Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[B. Munich]

That difference being "I care" and "I don't care"

I would even go further. One side is doing everything to maximize civilian casualties while the other is trying to minimize innocent deaths.

 

[Badunk]

Posters who complain about the scrutiny placed on the actions of Israel should be aware that "other countries do it, too" is no defence. If it was, nobody would be convicted of any crime ever.

 

[Pintu]

I would even go further. One side is doing everything to maximize civilian casualties while the other is trying to minimize innocent deaths.

By cutting water, food and essential medicines… Do you really trust an Israeli government led by Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich cares about minimising “innocent death”?

 

[JPRouve]

Don’t want to blow smoke up your arse but you’re an incredible resource for this thread. I learn something new from almost every one of your posts. Keep it up!

You can absolutely blow smoke up his backside. 2cents is one of the best source on the entire internet when it comes to the Middle East whether it is about geopolitics or history.

 

[moses]

Don’t want to blow smoke up your arse but you’re an incredible resource for this thread. I learn something new from almost every one of your posts. Keep it up!

Yeah, an absolute treasure.

 

[RedC]

Thought this was a great read and spot on.


Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT

Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.

What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.

During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.

Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.

This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.

In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"

What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.

We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."

Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

What a load of utter nonsense.

 

[Amar__]

Didn't Israel bomb Gaza hospitals and mosques for years before? Why is it so important for pro Israelis here to prove that this time it's not their bomb that bombed that hospital? That's not going to make it any less for people who have followed Israel's atrocities over the years there.

Also, if they did, why does it matter so much to disprove how many people were in that hospital, from defending Israel POV? If they bombed it, I am sure they didn't care how many people were inside, 50 or 500. Actually, if they wanted to do it, then they probably hoped it would be as more people as possible, considering the level of this war. It seems like some are trying to minimize the impact by saying it was "just" 50 people instead of 500. Isn't that pretty much equal to other side increasing the numbers?

 

[Drizzle]

Posters who complain about the scrutiny placed on the actions of Israel should be aware that "other countries do it, too" is no defence. If it was, nobody would be convicted of any crime ever.

It's not a defence.

But it's interesting nonetheless and a legitimate question when the world is aflame with hate. Why the vitriolic demonisation of Israel and not other countries that do equally bad if not worse things?

Maybe a question for a different discussion, because it's true that it's not a defence if Israel's actions itself.

 

[VorZakone]

Didn't Israel bomb Gaza hospitals and mosques for years before? Why is it so important for pro Israelis here to prove that this time it's not their bomb that bombed that hospital? That's not going to make it any less for people who have followed Israel's atrocities over the years there.

Also, if they did, why does it matter so much to disprove how many people were in that hospital, from defending Israel POV? If they bombed it, I am sure they didn't care how many people were inside, 50 or 500. Actually, if they wanted to do it, then they probably hoped it would be as more people as possible, considering the level of this war. It seems like some are trying to minimize the impact by saying it was "just" 50 people instead of 500. Isn't that pretty much equal to other side increasing the numbers?

Are you asking why it's important to make sure we don't jump to conclusions based on limited evidence?

 

[moses]

It's not a defence.

But it's interesting nonetheless and a legitimate question when the world is aflame with hate. Why the vitriolic demonisation of Israel and not other countries that do equally bad if not worse things?

Maybe a question for a different discussion, because it's true that it's not a defence if Israel's actions itself.

From an Irish viewpoint, Israel is the only consistent rogue state whose actions our government won't condemn.

 

[Drizzle]

Didn't Israel bomb Gaza hospitals and mosques for years before? Why is it so important for pro Israelis here to prove that this time it's not their bomb that bombed that hospital?

Because this incident was used as a call to arms and inflamed an already dire situation to a different level. Synagogues got burned down, embassies attacked, peace talks called off.

It's not just' pro Israelis' that seek the actual truth about this incident.

I'll turn it round. Why was it such a horrific atrocity the night it happened that the world was in uproar about it... But now suddenly people like your good self are complaining that people are analysing it, and coming to a different conclusion?

