Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

@Superden's post was clearly meant to be a parody of Ben Gvir's comments. Am I the only getting that? He posted the link to the quotations after (when he should have started with that, or included it in his initial post).
 
JagUTD said:
Thankfully yes. However I don't really think its something that should be dismissed so flippantly when you consider where dangerous rhetoric has led us before, many times.

Its not as if several politicians haven't also made the same point, or numeorus Jewish people around the world. There not shutting schools or keeping businesses closed for a laugh, there's a genuine fear, supported by advice from the authorities concerned for their safety.

So yeh, belittling the poster over it was at best, unfair.
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I have tbh I do understand fear from Jewish people from around the globe but some of the shutting of schools and businesses in certain areas of the UK is not something I thought needs happening.

Certainly in some areas where there are private security etc

The question asked was why have you shut? What's happened? And the response is nothing specific
 
The Corinthian said:
@Superden's post was clearly meant to be a parody of Ben Gvir's comments. Am I the only getting that? He posted the link to the quotations after (when he should have started with that, or included it in his initial post).
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Which is why he wasn't permabanned.

Still terrible and incredibly ill-advised inflamatory posting no matter what.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
But you could levy this charge at any large country - if Russia wanted to they could pull out of Ukraine, if China wanted to they could stop x,y or z border incursion. I think we have to unfortunately be somewhat realistic in expectations for all these countries and what they can and will do, if you are genuinely just arguing that the US could put a stop to Israel's attacks on Gaza, I don't think they actually could, there was always going to be some kind of reaction from Israel and you can just look back through history to see this happening time and time again.

Let's look at this objectively, what is the US doing that is somewhat unexpected? Biden on record talking about a two state solution is very big news, he's also spoken about Palestine as a state, there is also clear evidence of at least some positive influence on restraining Israel. As much as you look at the situation and, rightly, might think that is not 'enough' we should also have the ability to process the fact that it is something tangible. The ideal realistic, and that is the key word here, is Israel can be influenced to pause the ground invasion completely, the border clashes calm down and then countries come together and work out a way they can slowly weaken and eventually destroy Hamas. Palestine minus Hamas is well placed to have a bright future but it will take a lot of time and trust from all sides.
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I agree in principle, but I find the US's position unique in this conflict as they have enabled the situation more than any other. The other situations aren't similar in that regard. Plus, considering how powerful the Israeli lobby is in the US, the amount of military aid they get, the actual statements we see Biden and his predecessors make - there isn't anything quite like in geo-politically in my mind (happy to be corrected). It's a situation where Israel can pretty much act with impunity as they know the US will have their back. They constantly veto an UN Security Council resolution, Israel has broken countless Geneva conventions and international laws, but the reason they're not held to account is because of the US.

But yea, we're lightyears away from a place where the US hold Isreal to account.
 
The Corinthian said:
@Superden's post was clearly meant to be a parody of Ben Gvir's comments. Am I the only getting that? He posted the link to the quotations after (when he should have started with that, or included it in his initial post).
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No, multiple people commented on it being parodying Ben Gvir. He can make a post for talking points about Ben Gvirs disgusting views without posting them as his own to provoke a reaction.
 
The Corinthian said:
@Superden's post was clearly meant to be a parody of Ben Gvir's comments. Am I the only getting that? He posted the link to the quotations after (when he should have started with that, or included it in his initial post).
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The post came across like a 19-year-old white girl from a sorority in Alabama singing along to this song, and shouting every word a little too loudly.
 
Roane said:
I have tbh I do understand fear from Jewish people from around the globe but some of the shutting of schools and businesses in certain areas of the UK is not something I thought needs happening.

Certainly in some areas where there are private security etc

The question asked was why have you shut? What's happened? And the response is nothing specific
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The question was asked by whom and answered by whom?
 
Some grim confessions here. Predictably, some of them claim they were duped by their leadership in Qatar.

 
Drizzle said:
Sorry it's not helpful in predicting massacres. It's just a prediction.
But to wave it away as if it's not an obviously growing possibility is just as unhelpful.

You're accusing others of arguing in bad faith by the way, and that is simply not true. The actual response to my post suggested that it would be the Israeli bombing rather than the rhetoric around it that would cause rising antisemitism. I disagree. It's extremist and violent rhetoric that means any justifiable anger at Israel gets targeted at innocent jews. If there's a racist attack on anybody, blame the attackers.
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In my opinion, there is a huge difference between saying "I am worried about the increase in violence against Jews around the world" and "Massacres against Jews around the world are a given". You did the latter, and it's hyperbolic and bordering on fear mongering.

