Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Lash]

Watched one documentary few days ago, and yes you are correct and yes they also really believe it will help bring Jesus back.

Fascinating (well, not sure that's the right word) is this world in which we are living.

What always fascinates me, is that people who believe in stuff like this, are also extremely rich and successful in everyday life. The amount of money people have to spend on week long QAnon and flat earth conferences, blows my mind.

 

[Plastic Evra]

Really?? I've got very curious about how the American right wing can appease the antisemites and islamophobes in their base. Hadn't thought about this angle. How does it work?

Alex Jones (which is as good a barometer as any of the American insanity soup) was threading that line in his recent shows covering the attacks. He made it about his personal grievances (namely Jewish fans accosting him at the airport but not writing at the ADL to defend him ? Literally said "What are you doing to help me lately") but he reverted back to isolationism (leave us -"white Christians" left unsaid- alone) which I think is accurate : Please stay over there and kill each other far away from me. Which is also the only way you can pander to Evangelicals (who only see Israel as a necessary step to Jesus second coming, and Jews as tools) and Patriot types ranting about the ZOG.
Had plenty of hateful things to say for all but definitely the racism against Muslims is a lot more visceral, probably because they're more numerous (and more brown).

 

[moses]

Really?? I've got very curious about how the American right wing can appease the antisemites and islamophobes in their base. Hadn't thought about this angle. How does it work?

A lot of it is Apocalyptic and Rapture based. So from that really anything is possible.

 

[Lash]

'The Family' on Netflix is a great watch, it discusses how deep religion has pervaded our government.

I forgot about that, watched it in lockdown. Was a surreal watch.

 

[calodo2003]

There's like ten different threads that would already fit into. At the very least:

US Politics
The New low (I.) Q. Republicans and Ted Cruz
The Culture Wars
The Maga Cult & Fascism
2021 American Civil War
The White Supremacist Terrorist Threat

I'm aware, just wishful thinking on my part.

 

[calodo2003]

I think you might be a good candidate.

It was a tad facetious, @nimic correctly points out that we have a plethora of threads for such posting.

 

[Revan]

Dunno if posted before but this was such a dark humour interview:

 

[moses]

It was a tad facetious, @nimic correctly points out that we have a plethora of threads for such posting.

Don't mind him. I want one on the religious right. He's zero fun.

 

[The Firestarter]

Dunno if posted before but this was such a dark humour interview:

Around 15 times in this thread I believe.

 

[Raoul]

Around 15 times in this thread I believe.

Which is not a good sign whether posters are actually following the thread and not simply scampering in here to post the latest interesting tweet in their feed.

 

[The Firestarter]

Which is not a good sign whether posters are actually following the thread and not simply scampering in here to post the latest interesting tweet in their feed.

Slow mode for twitter postings (think emoji)

 

[hasanejaz88]

I suppose there won't be any retaliation or widespread condemnation for supporting war crimes against Palestinians right? I can only imagine what the reaction would've been had someone defended Hamas' atrocities.

 

[Raoul]

I suppose there won't be any retaliation or widespread condemnation for supporting war crimes against Palestinians right? I can only imagine what the reaction would've been had someone defended Hamas' atrocities.

Retaliation for what ? She's a comedian expressing an opinion, just like the guy in the Piers Morgan video (who is apparently based in the US as well).

 

[Santos J]

Things seem to be ramping up a bit on the other side of Israel with Hezbollah now

 

[Jim Beam]

What always fascinates me, is that people who believe in stuff like this, are also extremely rich and successful in everyday life. The amount of money people have to spend on week long QAnon and flat earth conferences, blows my mind.

Very true. Don't know which exact documentary this was as am kind of gliding through them last few days but it also mentions how much money some evangelical churches raised for Israel (aside from every day lobbying in Washington) in attempt to further empower Israel. For example, just one church raised around 70 million USD in last 20 years or so.

It all feels a bit surreal and somewhat uncomfortable watch.

 

[Pintu]

Maybe also because hating muslims aligns with the hysteria of their base about immigration? "We will not be replaced" The jews have been accused of many things over the years but mass immigration is not one of them (not recently anyway).

Anyhoo. Miles off topic. I'll shut up now.

Actually yes. Soros & "jews" have been accused repeatedly by some far right conspiration theorists of organising the ”White genocide”


Regarding the evangelical involvement in this, here is a very good piece about it:

 

[Buster15]

Without having time to catch-up on all the posts here, is the consensus now that the hospital blast is likely to have been accidental friendly-fire from a Palestinian rocket?

