Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[RedTiger]

Why can't the Jewish people have one (smaller than Wales) in their ancestral homeland? After the Holocaust the need for a Jewish state was even more of a necessity. Jews needed to be able to protect themselves.

You could have had the entirety of Madagascar or even a quarter of Uganda.

 

[Kaos]

Israel are the only country in the world to offer a state to the Palestinian people.

Have you had a look at these 'offers'? They're riddled with so many caveats, stipulations which at best are criminal, and at worst an absolute fallacy. No dignified person would ever accept those conditions, and Israeli hardliners know this, banking on the fact the Palestinians will rightly turn down these conditions. The status quo benefits them as much as it benefits the like of Hamas - so long as peace is off the cards, they can continue to colonise swathes of the West Bank until the Palestinians have nothing left.

 

[The Corinthian]

The excellent Hind Hassan laying down the reality of Gazan life on GMB.



Surreal footage.

 

[E-mal]

Your hypothetical country would probably get invaded and obliterated and before you had the chance to develop one, especially if you behave as if you may consider using it.

As for your second point. Israel is backed by the US. The fact that they have nukes is a distant consideration.

And I continue to wonder why North Korea has not been invaded, I dare say that Iran already has one

 

[gfactor86]

You could have had the entirety of Madagascar or even a quarter of Uganda.

But then everyone would have accused them of stealing the Ugandan's land. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people

 

[gfactor86]

When Israel was established by the British, 73% of the land was granted to Jordan. But you will never see anyone talk about this. Jordan took the majority of the land.

 

[Roane]

When Israel was established by the British, 73% of the land was granted to Jordan. But you will never see anyone talk about this. Jordan took the majority of the land.

Britain had offered freedom to independent Arab states, including Palestine and Jordan for helping against the Ottomans.

They negated on that promise.

Interesting quote for you from the Jewish Chronicle:

Had Islam not come along, Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance and Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult

 

[gfactor86]

Jordan could have given sovereignty of the West Bank to Palestinians in 1967. But instead just decided to fight with Israel and lost the West Bank altogether.

 

[Carolina Red]

Palestinians are cut from a different cloth. So much spirit in them.

Anthony Bourdain’s episode when he went into Gaza and sat down to eat with them was outstanding. That pic reminds me of it.

 

[RedTiger]

But then everyone would have accused them of stealing the Ugandan's land. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people

I don't know about that, you'd have a right considering the semetic ancestors were in Africa 20'000 years ago, also it's the location of Solomons mines.

 

[nickm]

No they weren't. They never have been.

It's in the writings and words of likes of Netanyahu that they needed a Hamas to stop certain things happening. They vested time and money into the creation of them

There have been other strains of thought on this in Israel over the years, "never have been" is incorrect. Netanyahu is finished.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Why can't the Jewish people have one (smaller than Wales) in their ancestral homeland? After the Holocaust the need for a Jewish state was even more of a necessity. Jews needed to be able to protect themselves.

From whom? Europeans?

 

[owlo]

Is it wrong to ask why this was? Why the Jews specifically over any other people's?

I was reading some stuff from before the Balfour agreement and there is a quote from a British, Jewish politician (name escapes me) who was dead against a Jewish state.

His reasoning was that once there is a Jewish state the Jews around the world would be homeless. He cited russian Jews as no longer being seen as Russian, with no protection or need for Russia to offer them rights as "true citizens". Because of a nation state. He actually predicted Jewish persecution and lack of rights and them being used as future scapegoats. Then Hitler happened.

I'm no way even suggesting a "bought it on themselves" narrative here. Or anything of the kind. Just interesting that this was a point raised during the very early discussions of a Jewish homeland and by a Jewish person.

Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.

 

[E-mal]

The Jewish people are one of the most persecuted in human history. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Spanish, Germans. Have all looked to eradicate them. Israel above any other country possibly should have Nuclear Weapons to ensure its own survival and the survival of the world's oldest religion.

With this knowledge and experience, surely they must know how it feels to be oppressed and persecuted ? In any case the Palestinians were not responsible for those persecution, so transfer of this aggression seems like the classical ''flat track bully'' and in the long run detrimental to itself

 

[Amir]

That goes without saying, but I'm hoping to see at least all the children, women and elderlies being released, no matter the reasoning behind.

There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.

So tonight, the released were two elderly women.

 

[Roane]

Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people

the peasants of Palestine were the descendants of the inhabitants of ancient Judea

David Ben Gurion and Yitzhak ben Zvi (circa 1929)

 

[Amir]

The 20's was to highlight that it was never the intention to accept a two state solution. It never has been and never will be.

Rabin certainly tried to do that in the 90s. And as I said, Olmert tried to negotiate around 2007-2009. Whether it will ever happen again, I don't know.

 

[owlo]

There were talks about the release of 50 people today, but they seemed to have failed for now.

So tonight, the released were two elderly women.