 

[moses]

Are you asking why it's important to make sure we don't jump to conclusions based on limited evidence?

No I think the point is of all the bombs that have killed people why is this one getting so much focus? It's not the only bomb that has killed Palestinians.

 

[JPRouve]

It's not a defence.

But it's interesting nonetheless and a legitimate question when the world is aflame with hate. Why the vitriolic demonisation of Israel and not other countries that do equally bad if not worse things?

Maybe a question for a different discussion, because it's true that it's not a defence if Israel's actions itself.

The question would legitimate if Israel wasn't the most believed and supported side. Or if Hamas wasn't already and forever be officially considered a terrorist group.

 

[RedDevil@84]

It's not a defence.

It is whataboutism. At least that's what was said when people talked about Israel in the Russia-Ukraine thread.

 

[Amar__]

Are you asking why it's important to make sure we don't jump to conclusions based on limited evidence?

What's the conclusion?

 

[Raven]

It's not a defence.

But it's interesting nonetheless and a legitimate question when the world is aflame with hate. Why the vitriolic demonisation of Israel and not other countries that do equally bad if not worse things?

Maybe a question for a different discussion, because it's true that it's not a defence if Israel's actions itself.

What's with the whataboutism?

 

[Drizzle]

From an Irish viewpoint, Israel is the only consistent rogue state whose actions our government won't condemn.

You're talking about governments, my point was wider, to quote myself:

I think we need to make a distinction. Israel is treated with kid gloves by allied governments and gets away with all kinds of shit as a result.

However in the court of global public opinion, Israel is demonised beyond any other country. Pigs, scum, Nazis, filth etc, you see it everywhere. What other country has this? That's where the comparisons to objectively worse offenders like Syria, Saudi, China etc are valid.

 

[Drizzle]

What's with the whataboutism?

I literally said it wasn't a defence, and also suggested it was worth a separate discussion, so don't play dumb.

 

[VorZakone]

No I think the point is of all the bombs that have killed people why is this one getting so much focus? It's not the only bomb that has killed Palestinians.

I mean, that question isn't hard to answer. The situation is much more tense and much more in the spotlight than in previous years and the initially touted figure of 500 dead was a big shock. So naturally, this event got more attention.

 

[2cents]

Don’t want to blow smoke up your arse but you’re an incredible resource for this thread. I learn something new from almost every one of your posts. Keep it up!

You can absolutely blow smoke up his backside. 2cents is one of the best source on the entire internet when it comes to the Middle East whether it is about geopolitics or history.

Yeah, an absolute treasure.

Appreciate it guys, especially with how depressed and angry I’m feeling right now. But of course we’re blessed on the Cafe with so many quality contributors with different insights, present company included. Given the magnitude of what has happened, this thread could have been an absolute train wreck, and probably would have been in previous years (not that I’m putting it down to the absence of a particular poster). But it’s been mostly quality discussion, and a credit to the forum.

 

[VorZakone]

What's the conclusion?

That we need independent organisations on the ground to do better analysis. Based on OSINT, some say it was a failed rocket launch. Al Jazeera disagrees.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Why the vitriolic demonisation of Israel and not other countries that do equally bad if not worse things?

Israel and its supporters have created the standard that the country is superior to others, behaves differently, constantly contrasting it against the rest of the Middle East, etc. They set a high standard and then fail to uphold it, so the country is much more susceptible to criticisms of 'hypocrisy', etc.

 

[Drizzle]

This is a standard that Israel and its supporters have created. It's commonly argued that Israel is not like other countries; it is much better.

I am trying to understand this logic. So Israel is demonised more than other countries that do worse things... Because they set higher standards for themselves? Or lower? Help me out here.

 

[Red in STL]

I saw a bizzarely accurate 471 on Sky or the like at one point.

That 471 was in this thread was it not?

 

[Amar__]

That we need independent organisations on the ground to do better analysis. Based on OSINT, some say it was a failed rocket launch. Al Jazeera disagrees.