Very much depends on who you ask.
To be honest I don't think we will ever get any more information about it than we have been given so far. Which I a real shame. This is mainly because the actual site has not been secured for proper analysis.
So, those who sympathise with either side will have already made their minds up.
Maybe there is the silver bullet out there. Still early days I guess.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Retaliation for what ? She's a comedian expressing an opinion, just like the guy in the Piers Morgan video (who is apparently based in the US as well).

An opinion that 2 million people should suffer hunger and death because of a terrorist organization. How is that different from saying the Israelis deserved to die because of their governments atrocities against Palestinians? What reaction do you think that would get in the US?

 

[dinostar77]

Dunno if posted before but this was such a dark humour interview:

Yes its truly excellent

 

[RedC]

I suppose there won't be any retaliation or widespread condemnation for supporting war crimes against Palestinians right? I can only imagine what the reaction would've been had someone defended Hamas' atrocities.

Ah, so she's a bad comedian and a bad person.

 

[Drizzle]

Very much depends on who you ask.
To be honest I don't think we will ever get any more information about it than we have been given so far. Which I a real shame. This is mainly because the actual site has not been secured for proper analysis.
So, those who sympathise with either side will have already made their minds up.
Maybe there is the silver bullet out there. Still early days I guess.

Surely it's fair to say that the balance of neutral opinion is now that it was probably a failed IJ rocket. Each side then divides according to their prior sympathies.

 

[Raoul]

An opinion that 2 million people should suffer hunger and death because of a terrorist organization. How is that different from saying the Israelis deserved to die because of their governments atrocities against Palestinians? What reaction do you think that would get in the US?

She's speaking to Israel's role in supplying assistance to Gaza, not that the people there shouldn't receive it from other sources (there is apparently a lot of aid either going into Gaza or ready to enter at Rafa now).

 

[Lash]

I suppose there won't be any retaliation or widespread condemnation for supporting war crimes against Palestinians right? I can only imagine what the reaction would've been had someone defended Hamas' atrocities.

Jesus, that is an awful take. You certainly can blame Hamas for the lack of resources and infrastructure, but this is just a barbaric statement.

 

[Lash]

She's speaking to Israel's role in supplying assistance to Gaza, not that the people there shouldn't receive it from other sources (there is apparently a lot of aid either going into Gaza or ready to enter at Rafa now).

I get her point, but it tracks horribly, considering what we know about the state of Gaza and explicitly using it as a quid pro quo with Hamas.

 

[ZupZup]

Al Jazeera have released a very good video following an investigation by their digital team to say they can see no grounds to the claims that it was a failed rocket launch.

They see multiple Israeli strikes in the preceding minutes in that part of Gaza, and they are adamant that all of the rockets launched in Gaza were intercepted by iron dome… including the one that has been suggested to have malfunctioned. They say the video shows that it was successfully intercepted and broken up in the sky.

 

[hasanejaz88]

She's speaking to Israel's role in supplying assistance to Gaza, not that the people there shouldn't receive it from other sources (there is apparently a lot of aid either going into Gaza or ready to enter at Rafa now).

This isn't about Israel supplying assistance, Israel flat out said they won't allow ANYTHING to come in and out of Gaza. She is perfectly fine with Israel keeping that status if hostages are not returned. She is perfectly fine with Palestinans dying because of Hamas. Nothing different from someone saying Israelis deserved to die. Ofcourse nothing is going to happen to her because you won't have a gang of lobbies baying for her to be sacked.

Here's an idea, if Israel finds it such a moral conundrum to whether allow themselves to supply electricity and water to Gaza, maybe they should open the borders and port and allow them to get these from wherever they want?

 

[Lash]

Al Jazeera have released a very good video following an investigation by their digital team to say they can see no grounds to the claims that it was a failed rocket launch.

They see multiple Israeli strikes in the preceding minutes in that part of Gaza, and they are adamant that all of the rockets launched in Gaza were intercepted by iron dome… including the one that has been suggested to have malfunctioned. They say the video shows that it was successfully intercepted and broken up in the sky.

I don't think that's what that report says, more that there isn't a clear picture of what happened and highlighting the changing narrative from Israel.