Scary that we don’t see their motives clearly. Not sure what delaying the invasion gains them. Perhaps more Palestinian civcas helps the cause. Or perhaps setting up for urban combat.

 

[nickm]

You could have had the entirety of Madagascar or even a quarter of Uganda.

I can't help but feel in these debates, people aren't really debating the location, but the legitimacy of the founding. (For the record, Israel absolutely has a right to exist and the arguments about it's founding are pointless.)

 

[Halftrack]

Israel was prepared to offer it 20 or so years ago.

There is no point Israel offering something that they know Hamas is uninterested in. There is no two state solution.

Hamas want a one state solution - ie the end of Israel.

Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.

 

[Amir]

Also, how is the Israeli public view going now? Less support for a ground operation? More focus on releasing hostages?

The public has probably softened somewhat. Two weeks ago, a ground operation was the focus - no doubt fueled by people feeling a need for revenge. Now that the abducted have names, faces, stories and families, some people's stance has certainly changed. Not all, though. And the bottom line remains: Israel cannot move on knowing that the thread of Hamas remains just accross the border.

 

[Roane]

Rabin certainly tried to do that in the 90s. And as I said, Olmert tried to negotiate around 2007-2009. Whether it will ever happen again, I don't know.

Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace

 

[Amir]

Scary that we don’t see their motives clearly. Not sure what delaying the invasion gains them. Perhaps more Palestinian civcas helps the cause. Or perhaps setting up for urban combat.

Or maybe they feel that as time goes by, the memories of the October 7 masscare will fade and people will focus more and more on the deaths in Gaza, with international pressure on Israel to avoid a ground assault.

 

[owlo]

Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.

The offer to Arafat was the ballpark maximum possible. Some possibilities around a Jerusalem neutrality zone but I can’t see how he could have been offered much more?

 

[owlo]

Or maybe they feel that as time goes by, the memories of the October 7 masscare will fade and people will focus more and more on the deaths in Gaza, with international pressure on Israel to avoid a ground assault.

Do you think they are that ignorant to how Israel works when it is hurt so badly though? I believe they know the ground invasion is inevitable now, Israel have no other option. There’s no way that Israel “let’s this go“

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Amir]

Maybe I'm cynical but the killing of Muslims by Baruch Goldstein and his grave becoming a monument of a hero, Hamas retaliation and Likud taking over from Rabin's assassination is too much of a coincidence of wanting peace

You're forgetting the terror attacks in Israel during Rabin's time as PM and Peres's time as Rabin's successor before the election which Netanyahu unfortunately won in 1996. That made a huge difference in public opinion and in the polls.

Goldstein's grave has indeed become some sort of sick hero monument, but the people who view him like that are a small minority.

 

[nickm]

Hamas represents a third of the Palestinian population, and the Israeli offer has been a joke designed to be unacceptable to the Palestinians.

The point is that Hamas would reject it, even if hypothetically israel offered it. All those people who think it is a solution but Israeli intransigence is the problem, don't seem to consider Hamas don't want it anyway. And there is no peace without Hamas, a third or not.

 

[Amir]

Do you think they are that ignorant to how Israel works when it is hurt so badly though? I believe they know the ground invasion is inevitable now, Israel have no other option. There’s no way that Israel “let’s this go“

I don't know what they know and think. They're not exactly high on options anyway, and it does seem like their stance has at least delayed the Israeli attack, so who knows.

There does appear to be some hesitancy from the Israeli side, possibly due to US pressure to allow time for negotiations to release people.

 

[The Corinthian]

Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.

Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.

 

[frostbite]

Hamas are a symptom, not the cause of the hostilities between the people. They've only been around for 30 years.

Would you extend the same classification to settlers who terrorise, murder and steal the homes of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank?

The Nazis were also not the cause but the symptom in 1942. Now, we need to eliminate the symptom and then fix the cause, like Germany was fixed after 1945.

 

[NotThatSoph]

No

You seem to have missed the answer to your question, Redcafe's notification system can be a bit finicky sometimes.

Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?

 

[VorZakone]

Netanyahu playing politics against his generals?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

You talk like they are subhuman.

The reality is that they are a broken oppressed people who have all the reasons in the world to hate Israel. Hamas is almost inevitable in the circumstances. They accept being slowly strangled as a people or fight. If you don't allow that fight to be legislative you make violence inevitable. Hate itself is not a crime, because sonetimes it's the natural response. It's where it goes that is the problem and if has to go somewhere.

Israel has all the power and if you insist on the clumsy Nazi comparison it is there it belongs. They have the will, they have the choice and thegly have a militarised state. I would argue they choose murder from a larger menu of choice than any form of Palestinian militants have or will ever have.

Popper would have classed their apartheid state as intolerable intolerance.

I am much more tolerant of David than Goliath, almost always.

Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?

In another scene Hamas attackers entered a house and spoke to a girl hiding under a table. “After some talking back and forth they shoot and kill her,” tweeted Jotam Confino, one of the correspondents at the screening. “Hard to say how old she is but looks like 7-9 years old.”