And you did argue in bad faith. Your response here is bonkers:
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think the indiscriminate bombing of civilians is probably more relevant than the rhetoric.
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Drizzle said:
So the indiscriminate bombing by the Israeli government causes or justifies the massacre of jews around the world. Noted.
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The logic suggested by Iker Queadillas is quite simple: Israels bombing of Gaza is leading to an increase in antisemitic sentiment around the world - not the rhetoric around the bombing. Or at the very least that the bombing leads to the rhetoric, which leads to antisemitism. There is nothing "extreme" or "violent" about that suggestion, and it doesn't try to justify any kind of attacks on Jewish people. You are projecting you're interpretation onto that post, which is arguing in bad faith.
 
The Corinthian said:
@Superden's post was clearly meant to be a parody of Ben Gvir's comments. Am I the only getting that? He posted the link to the quotations after (when he should have started with that, or included it in his initial post).
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I only got it after reading the followup post... In a fast moving thread, it's not always obvious immediately.

In any case I think he probably shouldn't have made that post. No need to fall to the level of the terrorist scumbags in the Israeli government.
 
Drizzle said:
It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.
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Absolute nonsense. Take a break mate.
 
That_Bloke said:
Thank you for expanding on it. Little good it did to them, SA still abandoned them basically pushed them in the arms of Iran.

Interestingly Saudi Arabia turning on Hamas also happened the same year (2017), which also coincides with the appointment of Bin Salman as Crown Prince. Can we deduce that the two are correlated? MbS had evidently other ideas about the region.
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Yeah, I believe you can say that it correlates. MBS has massive ambitions for KSA (he's the main driving force behind Saudi Vision 2030); he wants KSA to emerge as a major geopolitical power and targets regional stability to increase prosperity, and he sees the theocratic regime in Iran and its proxies as the major hindrance to that. He initiated the blockage of Qatar mainly because of Qatar's links to Iran, but that kinda backfired. A major hindrance is also obviously the conflict we are discussing, hence his willingness to strike a deal with Israel and find a solution for both parties.
 
africanspur said:
Something I was thinking of in terms of Netanyahu and his warlike rhetoric, as well as how long he's been in power....I don't think he's ever gone to war has he? He's always found a way to avoid it.
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Yeah, he always avoided it. In 2014, when Israel started an operation in Gaza and there were calls for a ground invasion, he even leaked an army briefing estimating the amount of IDF who might be killed in order to change public perception and not let things escalate to an actual war.

It's not surprising, really. People who know him always said he's a coward and paranoid.

africanspur said:
He is in unchartered territory here and isn't exactly doing a great job so far, considering he seems to be refusing to meet families of hostages/ has allies briefing against the IDF already?
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He has met representatives of the families once (and turned that into a political circus). As for the briefings against the IDF, yeah, it's happening all the time. He's more concerned with his own political survival so he's putting the blame on anyone but himself. He's even refusing to admit he has any sort of responsibility for what happened, unlike the heads of the IDF and other security organizations. He's selfish and pathetic.
 
The Corinthian said:
I agree in principle, but I find the US's position unique in this conflict as they have enabled the situation more than any other. The other situations aren't similar in that regard. Plus, considering how powerful the Israeli lobby is in the US, the amount of military aid they get, the actual statements we see Biden and his predecessors make - there isn't anything quite like in geo-politically in my mind (happy to be corrected). It's a situation where Israel can pretty much act with impunity as they know the US will have their back. They constantly veto an UN Security Council resolution, Israel has broken countless Geneva conventions and international laws, but the reason they're not held to account is because of the US.

But yea, we're lightyears away from a place where the US hold Isreal to account.
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That's why I do think you can look at what the US has done and conclude there is at least some pressure on Israel here, maybe I am a pessimist but I thought the ground invasion would be well underway by now because Israel would have known international pressure would not let them just flatten a city and they would have to act fast, I think there is still a small, ever closing, window that they can still go in but it gets harder and harder the longer time goes on. That's a small positive in a sea of shit.

I think most people now agree the timing of the Hamas attack is not a coincidence with the normalisation with Saudi on the horizon, the sticking point is supposedly the two state solution but if a POTUS is coming out and talking about that on record you have to think there is tremendous internal pressure on Israel to accept this outcome. The reasons the US want the normalisation are obviously nothing other than selfish but that goes for all countries and how they act, as long as the end result is some form of peace for the average person we should all want that.

