Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

do.ob said:
What is it with this old lady? Do you expect there to be one law for Jews and one for everyone else? The pro Palestine demonstration had been rejected, so they cleared everyone, who showed up to protest anyway. Regardless of religion, gender, age or ethnicity. Like do you expect the police to come up to her, verify that she is indeed Jewish and then make an exception for her? It's such a baffling point to make. People at the demonstrations break the law, in particular with regards to antisemitism and so the police and courts refuse to sign off on further demonstrations.

And what is it with trying to turn this into some point about Germany as a whole. Are you even aware that there have been plenty of demonstrations permitted outside of Berlin? I assume, because people there don't find it so hard to follow the law.

And what about Saskia Esken embarrassing herself in a tweet? Should I start to draw conclusions about the UK's state of mind based on Corbyn?

And how does the AfD represent Germany's national maxim, when they've only been around for 10 years and never held a government post? They are pretty aligned with US republicans, so the answer is probably that they are regurgitating what they see in their bubble. They also seem to hate Arabs more than anything in the world - Covid aside, most of their topics seem to center around refugees from the Middle East and Africa.


You don't need to try and read tea leaves by the way or try to draw conclusions from staged twitter videos and thorough cursory google searches. There's plenty of official statements on the government's position. For example this one:
https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/federal-chancellor-israel-visit-2230900
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I explained why I was focusing on those 2 events here. To repeat for a third time, I expect Germany will arrest or beat up Arabs who are pro-Palestine, and that would not be noteworthy. But since all this is in the guise of correcting a massive historical atrocity, it might be worthwhile to listen, even those in the minority. Apart from those two events, there was a third one where the Berlin police denied a permit for a Jewish protest against Israel in the expectation of anti-semitism. Is there any self-awareness at all?

The point about AfD wasn't to say they are representative (though they are undeniably growing), it was to say that there is zero contradiction between very hard support for Israel, and for opposition to "collective guilt" and support for fascism. So again, this 1-1 link where the line is from renouncing the Holocaust to Israel support, it needs a lot of interrogation, if one can be against remembering the "cause" but be for supporting the "effect".

I do know a little about the German stance. The first post I made in this thread about Germany included a quote from the German government's attitude to Palestinian civilians (hundred civilian deaths are not worthy of consideration).
Multiple thousands have been killed in Gaza. There is a massive shortage of the basics of life. There was so little water days ago they couldn't fecking pee. Can you imagine. The humane alternative being offered is ethnic cleansing. Multiple Israeli ministers have said that civilians and children in Gaza don't functionally exist. This "maybe some day some supplies from Egypt" response from the civilised world, (which is I guess what you wanted to show me in that government statement) is an atrocity, in line with what these nations have done to call themselves civilised in the first place.
 
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do.ob said:
This is what went on there yesterday:


This was how it looked the day before.


Guy on redcafe: evil police are oppressing peaceful protesters.
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What happened yesterday in a different location is pretty irrelevant.

It doesn't change the fact that police are literally stamping out candles at a peace vigil today, and manhandling people doing nothing there. If the police's behaviour is so unnecessarily extreme and overly brutal now, I'm genuinely not surprised people react.
 
do.ob said:
This is what went on there yesterday:


This was how it looked the day before.


Guy on redcafe: evil police are oppressing peaceful protesters.
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Not sure about the ground situation, but your line of argument doesn't make sense. Every protest needs to be validated on its own and action taken accordingly.
 
do.ob said:
This is what went on there yesterday:


This was how it looked the day before.


Guy on redcafe: evil police are oppressing peaceful protesters.
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Looks like mobs are resorting to destruction and violence, which would give the cops ample reason to crack down on this sort of thing.
 
The Corinthian said:
What happened yesterday in a different location is pretty irrelevant.

It doesn't change the fact that police are literally stamping out candles at a peace vigil today, and manhandling people doing nothing there. If the police's behaviour is so unnecessarily extreme and overly brutal now, I'm genuinely not surprised people react.
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Please tell me what location this is.
 
The Corinthian said:
That's fair, but I don't think his view on the hospital strike isn't a valid pov.
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Him being a weapons expert is very debatable though, which is what the original article claims. He seems a very dubious source, so I'd probably be cautious him being quoted as an expert.
 


If this is true; then Russia (who pretends to care for ME Christians) will get angry at Israel… This could be good news for Ukraine in the long run.
 