Another scene showed a father and his two sons, aged approximately seven and nine, running in their underwear to what appeared to be a bomb shelter. A Hamas attacker threw a grenade, killing the man. The boys emerge bloodied and run. “Dad’s dead, it wasn’t a prank,” one shouts. “I know, I saw it,” replies his brother, later screaming: “Why am I alive?”

There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?

 

[nickm]

Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?



There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?

I agree.

It is why some of the reactions to this, along the lines of this being about justice for Palestinians, make me very uneasy, and I can see why so many Jewish people are so uneasy.

The violence and cruelty make this something else. I can't disagree with those who have called it a pogrom.

 

[Roane]

Of course it’s wrong to ask it. It’s anti semitic as feck. Your whole post is.

Look I'm happy to delete the post if it is deemed anti semetic by the mods etc.

But I would question why is it anto semetic?

I was responding to a guy who said the Jews have been persecuted throughout history by different countries, people etc. I'm Muslim and there is a mistrust over the last few years lie I've never known. But I would say Al Qaeda, Isis etc have been the source of that.

This is a people who have lived and worked and been part of communities all over the world. Yet there is factual history of atrocities they have faced. I think it's reasonable at least ponder why the Jews. Throughout history.

The rest of my post is based on actual conversations at the time and by a Jewish person.

 

[owlo]

I don't know what they know and think. They're not exactly high on options anyway, and it does seem like their stance has at least delayed the Israeli attack, so who knows.

There does appear to be some hesitancy from the Israeli side, possibly due to US pressure to allow time for negotiations to release people.

Don’t think the Israeli government have a choice at the end of the day though. This month or next, they are going in. It’s a delay only tactic.

Screaming everything is anti semitic doesn't make it anti semitic.

Screaming everything is anti semitic?

 

[Roane]

You're forgetting the terror attacks in Israel during Rabin's time as PM and Peres's time as Rabin's successor before the election which Netanyahu unfortunately won in 1996. That made a huge difference in public opinion and in the polls.

Goldstein's grave has indeed become some sort of sick hero monument, but the people who view him like that are a small minority.

A minority? It's a shrine recieving thousands of "pilgrims" a year.

The original monument was taken down and there is an epitaph now isn't there built by the IDF?

 

[Carolina Red]

But then everyone would have accused them of stealing the Ugandan's land. Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people

For the umpteenth time…

It’s the homeland of the Canaanite people.

 

[The Corinthian]

Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?



There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?

It happens both ways - the IDF and settlers are as bad as Hamas when it comes to barbarity. I'm not going to post the videos and clips I have of Gazan babies charred and blackened due to Israel's actions over the last couple of weeks, but that is the reality.

Here's a post I made a while back about some of the barbaric actions carried out by Israelis/IDF/settlers:

Abu Khdeir (16 years old at the time of death):

autopsy conducted at the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute in Tel Aviv revealed that the teen had soot in his lungs, indicating that he was alive and breathing when he was set alight. He had been forced to swallow petrol beforehand.[51][52][53][54] The burns affected 90% of his body, and it appeared he had sustained head injuries from a beating and had been repeatedly hit in the head with a sharp object,[6][16][55] which at the time was alleged to have been a tire iron,[56] but is now alleged to have been a wrench

Israeli settlers killing a baby:

Right-wing Jewish extremist settlers near Nablus firebombed a Palestinian home on Thursday night, starting a fire which destroyed the house and burned a baby to death, as well as severely burning the baby’s four-year-old brother, mother and father.
The baby who was killed in the attack was about 18 months old. He was identified as Ali Saad Dawabsha.

Here's the aftermath of that incident:

This is precisely what Israeli Jewish settlers were doing yesterday, outside the court in Lod. “Ali was burned, where is Ali? Ali is on the grill!”, they chanted, in reference to the 18-month old baby Ali Dawbsheh, who was burnt alive by Jewish terrorists in the West Bank town of Duma in 2015. Ali’s mother Riham and father Saad died of their wounds a few weeks later. Of the family of four, only 5-year-old Ahmad survived the arson with severe burns.

Routine torture of Palestinians:

One major case, in which 20 men from Beita and Huwara were taken from their homes, gagged and bound hand and foot and then had their limbs broken with clubs,

Doing so with impunity:

people, including children, could be smeared with vomit or urine, be confined in a "coffin", be suspended by the wrists; be denied food and water or access to toilets, or be threatened to have their sisters, wives or mothers raped.[19] Methods, including torture, practiced also on Palestinian children were reported to persist with Amnesty International stating in 2018 that though over 1,000 complaints have been filed regarding these practices since 2001, "no criminal investigations were opened

Here's a report of how 40% of Palestinian children detained are sexually abused with virtually all tortured when in detainment:
40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured (bennorton.com)

When people say they're as bad as each other, they really are.