 

[Redplane]

In response to the Sarah Silverman thing: my biggest issue is with many of these people (and I'm not sure if Silverman has been one of those to be fair) - but the volume of folks I've also experienced in my private atmosphere who are normally self proclaimed pacifists and spoke shame of things like Iraq, Ukraine and Afghanistan to name a few conflicts - are now suddenly a-ok with treating others as sub-humans. It's the hypocrisy of it that gets me. It also shows how fragile the human mind is.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[ATXRedDevil]

Thought this was a great read and spot on.


Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT

Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.

What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.

During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.

Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.

This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.

In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"

What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.

We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."

Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

 

[Zen86]

Since when did it become a thing to continually post tweets by randomers and use them as a means of justifying a point? Most of these people are idiots who are just as ill-informed or influential as the rest of us.

 

[KingCantona87]

Thought this was a great read and spot on.


Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT

Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.

What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.

During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.

Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.

This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.

In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"

What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.

We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."

Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

Can't find fault with anything in this article. Thanks for sharing.

 

[berbatrick]

You're annoyed by Germany's obvious desire to do everything possible to side with Israel/Jews, to try and make up for the terrible wrongs they did in the past?

This sentence is interesting:



I wonder if you would ever use that phrase about reparations for slave trading, or colonialism?

For the last bit, would these reparations involve, for example, support of apartheid South Africa invading a black neighbour or Bantustan whose people had participated in the slave trade? Otherwise I'm *really* struggling to see the parallel, since I specifically used the word "transferring".

Again, I used these two examples specifically for a reason, since they involved 1. arresting an elderly Israeli Jewish woman and 2. refusing to listen to a very prominent Jewish politician. So I don't think they're "doing everything to side with the Jews" - they seem to have decided that Jews=Israel=Israeli foreign policy, which means their terrible wrongs are made up for by diong everything to side with the objectively terrible wrongs of an apartheid state*. (Note that going in the inverse direction, blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, is pretty obvious and widespread anti-semitism, often leading to violence).

While the state is doing this, their fascist AfD party has reached a comfortable second place in their polling. Interestingly, they want to get rid of this collective guilt - but they are totally supportive of Israel, at least according to a cursory google search:

Israel National News: The AfD surge in Germany is good for Jews and Israel
The German right-wing party Alternative for Germany (AfD) won an absolute majority in local elections for the first time ever. The government-funded German Jewish Council was appalled, but AfD is the most pro-Israel party in Germany.

The party is pro-Israel.[14][204][205] AfD supported the decision of US president Donald Trump to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital

So what does it mean when a far-right party that is opposed to collective guilt, is more Catholic than the Pope when it comes to their policy towards Israel? My suggestion (also in that post) is this uber-hawkish policy is a transfer, rather than acknowledgment.

*I should clarify, this is only part of it of course. I was in Berlin and thought their holocaust documentation, including how many of the leaders continued in power post-war, was very impressive

 

[Raoul]

This isn't about Israel supplying assistance, Israel flat out said they won't allow ANYTHING to come in and out of Gaza. She is perfectly fine with Israel keeping that status if hostages are not returned. She is perfectly fine with Palestinans dying because of Hamas. Nothing different from someone saying Israelis deserved to die. Ofcourse nothing is going to happen to her because you won't have a gang of lobbies baying for her to be sacked.

Here's an idea, if Israel finds it such a moral conundrum to whether allow themselves to supply electricity and water to Gaza, maybe they should open the borders and port and allow them to get these from wherever they want?

They've repeatedly stated they are ok with humanitarian aid going in through Rafa as long is it isn't used by Hamas. That's hardly an extreme position given they are officially at war with Hamas.

 

[Sir Matt]

 

[ZupZup]

I don't think that's what that report says, more that there isn't a clear picture of what happened and highlighting the changing narrative from Israel.

You must be thinking of something else… I didn’t say anything that is not stated by Al Jazeera in their new video.

 

[Pintu]

 

[JPRouve]

Jesus, that is an awful take. You certainly can blame Hamas for the lack of resources and infrastructure, but this is just a barbaric statement.

Actually you can't, the literal responsible isn't who people may think.

n November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain.

 

[moses]

Thought this was a great read and spot on.


Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT

Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.

What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.

During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.

Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.

This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.

In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"

What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.

We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."

Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.

Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145

While we all know of Hamas' flaws, while they may not have helped Palestine, the plight and suffering and murder of the Palestinians predates the existence of Hamas.