This is quite interesting - if anyone wanted the cliff notes, the Archbishop says that:
a) They received an Israeli strike to begin with that damaged two floors (3 days before the blast)
b) They received specific warnings to evacuate on Saturday, Sunday, Monday (blast was on Tuesday, and this interview is on Wednesday)
c) Also mentions that 15 other hospitals were contacted and told to evacuate
 
Lash said:
Him being a weapons expert is very debatable though, which is what the original article claims. He seems a very dubious source, so I'd probably be cautious him being quoted as an expert.
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It’s obvious nonsense. Sounds like an ex low ranking grunt with a litany of terrible opinions on a range of topics.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Not sure about the ground situation, but your line of argument doesn't make sense. Every protest needs to be validated on its own and action taken accordingly.
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At that particular location people were openly celebrating after Hamas attacks and the streets were burning the last few days, 65 policemen were injured. But sure, every illegal protest needs to be validated on its own and the police are the bad guys here and should just wait until a large enough mob has formed, before they take action.
 
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Raoul said:
It’s obvious nonsense. Sounds like an ex low ranking grunt with a litany of terrible opinions on a range of topics.
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Based on what I've briefly read, I'd have to agree, but was trying to be tempered as I have no idea who he is. I don't see anything that gives him the credentials as a weapons expert, but I can't claim to have looked to deeply.
 
Pintu said:


If this is true; then Russia (who pretends to care for ME Christians) will get angry at Israel… This could be good news for Ukraine in the long run.
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One of the survivors:

 
Netanyahu & Hamas are burning everything they can… Scary times.

I hope they’d already evacuated the personnel…

Attack on the Israeli embassy in Bahreïn:



Edit: this seems to be some unrelated old footage.
 
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I don't think we can have it both ways, it's obviously a matter of great import who bombed that hospital judging by how intense and heated the debate has been. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption Israel might have bombed it given their history and how densely packed the battlefield is but we can't just handwave a "well, anyway, if not this one they'll bomb another" (even if it is sadly, not unlikely).
I'm not thinking of anyone in particular but I have to agree that to an extent following the discussion on Twitter there's a lot of goalpost shifting on both sides, including some pundits I would theoretically be sympathetic with.

Yes I wholeheartedly agree there's a forest behind that tree, but it's obviously important to keep facts as straight as possible and keep Israel to account on what deserves it (there's been plenty in the past and currently).
 
Pintu said:
Netanyahu & Hamas are buring everything in they can… Scary times.

I hope they’d already evacuated the personnel…

Attack on the Israeli embassy in Bahreïn:

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Middle Easterners are great when it comes to picking music for propaganda videos. You really get the emotion they try to convey.
 
Raoul said:
Let's not spam up the page with off topic tweets just to prove whether or not this guy is someone worth listening to.
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What do you mean? I think everyone in this thread, including me, has to know that if you post dubious sources that you'll receive pushback.
 
Zlatattack said:
Israel defending itself in the West Bank against children again.

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Sorry but these Twitter clips are as reliable as the ITK tweets in the transfer period.
This video might have been taken anytime, anywhere and there isn't even picture of the shooters.

Totally worthless piece of rubbish.
 
the hea said:
Jackson Hinkle for fecks sake, some people are really showing their true colors in this thread.
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Regardless of the person whose twitter bio that is from, the video is real. I've seen it posted from multiple other people who aren't right wing nuts.
 
Drizzle said:
Sorry Amar one more point on this if I may. If you're questioning why this incident has any more impact than others, then we only have to look at the reactions from this very forum when the news came out:







I'm not calling out these posters by the way, just clarifying why this was particularly emotive. So if, by some chance it actually wasn't Israel who did this, then I think it's fair enough to point it out. This really was a different level of atrocity. Only problem was, it probably wasn't Israel and may not have been an atrocity.

And by the way, fair play to the Caf posters who at the time cautioned patience around the evidence.
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Erm what?
 
We're at a point now where it is entirely legitimate to say and suggest that Israel is a racist and terrorist state.
 
Tibs said:
We're at a point now where it is entirely legitimate to say and suggest that Israel is a racist and terrorist state.
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It's been a legitimate thing to say for decades.

Israel is built on a racist ideology and uses terrorist methods to achieve their goals.
 
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Beachryan said:
Ok. What about the US Department of Defense? Oh wait, sorry they're in with the Israelis and Iraq and yeah.
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An argument isn't discredited simply by restating it in a snarky voice.

If your argument hinges on asking people who've been witnessing America and Israel govts. lie their whole lives to take those govts. at their word, don't bother. It's not going to work.
 
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Probably belongs in the hypernormalisation thread, but I'm lost for words on the state of this.
 
I follow this thread but don't post much as I feel I am far less clued up on this than most of the posters here but something completely baffles me.

As far as I understand, Israel's reasoning behind the airstrikes and justification of killing Palestinian civilians has always been that Hamas hides within them, using them as human shields. They are collateral in this war. I don't agree with that at all but it seems this reason has been given. Then why has the West Bank accumulated over fifty deaths by Israeli forces? Hamas are not there, yet that area is being affected too.

