns to a masked Hamas gunman, shakes his hand and says “shalom”.

Yocheved’s husband, eighty five year old Oded, is still in captivity. He’s a peace activist who’s reported to have spent his retirement driving Gazan cancer patients to hospital in Israel for treatment.

Again.....awful, awful, awful.

 

[RedTiger]

Thankfully another hostage released. Let's hope that hamas releases the remaining hostages before Israel bombs them.

 

[That_Bloke]

Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace

The Hamas was against the Oslo Accord and did its worst to destroy the peace process at the time through suicide attacks. You basically have now the two sides lead by the people who never wanted peace in the first place.

 

[owlo]

This is a genuinely heartbreaking read.

None of the hostages (civilian in particular) deserve this but some of these are so sad to read.

Along similar lines, this from the BBC live feed about one of the two hostages released today:



Again.....awful, awful, awful.

Handshake already being politicised by one of the cranks @The Corinthian is linking above to say, “look, the Hamas fighters arent bad, they treated her well”

Her husband is probably super happy his love is safe. We all die eventually, and he can probably die in relative peace now. (Tiny positive but we cling to those)

 

[The Corinthian]

Yea, the guy he’s responding to is either a troll, shill, or heartless bugger, or combination of the above. Not worth engaging with.

It was possibly asked in good faith, though the following post obviously wasn’t. I think a certain amount of anti semitism is rational right now, but its Good to explain why it’s bad.

I'd genuinely like to see a post in this thread since Oct 7 that is, in your view, anti-semitic. I'd certainly seen some anti-Arab, and possibly Islamophobic rhetoric, but I haven't seen anything that I'd say is anti-semitic. We had one poster that made some allusions to control of the media I think but I think he cleared up what he meant in a further post about the pro-Israeli lobby.

 

[The Corinthian]

Handshake already being politicised by one of the cranks @The Corinthian is linking above to say, “look, the Hamas fighters arent bad, they treated her well”

What are you on about? Why not respond to my actual posts rather than making weird scenarios & shit up in your head.

 

[That_Bloke]

There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.

So tonight, the released were two elderly women.

I'm certain that they will release more, just to say "See, we're not the monsters the world makes us out to be."

But they will never release all of them with the ground invasion looming and which will happen imo. That would lift off any kind of restraint for the IDF in the tunnel war where I believe Hamas is going to make its biggest stand. The surface is lost, the fighting there other than skirmishes would be suicide, and they know it. The tunnels will be a whole different story.

 

[owlo]

I'd genuinely like to see a post in this thread since Oct 7 that is, in your view, anti-semitic. I'd certainly seen some anti-Arab, and possibly Islamophobic rhetoric, but I haven't seen anything that I'd say is anti-semitic. We had one poster that made some allusions to control of the media I think but I think he cleared up what he meant in a further post about the pro-Israeli lobby.

I just quoted one. And explained why it is so. Your reply to it was quite obviously anti semitic too.

What are you on about? Why not respond to my actual posts rather than making weird scenarios & shit up in your head.

The Asa Winstanley guy. Perhaps vet the cranks you tweet rather than accusing me of making shit up.

 

[VorZakone]

Biden putting pressure on Israel with this tweet?

"We cannot give up on a two state solution."

 

[africanspur]

Handshake already being politicised by one of the cranks @The Corinthian is linking above to say, “look, the Hamas fighters arent bad, they treated her well”

Her husband is probably super happy his love is safe. We all die eventually, and he can probably die in relative peace now. (Tiny positive but we cling to those)

That video is probably one of the more surreal ones I have ever seen.

 

[Revan]

Michael Eisen removed as editor of eLife for retweeting the Onion’s dark humour joke (the one discussed before here which was something along the lines of ‘Dying Gazas criticized for not using their last words to condemn Hamas’).

Beyond ridiculous!

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yea, the guy he’s responding to is either a troll, shill, or heartless bugger, or combination of the above. Not worth engaging with.

It was possibly asked in good faith, though the following post obviously wasn’t. I think a certain amount of anti semitism is rational right now, but its Good to explain why it’s bad.

It's a recent convert to the cause, I think, not a troll or a shill. Argues similarly to how you often see former evangelical Christians argue for atheism; fervor combined with a clear lack of familiarity. Either a recent political shift, or a discovery due to family ties or a personal relationship. Could in theory be someone very young, but that's not possible due to the 86 plus signup date.

 

[E-mal]

Biden putting pressure on Israel with this tweet?

"We cannot give up on a two state solution."

He is a coward, he is more afraid of pro Israeli lobby than a lifetime dent on his conscious. He is 86 years old, has accomplished a lifetime goal of becoming a president with all the power in the world, will be alive at best for 5-10years, only cowardice is stopping him from doing what is right.

 

[The Corinthian]

I just quoted one. And explained why it is so. Your reply to it was quite obviously anti semitic too.