The issue for everyone now is Iran/Hezbollah - if the US can deter them from joining I am hopeful the situation will start to deescalate, we are seeing hostages slowly released, aid (albeit not enough) is going into Gaza, Egypt are somewhat playing ball now with their crossing...all this is a very small improvement on where things were.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, he always avoided it. In 2014, when Israel started an operation in Gaza and there were calls for a ground invasion, he even leaked an army briefing estimating the amount of IDF who might be killed in order to change public perception and not let things escalate to an actual war.

It's not surprising, really. People who know him always said he's a coward and paranoid.



He has met representatives of the families once (and turned that into a political circus). As for the briefings against the IDF, yeah, it's happening all the time. He's more concerned with his own political survival so he's putting the blame on anyone but himself. He's even refusing to admit he has any sort of responsibility for what happened, unlike the heads of the IDF and other security organizations. He's selfish and pathetic.
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Thanks for that. He really is such a weasel.
 
Raoul said:
Some grim confessions here. Predictably, some of them claim they were duped by their leadership in Qatar.

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That was rough as hell, need a few hours to let it sink.
Not that I didn't know Hamas was evil or these things happen of course, just that listening to it is a bit heavy.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I think Biden's administration understood they had to 'shift' in order to accommodate various political groups. I don't know if they're trying to achieve that by doing PR or by taking meaningful action yet. I think it's going to take a while to truly settle that.
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I think their ultimate goal is defusing everything as quickly as possible to get back to Saudi relations. However, their ally who has a large amount of domestic influence has just been the victim of a terrorist attack and Iran is basically threatening to join the war already so they are basically sending as much deterrence as they can, two aircraft carriers, a number of destroyers and undoubtedly subs is a very strong message on that front. Plus the anti missile systems listed in that tweet. Can they fully reign in Israel, sadly I think most people think no, but it is more time for Palestinians to move south before the ground attack. I don't personally know what a ground attack would achieve, Hamas says it has 35,000 soldiers in the Gaza strip waiting, aside from just shelling the place to rubble the IDF can't go in without suffering huge losses. Horrible situation and hard to see any real 'solution' short term.
 
The Corinthian said:
Agree re the Gulf states staying silent, although I believe now the Saudis have spoken out about it in fairly pro-Palestinian terms (this is off the top of my head, I’ll need to double check).

In any case, the worst thing for the US will be if Saudi and Iran find some sort of conciliation, particularly if that comes through China. And this will undoubtedly have an impact on their normalisation deal with Israel. The most intriguing thing is how nervous we’ll see the US come in the coming months.
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MBS has always been pro the Palestinian cause, but not at the expense of his vision for KSA. He keep saying Palestinians is important to him, but the main agenda seems to be:

A solution for Palestinians = End of conflict and more chances of stability and prosperity in alignment with Saudi Vision 2030

Hence the potential deal with Israel (which remarkably doesn't seem to be off the table despite the ongoing situation in Gaza). Don't forget that MBS doesn't like Hamas either and has vast knowledge about Israel's current and former actions, so this escalation of conflict probably doesn't change much if anything at all. The US and KSA have been allies for decades, which might seem absurd for some; they are built on completely different ideologies, but still see the partnership as fruitful for both sides. The absurdity was illustrated even further during Trump's reign. A known anti-Muslim acted like a teenage girl full of hormons when he was showered with the over-the-top greeting in a deeply conservative Muslim country. Biden wanted to soften the US-KSA relationship before he was elected (wanted to weaponize the whole Khashoggi case), but he also soon learned that the relationship is key for the US, probably even more so in the future. As in the nervousness you are referring to has already been shown and being working on/sorted.

I think you underestimate MBS and his main allies when it comes to their geopolitical agenda. They have already created a historically mutually dependant relationship with the US and probably would very much like to do the same with China also. Also, as there is not much to gain from them to move on from the strong US relationship to a new one with China. They have already shown themselves to not being adverse to standing up to the US in several cases and know very well that the US also are allies with main political (Qatar) and religious (Israel) rivals.
 
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africanspur said:
The question was asked by whom and answered by whom?
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It was on LBC and other media.

It was in a newspaper too.

There were statements from the school head and other community members. The police also had a statement saying no incidents had been reported and that the response of "nothing specific" was given to them too.

I posted earlier, a few days ago, about the Emmerdale actress who said similar on a TV show.
 
Raoul said:
Some grim confessions here. Predictably, some of them claim they were duped by their leadership in Qatar.

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And even worse monsters will be born from this decades long conflict. Watched a documentary about the children in Gaza and was thinking how many of them would end up becoming very dangerous people. To be born in to the misery and death that this conflict produces will create some very dangerous individuals on both sides.
 