Not gonna go into why but I have a very keen interest in the West Bank and would love someone to point me towards an article or video that explains why there are Israeli attacks on the West Bank?
 
Lash said:


Probably belongs in the hypernormalisation thread, but I'm lost for words on the state of this.
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It's disturbing how they do this repeatedly and can treat it like it's a video game where they're unlocking celebrity characters to help them on their quest.
 
SilentWitness said:
It's disturbing how they do this repeatedly and can treat it like it's a video game where they're unlocking celebrity characters to help them on their quest.
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It's surreal. It's unabashed propaganda, from a Twitter account that represents a state, trying to leverage Taylor swifts popularity.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I follow this thread but don't post much as I feel I am far less clued up on this than most of the posters here but something completely baffles me.

As far as I understand, Israel's reasoning behind the airstrikes and justification of killing Palestinian civilians has always been that Hamas hides within them, using them as human shields. They are collateral in this war. I don't agree with that at all but it seems this reason has been given. Then why has the West Bank accumulated over fifty deaths by Israeli forces? Hamas are not there, yet that area is being affected too.

Not gonna go into why but I have a very keen interest in the West Bank and would love someone to point me towards an article or video that explains why there are Israeli attacks on the West Bank?
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The West Bank is sorta the elephant in the room for Israelis. Bassem Youssef on Piers Morgan's show said it well: Imagine a world without Hamas, that is the West Bank.

So why do Palestinians get killed there? Trigger-happy Israeli forces who aren't held accountable by the Israeli government and attacks by Israeli settlers.
 
Lash said:


Probably belongs in the hypernormalisation thread, but I'm lost for words on the state of this.
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They’re really clutching at straws here. As if getting swifties on their side will help the legitimacy of their cause.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I follow this thread but don't post much as I feel I am far less clued up on this than most of the posters here but something completely baffles me.

As far as I understand, Israel's reasoning behind the airstrikes and justification of killing Palestinian civilians has always been that Hamas hides within them, using them as human shields. They are collateral in this war. I don't agree with that at all but it seems this reason has been given. Then why has the West Bank accumulated over fifty deaths by Israeli forces? Hamas are not there, yet that area is being affected too.

Not gonna go into why but I have a very keen interest in the West Bank and would love someone to point me towards an article or video that explains why there are Israeli attacks on the West Bank?
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IDF, members of the Knesset or the government routinely tells you that civilians aren't innocent and heavily imply that they are logical military targets. In the West Bank as far as I know IDF generally gets involved in the killing or injuring as bodyguards for the jewish extremists that are a relevant part of settlers, their goal is to take as much land as possible from palestinians and they have the support of the far right and Likud.
 
Raoul said:
They’re really clutching at straws here. As if getting swifties on their side will help the legitimacy of their cause.
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Would love to have heard the pitch to the government on how this is going to help. Absolute catastrophe these are the people leading Israel.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I follow this thread but don't post much as I feel I am far less clued up on this than most of the posters here but something completely baffles me.

As far as I understand, Israel's reasoning behind the airstrikes and justification of killing Palestinian civilians has always been that Hamas hides within them, using them as human shields. They are collateral in this war. I don't agree with that at all but it seems this reason has been given. Then why has the West Bank accumulated over fifty deaths by Israeli forces? Hamas are not there, yet that area is being affected too.

Not gonna go into why but I have a very keen interest in the West Bank and would love someone to point me towards an article or video that explains why there are Israeli attacks on the West Bank?
Click to expand...
JPRouve said:
IDF, members of the Knesset or the government routinely tells you that civilians aren't innocent and heavily imply that they are logical military targets. In the West Bank as far as I know IDF generally gets involved in the killing or injuring as bodyguards for the jewish extremists that are a relevant part of settlers, their goal is to take as much land as possible from palestinians and they have the support of the far right and Likud.
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Just to add to this - Ben Gvir has recently provided arms to settlers: Ben Gvir's ministry to buy 10,000 guns for civilian security teams | The Times of Israel which has led to a rise in violence and deaths to Palestinians living there.

Oddly enough, no mention of this (West Bank Palestinians being killed) from Piers, or any other Israeli discussing the conflict.

 
Missions launched at Israel from Yemen, intercepted by the US Navy…. Seems like a precursor to much more US involvement
 
Raoul said:
Conflict with Iran seems inevitable since their proxies doing all the agitation.
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Iran doing what the Argentines did in 1982, in the midst of severe social unrest?

Sure it can't be that bad for Iran as an outcome since it worked well for Argentina. Oh wait...
 
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