It's not anti-semitic to ask why Jews are more deserving of a homeland more so than any other demographic. In fact, I'd have no issue with it if it didn't come at the expense, brutalisation and oppression of Palestinians. People who had literally nothing to do with Germans and European anti-semitism in that time period.

The Asa Winstanley guy. Perhaps vet the cranks you tweet rather than accusing me of making shit up.

Are you being intentionally dense? His tweet links the article, the article is then posted and quoted from. That's it. And he's not a crank.

 

[The Firestarter]

He is a coward, he is more afraid of pro Israeli lobby than a lifetime dent on his conscious. He is 86 years old, has accomplished a lifetime goal of becoming a president with all the power in the world, will be alive at best for 5-10years, only cowardice is stopping him from doing what is right.

Which is what exactly ?

 

[tomaldinho1]

He is a coward, he is more afraid of pro Israeli lobby than a lifetime dent on his conscious. He is 86 years old, has accomplished a lifetime goal of becoming a president with all the power in the world, will be alive at best for 5-10years, only cowardice is stopping him from doing what is right.

This makes no sense as a response. US actually seems to be reigning in the Israeli response - that is unequivocally a good thing for the average Palestinian - and delaying the ground attack. Biden is an old feck and a fool but for once the US is actually behaving ok in a very difficult political minefield and pushing for peace.

 

[RedTiger]

Michael Eisen removed as editor of eLife for retweeting the Onion’s dark humour joke (the one discussed before here which was something along the lines of ‘Dying Gazas criticized for not using their last words to condemn Hamas’).

Beyond ridiculous!

His colleagues are stepping down from editing positions in solidarity with him.

 

[E-mal]

Which is what exactly ?

Stop the genocide, demand Israel act with restraint, don't fund Israel with bombs against innocent civilians and do what is right by addressing the root cause of the problem. Him of all people should know that violence has not achieved anything, not in Vietnam, Iraqx2 and Afghanistan. It has not brought peace to Israel and would never guarantee peace.
14 billion dollar worth of military support for Israel against Hamas and Palestinian civilians ? way to show no bias. One wonders what the difference is between US supported Israel and Iran alleged support for Hamas

 

[owlo]

That video is probably one of the more surreal ones I have ever seen.

Im not watching any more videos from this conflict which include people unfortunately. I just can’t. It was radicalising my views and anger and making me less balanced and rational. Pictures are sad enough. But I definitely get the sentiment and you have to wonder what was going through her mind, 85 years old, must have thought she’ll never see peace or dignity for Palestinian people, nor safety for her own. Terrified for her husband yet resolute. Dignity off the charts, even if she goes home, vomits, and vows to vote to kill them all. Which she probably won’t, despite being perfectly entitled to. There’s not really fear at that age I suspect, only regret.

It's not anti-semitic to ask why Jews are more deserving of a homeland more so than any other demographic. In fact, I'd have no issue with it if it didn't come at the expense, brutalisation and oppression of Palestinians. People who had literally nothing to do with Germans and European anti-semitism in that time period.


Are you being intentionally dense? His tweet links the article, the article is then posted and quoted from. That's it. And he's not a crank.

That’s not what he asked though is it. I’ve addressed exactly why his post was anti semitic. Your response that “crying anti semitism doesnt make it anti semitism“ was obviously anti semitic, as you decided to add a few tropes in yourself.

You posted tweets from a guy very visibly supporting Hamas terrorism on his account. You gave him airtime, that’s on you. A guy like that obviously isn’t balanced in views and is a crank.

 

[E-mal]

This makes no sense as a response. US actually seems to be reigning in the Israeli response - that is unequivocally a good thing for the average Palestinian - and delaying the ground attack. Biden is an old feck and a fool but for once the US is actually behaving ok in a very difficult political minefield and pushing for peace.

Explain how supporting Israel with 14 billion dollars in Military support as a way of reigning in on Israel? How about vetoing all UN resolutions to pause hostilities ? They have vetoed all resolutions and singlehandedly done so, clear message to Palestinians where their loyalties lie.

 

[owlo]

It's a recent convert to the cause, I think, not a troll or a shill. Argues similarly to how you often see former evangelical Christians argue for atheism; fervor combined with a clear lack of familiarity. Either a recent political shift, or a discovery due to family ties or a personal relationship. Could in theory be someone very young, but that's not possible due to the 86 plus signup date.

Id like to hear about your experiences with former evangelicals one day. I think I’m too used to having a semi popular twitter; half the interaction seems to be this kind of guy.

 

[The Corinthian]

That’s not what he asked though is it. I’ve addressed exactly why his post was anti semitic. Your response that “crying anti semitism doesnt make it anti semitism“ was obviously anti semitic, as you decided to add a few tropes in yourself.

You posted tweets from a guy very visibly supporting Hamas terrorism on his account. You gave him airtime, that’s on you. A guy like that obviously isn’t balanced in views and is a crank.

I mean, if you're going to deliberately misrepresent what was said, and not even quote me correctly when there's even a quote function on the page then it just shows your dishonesty in this whole conversation. And then this vague accusation of 'decided to add a few tropes in yourself' - again, it's just made up and probably backs up my original point pretty well.