Ødegaard said:
That was rough as hell, need a few hours to let it sink.
Not that I didn't know Hamas was evil or these things happen of course, just that listening to it is a bit heavy.
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Also predictably, they had to be bribed with free apartments and 10 grand in cash for each hostage they brought back.
 
Denis79 said:
And even worse monsters will be born from this decades long conflict. Watched a documentary about the children in Gaza and was thinking how many of them would end up becoming very dangerous people. To be born in to the misery and death that this conflict produces will create some very dangerous individuals on both sides.
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As I heard an Israeli journalist say today: You take a kitten and put it in a cage. What do you get when you open the cage after ten years? A tiger. Unfortuantely, Israel and Israelis refuse to see that.
 
Amir said:
As I heard an Israeli journalist say today: You take a kitten and put it in a cage. What do you get when you open the cage after ten years? A tiger. Unfortuantely, Israel and Israelis refuse to see that.
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This is it pretty much. It’s why this cycle won’t end for the foreseeable future.
 
Amir said:
As I heard an Israeli journalist say today: You take a kitten and put it in a cage. What do you get when you open the cage after ten years? A tiger. Unfortuantely, Israel and Israelis refuse to see that.
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What options do you think are still open? (And a wild tiger is inevitably worse than one in a cage so it’s a bad analogy!)
 
Ødegaard said:
That was rough as hell, need a few hours to let it sink.
Not that I didn't know Hamas was evil or these things happen of course, just that listening to it is a bit heavy.
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It's a grim watch but needed since we have users retweeting tweets from certain Twitter personalities that claim that Hamas aren't really the monsters that western media try to portray.

Like it's much needed users keep retweeting tweets that portray possible IDF war crimes.
 
The Corinthian said:
I haven't seen anything here - it's just a vague accusation pro-Israeli posters like to make because it's an easy deflection, shuts down conversation and gives them a get-out from discussing the real issue.

I said it in a previous post, but aimlessly labelling everything as anti-semitic gives such a disservice to those who are genuinely facing anti-semitism. I've seen posters here labelling anti-Zionist Jews as anti-semitic(!) which is bonkers, then you read the news and see how synagogues are being defaced, the France incident you mention etc. Actual Jewish people facing prejudice.


I can't imagine she's short of work covering Muslim issues in that part of the world...!
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Anti semites aren’t likely to see things as anti semitic. Higher level anti semitism doesn’t make lower level anti semitism less real. And of course Jews can be anti semitic. Breaking it down to “actual prejudice” per your definitions and “fake anti semitism“ is not exactly good.


That said, you’re pushing a narrative that all the violence is Israel’s fault and a product of Zionism and Israel’s existence, pushing Hamas viewpoints through Hamas cranks, so it’s par for the course.
 


For anyone who wants to watch the United Nations security council on the Israel - Gaza crisis.
 
Ødegaard said:
This is eerily similar to Ben Gvir's disgusting views, just from a pro-palestina side.
Calling any group of humans animals is horribly dehumanizing and a recipe for escalation.

Edit: as i am waking up, something tells me this could be satire? It is so close.
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It is, almost word for word.

Still it was written without explanation or context and brought absolutely nothing to the discussion other than rile posters up.

Terrible post.

BarstoolProphet said:
Yeah, I believe you can say that it correlates. MBS has massive ambitions for KSA (he's the main driving force behind Saudi Vision 2030); he wants KSA to emerge as a major geopolitical power and targets regional stability to increase prosperity, and he sees the theocratic regime in Iran and its proxies as the major hindrance to that. He initiated the blockage of Qatar mainly because of Qatar's links to Iran, but that kinda backfired. A major hindrance is also obviously the conflict we are discussing, hence his willingness to strike a deal with Israel and find a solution for both parties.
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Not sure about that part, unless you meant a solution between SA and Israel. His massive miscalculation as well as Israel's was that they could strike a deal while leaving the Palestinians and the Iranians in the ditch. I welcome the will of finding a basis for prosperity and stability in the region, but one thinks that it can be done without including those two in the equation, they're in for a rude awakening.
 
That_Bloke said:
"Hamas actually amended its Charter in 2017 where it settles for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
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Wikipedia says
The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy". It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It is pretty strange that the interrogator asks multiple times if the person thinks "their actions are like ISIS."
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Its not that strange given the techniques used were very similar to ISIS. The interviewees aren't obliged to answer a certain way either since neither a yes nor a no would in any way reduce their culpability. What is eye opening to me is that these guys seem to have been used as pawns (albeit despotically murderous ones) to advance the political interests of a Hamas leaders living in Qatar and one or two hidden away in Gaza bunkers.
 
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