Once again, you've deliberately misrepresented my words. The galling thing is you can actually read my post in the quote.Anti semites aren’t likely to see things as anti semitic. Higher level anti semitism doesn’t make lower level anti semitism less real. And of course Jews can be anti semitic. Breaking it down to “actual prejudice” per your definitions and “fake anti semitism“ is not exactly good.
That said, you’re pushing a narrative that all the violence is Israel’s fault and a product of Zionism and Israel’s existence, pushing Hamas viewpoints through Hamas cranks, so it’s par for the course.
Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?
There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?
Good thread on non-violent resistance and how that worked out.
What options do you think are still open? (And a wild tiger is inevitably worse than one in a cage so it’s a bad analogy!)
Finally get their dream. I'm sure there will still be issues and they won't have peace because it seems on the face of it, that the governments are incapable of it.
There is no justifying it. It was abhorrent.
Understanding how it has come to this is not a justification.
When guns are picked up barbarism follows. It's the lack of choice to armed struggle. Only very very few ideologues will choose that path if there is an alternative. What is the alternative for Palestine, existing as second class humans indefinitely?
The suffering of Palestinians is constant, not just a constant threat, but constant. They are oppressed, humiliated, maimed, intimidated, arrested and shot, and it doesn't make the news, because it's not news.
And it's not religion alone, it never is. If it was religion alone, Israel wouldn't and couldn't exist. It's about compromise and co existence. If these things were religion alone there would be no peace anywhere.
I found one part weird, but I don't consider myself educated enough on these things to point it out as a big deal.Do elaborate
Well said.The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.
Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.
Except it has never been that way. Ever.
Good thread on non-violent resistance and how that worked out.
The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.
Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.
Except it has never been that way. Ever.
The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.
Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.
Except it has never been that way. Ever.
Good points, well made. I’m not even sure why I shared those details. Or read them in the first place. It’s all so desperately sad. So hard to see any prospect of peace when the hatred is so deep rooted on both sides.
Except what Hamas did wasn't "resistance". It was an offensive act to goad the Israelis into responding with overwhelming force, which is precisely what is happening now. No sane Hamas leader would've been under delusion that murdering 1300 + Israelis would've not received a savage and unprecedented response. So perhaps we should also spare a thought for the myth of violent resistance when the attacking side is overwhelmingly outgunned.
Except what Hamas did wasn't "resistance". It was a premeditated, offensive act to goad the Israelis into responding with overwhelming force, which is precisely what is happening now. No sane Hamas leader would've been under delusion that murdering 1300 + Israelis would've not received a savage and unprecedented response. So perhaps we should also spare a thought for the myth of violent resistance when the attacking side is overwhelmingly outgunned.
You mean Hamas. That number likely comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas.The death toll has surpassed 5000 according to the authorities in Gaza, with more than 2000 children killed.
You mean Hamas. That number likely comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas.
It may be right, it may be wrong, but the source is relevant.
True, but if we are really going try to understand, it then we need to understand the regional forces at play as well. This is not just about Hamas taking revenge. For example, the timing - why now?Understanding how it has come to this is not a justification.
Who stands to lose? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen
True, but if we are really going try to understand, then there are other things in play as well. For example, the timing - why now?
Well, it turns out that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a deal normalising relations. with Israel. That cements Saudi ambitions to be the regional power. Who stands to lose? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.
And who backs Hamas? Iran. Which country gains from all this mayhem. Iran.
I suppose you believe the number brought forward by Israeli government right?You mean Hamas. That number likely comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas.
It may be right, it may be wrong, but the source is relevant.
The other question for me is whether Iran thinks it has achieved its goals or not in all this, sounds like opinion is split on that.Saudi Arabia and Iran are currently engaged in a Chinese-brokered rapprochement, and the war in Yemen has wound down significantly in the last two years, with genuine hopes for some kind of long-term peace on the table due to the Saudi-Iranian thaw (having said that I do agree the Saudi-Israel talks likely played a role in this, and it'll be interesting to see the long-term Saudi response).
I think the source should be cited when numbers are being quoted. Do you?I suppose you believe the number brought forward by Israeli government right?
True, but if we are really going try to understand, it then we need to understand the regional forces at play as well. This is not just about Hamas taking revenge. For example, the timing - why now?
Well, it turns out that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a deal normalising relations, with Israel - now off the table. That would have cemented Saudi ambitions to be the regional power. Who stands to lose in that? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.
And who backs Hamas? Iran. Which country gains from all this mayhem. Iran. That's not in anyone interests, frankly.
I have just given you the source for the unfortunate deaths of the Israelis as the Israeli government, do you believe the numbers?I think the source should be cited when numbers are being quoted. Do you?
I have just given you the source for the unfortunate deaths of the Israelis as the Israeli government, do you believe the numbers?
Ah that's all speculation, and possibly all true, and I'm not going to debate it. I'm not saying Hamas are some sort of pure revolutionary zeitgeist embodied. What they did was outrageous regardless of any possible paralell agendas.
I'm just speaking in general about armed resistance and why and where it gains traction. If Hamas didn't exist in Palestine, someone else would. And maybe they too would have backers with tangential aims.
The fact remains, Palestine has something to resist and no viable other means of resistance or path to change.
Which is the only point I was trying to make. Understanding the need and drive for resistance, not the motives for October 7th.
And now Iran has two US carriers off its coast, they can't be happy about that outcome.Yahya Sinwar has also apparently been obsessed with getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli jails. So beyond the geopolitical angle of derailing the Israeli-Saudi peace accords, I think this may have also been a simple situation where Sinwar thought the attack would kill two birds with one stone (so to speak), by derailing the peace deal and somehow delusionally, getting the Israelis to do a hostage swap, whilst ignoring the likelihood the Israelis would retaliate by obliterating Gaza.
I dont agree. The drive for resistance is more a function o& internal politics. PIJ and others have gained limited traction in Gaza in the last few years, and whilst Hamas have always had to balance things and had obvious command disagreements, they walked the line in 2019, 2023, and 2022 quite ok. Hamas have been quite happy to harvest the suffering [through pij retaliation by the iaf] to fragment support and splice leadership back to Hamas. It’s been the Israeli strategy too, blaming militancy for Gazan suffering, and hamas have stayed out of it/implicitly supported it. The idea that “Palestine“ wants armed resistance isn’t more than a theory, and the level of resistance has been more a function of internal Hamas politics. Pre this incident, more gazans than ever had Israeli work permits etc, and cooperation with Israel in return for cash. Gaza has been relatively calm for a reason.
Obviously they have changed track, but the root causes and scales of armed resistance in gaza cannot be simplified as “gazans are oppressed and mass violent resistance is a function of that oppression.”
While there are always plenty of moving parts, oppression is a pretty constant factor in the history of armed resistance. It's pretty much integral.
No lies told here.
Plenty of terrorism/armed resistance without oppression exists and has existed in history.
The root cause is not always oppression. Reducing Gaza to “we must carry out armed oppression because we are oppressed“ ignores all the factors above whilst making the assumption that oppression is the overriding factor defining their lives.
And you're assuming it isn't. I'd say in weeks like this week I'd be closer to the truth than you. And in my lifetime there have been many many bad weeks.
You're also ignoring the very obvious half century plus of oppression.
While it may not be what sparked October 7th, it's almost definitely created the the fertile ground to grow whatever you would say is the driving factor.