You won't get that, because the only thing that is proved time and time again is that pro western media is ridiculous to fight, because Israel pay them too much. Much more than anyone else would have the power to pay them in other direction.

 

[The Corinthian]

I’d love nothing more than the death count to be significantly lower than what’s been reported, but I’d love to know how a European Intelligence official came to this conclusion given no one’s allowed in or out.

 

[Buster15]

Surely it's fair to say that the balance of neutral opinion is now that it was probably a failed IJ rocket. Each side then divides according to their prior sympathies.

Yes that is my view. Certainly. But you only have to look at some of the posts to see that some still believe that it was an Israeli attack.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Buster15]

Appreciate it guys, especially with how depressed and angry I’m feeling right now. But of course we’re blessed on the Cafe with so many quality contributors with different insights, present company included. Given the magnitude of what has happened, this thread could have been an absolute train wreck, and probably would have been in previous years (not that I’m putting it down to the absence of a particular poster). But it’s been mostly quality discussion, and a credit to the forum.

Well said. And I echo this.

 

[JPRouve]

I’d love nothing more than the death count to be significantly lower than what’s been reported, but I’d love to know how a European Intelligence official came to this conclusion given no one’s allowed in or out.

I saw a reporter mentioning it on one of the french news channels and this figure was prefaced with the idea that they have no idea. The source for lack of better word was conveying the idea that none of the figures are confrmed or based on solid info.

 

[owlo]

I’d love nothing more than the death count to be significantly lower than what’s been reported, but I’d love to know how a European Intelligence official came to this conclusion given no one’s allowed in or out.

It's just a guesstimate based on the blast photos and casualties in similar situations. 10 is probably too low considering people were sheltering in that copse/grass next to the far park. Nothing particularly scientific about it, same as when I quoted 50~ before. It's nowhere near 500 though.

 

[Red in STL]

I’d love nothing more than the death count to be significantly lower than what’s been reported, but I’d love to know how a European Intelligence official came to this conclusion given no one’s allowed in or out.

They have access to satellite imagery that most of us don't

 

[Amar__]

If 11 000 buildings were destroyed or damaged, believing that just 900 people died is insane, unfortunately.

In the war Sarajevo for example, around 1000 buildings were damaged, and we had around 10 000 casualities, and that was 30 years ago when weapon quality was lesser than it was now by big margin.

 

[owlo]

They have access to satellite imagery that most of us don't

Extra granularity only. Not much use in this usage.

 

[The Corinthian]

I saw a reporter mentioning it on one of the french news channels and this figure was prefaced with the idea that they have no idea. The source for lack of better word was conveying the idea that none of the figures are confrmed or based on solid info.

Thank you.

It's just a guesstimate based on the blast photos and casualties in similar situations. 10 is probably too low considering people were sheltering in that copse/grass next to the far park. Nothing particularly scientific about it, same as when I quoted 50~ before. It's nowhere near 500 though.

If it’s all guesswork, I wouldn’t rely on it. And before you accuse me of hypocrisy - I’ll apply the same principle on the Gaza figure that they’ve reported 471 with little validity as well.

They have access to satellite imagery that most of us don't

What are you basing this on? Has the European Intelligence Official said this? Can satellite imagery look at multi-storey buildings and differentiate between a patient in a bed and a dead body?

 

[Buster15]

Thought this was a great read and spot on.


Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT

Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.

What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.

During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.

Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.

This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.

In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"

What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.

We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."

Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

A well researched and well presented article which goes to demonstrate the damage Hamas has been and continues to do to Gaza.
And importantly, none of this is the fault of Israel, although I don't doubt some actually will do.

 

[JPRouve]

If 11 000 buildings were destroyed or damaged, believing that just 900 people died is insane, unfortunately.

In the war Sarajevo for example, around 1000 buildings were damaged, and we had around 10 000 casualities, and that was 30 years ago when weapon quality was lesser than it was now by big margin.

We are also talking about the most densely populated area in the world, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[VorZakone]

This is more than the figure given by that European official.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Pintu]