Also Asa Winstanley is a journo and visibly isn't supporting Hamas, but by all means make lies and vague accusations up. It's par for the course with your lot.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Explain how supporting Israel with 14 billion dollars in Military support as a way of reigning in on Israel? How about vetoing all UN resolutions to pause hostilities ? They have vetoed all resolutions and singlehandedly done so, clear message to Palestinians where their loyalties lie.

If you choose to live in world that is removed from planet earth where the US just severs ties with a long-standing ally, sure, we can discuss that world. That’s not, sadly, the world we live in. Of course the US’ official loyalty is to Israel, that’s not going to change.

 

[The Corinthian]

If you choose to live in world that is removed from planet earth where the US just severs ties with a long-standing ally, sure, we can discuss that world. That’s not, sadly, the world we live in. Of course the US’ official loyalty is to Israel, that’s not going to change.

That's the whole point though, isn't it. If US wanted to they could change the situation, hold Israel to account, withhold military etc to the point where they're either forced to sit at the negotiating table with the Palestinians or for Israel to just sever ties with the US.

You're right though - because of anaemic US leadership.

 

[The Firestarter]

Stop the genocide, demand Israel act with restraint, don't fund Israel with bombs against innocent civilians and do what is right by addressing the root cause of the problem. Him of all people should know that violence has not achieved anything, not in Vietnam, Iraqx2 and Afghanistan. It has not brought peace to Israel and would never guarantee peace.
14 billion dollar worth of military support for Israel against Hamas and Palestinian civilians ? way to show no bias. One wonders what the difference is between US supported Israel and Iran alleged support for Hamas

No US president would ever deny military aid after such a terrorist attack. Its simply not happening.

 

[The Firestarter]

“Your lot” means what exactly? I directly quoted what you said earlier.

It cant be anything remotely racist can it? Not in this exemplary thread.

 

[The Corinthian]

“Your lot” means what exactly? I directly quoted what you said earlier.

And he’s an obvious crank who visibly is supporting Hamas. He’s no “journalist” - lets have a look at his last 12 hours or so.

Your lot = any pro-Israeli in this thread (and wider circles) that casts vague accusations, blanket statements and generalisations and deflects when confronted. You're the perfect practitioner of it.

You picked on a tweet that had a link and ignored the whole post about the article. Why?

And we've been through the 'from the river to the sea' debate ad infinitum in this thread - it's not anti-semitic, no matter how much you try and convince yourself.

 

[owlo]

No US president would ever deny military aid after such a terrorist attack. Its simply not happening.

Hey terrorists, we get why you are mad. How about your own state so you can live peacefully like hezbollah do in Lebanonand plot the destruction of your enemy. And we’ll weaken your sworn enemy too, in case you need to rampage again.

Your lot = any pro-Israeli in this thread (and wider circles) that casts vague accusations, blanket statements and generalisations and deflects when confronted. You're the perfect practitioner of it.

You picked on a tweet that had a link and ignored the whole post about the article. Why?

And we've been through the 'from the river to the sea' debate ad infinitum in this thread - it's not anti-semitic, no matter how much you try and convince yourself.

Because I tend to read and analyse media from honest, balanced, and intelligent sources, not heavily biased cranks doling out misinformation. Based on the tweets I posted, you can surely agree he is a heavily biased crank.

If there was even a whiff of credibility of mass Israeli killings of their civilians, worthwhile media like bellingcat would have reported on it or at least mentioned it. The fact its only reverberating in your echo chamber is an indication that you need to review your sources as they are trash, not that I need to start reading every conspiracy theory and trash from every crank out there. Show me a single credible source referencing the material and I’d at least skim it.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Id like to hear about your experiences with former evangelicals one day. I think I’m too used to having a semi popular twitter; half the interaction seems to be this kind of guy.

Stories for happier days, hopefully.

 

[E-mal]

If you choose to live in world that is removed from planet earth where the US just severs ties with a long-standing ally, sure, we can discuss that world. That’s not, sadly, the world we live in. Of course the US’ official loyalty is to Israel, that’s not going to change.

In order to avoid this to and fro dance of the death, loyalty does not equate to supporting genocide and it must be strategic. Alienating itself from the Arab and Muslim world is not strategic especially with the understanding that it depends on this countries for its oil and gas. But not worry, it will fabricate another weapons of mass destruction to invade this countries when the oil and gas stop coming.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Also Asa Winstanley is a journo and visibly isn't supporting Hamas

Sure bud .

Spoiler: Asa Winstanley (visibly NOT supporting Hamas)

Here he is even sharing a promo vid ffs:

Edit: I mean, there's loads more.

 

[E-mal]

No US president would ever deny military aid after such a terrorist attack. Its simply not happening.

I suppose all the Israeli bombings since 7/10 and for 75 years before this is not terrorism but self defence right. It is the hypocrisy that irks me the most.