Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

HTG said:
Don’t agree. I think it’s a cynical point. Of course it matters where and why people die. It matters who killed them. If it was an accident or an attack it matters who ordered it. Yes, people are dead no matter what. But these things influence how we deal with this conflict going further. They influence international support or criticism.

And we can actually see that they matter. In these discussions, in the news, at protests and everywhere. They are obviously significant.
At least to me. And I think to others as well.

But sadly this thread has very largely succumbed to people choosing sites and just trying to advocate for their cause.
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Yep. very little "discussion" going on at times.
 
We already know Israel are levelling Gaza and civillian infrastructure, we already know Hamas are firing rockets from amidst civillian infrastructure. The risk both sides take is that something like this happens and, guilty or not, they get blamed for it happening. It's one group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital versus another group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital. With little hard evidence backing either claim up.

Unless/until we see investigations and evidence from 3rd parties, people are just feeding into the propaganda fight when they say "X did it", as you clearly can't know from the evidence presented so far.

And, in big picture terms, I doubt it matters to most people doing the speculating anyway. It's not like this will suddenly 180 their opinion of the IDF or Hamas.
 
If Israel are responsible then I expect we will soon see evidence by way of shrapnel.
 
Mogget said:
Mossad were on holiday 2 weeks ago but they're back at work now.

I think this "evidence" isn't going to change anything. Pro-Israelis are going to see it as proof but people against Israel, a country well known for killing civilians and lying about it, aren't going to be convinced.
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Indeed.
This isolated incident again shows that there's no room for a middle ground (i.e. me saying that we can't and won't know what happened).
everything goes to the black and white.

This entire 'conflict' in a nutshell.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
100% this.

It’s as though people obsess so much about a specific atrocity they lose track of the bigger picture. It was the exact same thing last week when the narrative on social media was all about babies that may or may not have been beheaded, despite knowing for a fact that hundreds of Israelis of all ages had definitely been slaughtered in cold blood by Hamas. Which was really all that mattered.

This hospital thing is becoming a distraction to the bigger picture. Gaza is being bombed back into the stone age. That’s what matters. Not the exact cause of just one of many explosions that happened there over the last week.

Can I blame social media?
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Not solely. There has been propaganda models and info manipulation for years. But it has, certainly added fuel to it. Lots of fuel.
 
sullydnl said:
We already know Israel are levelling Gaza and civillian infrastructure, we already know Hamas are firing rockets from amidst civillian infrastructure. The risk both sides take is that something like this happens and, guilty or not, they get blamed for it happening. It's one group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital versus another group of known liars who could easily lie about hitting a hospital. With little hard evidence backing either claim up.

Unless/until we see investigations and evidence from 3rd parties, people are just feeding into the propaganda fight when they say "X did it", as you clearly can't know from the evidence presented so far.

And, in big picture terms, I doubt it matters to most people doing the speculating anyway. It's not like this will suddenly 180 their opinion of the IDF or Hamas.
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You're speaking too much sense.

As for the bolded bit, I've seen this contested a couple of times in this thread and labelled "Bullshit Israeli PR".
doesn't seem to be a consensus outside of Israel.
 
Amir said:
Where as Hamas are a bunch of honourable, trustworthy gentlemen.
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Only one of them has repeated bombed hospitals and also bombed the same hospital a week ago, while also giving threats of bombing it again.
 
The Corinthian said:
The Israelis are known liars. They lie repeatedly to cover up their crimes. They weren’t even subtle about it this time round with the hospital bombing.

If their PR manager made a post then deleted it, and so far they’ve changed their story regarding the hospital 3-4 times, what does that tell you? The international community needs to hold them to account. Enough is enough.
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Who is them?
Because like the rest of us, you don't yet know who was behind the hospital tragedy, even though you have made up your mind already.
So why not wait to find out like the rest of us.
Oh wait.....
 
HTG said:
I disagree. These events are part of the bigger picture. They are moments of further escalation. They are the base for new hatred and violence. They matter. It matters who did it and why. Same with the story about the babies. There are differences between acts of war and war crimes. Even if the lines can be extremely blurred.
The idea that this doesn’t matter because people die anyway and it’s likely that nobody serves prison time for this, is something I can’t agree with. There is a difference between accidentally hitting civilians and targeting them. There is a difference between lone soldiers and the like committing atrocities and people in command actually ordering them. These things all matter. They are the pieces that make up the whole bigger picture.
They are the basis for judging what actually transpired here. And it baffles me that people on here disregard these events as something that has no importance. They are incredibly significant. And considering the arguments made by many people on here on how they formed their opinions in the conflict as a whole, where they stand and why they do so, shows me that they actually matter to them. They matter like turning of the water supply. They matter like attacking hundreds of people at a music festival.
It all matters.
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It would matter if the two sides who are in this are capable of empathy, forgiveness, admitting fault, and a willingness to move forward in peace.

So, basically, no, it doesn't matter.
They will just proceed to ping the blame to each other which will further fuel new hatred and violence. It's a neverending cycle.

And we're waaaay past any acts of accountability for any of the actions done by either side from a united nations, or EU, or US point of view.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Indeed.
This isolated incident again shows that there's no room for a middle ground (i.e. me saying that we can't and won't know what happened).
everything goes to the black and white.

This entire 'conflict' in a nutshell.
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I don't know how you cope with it tbh, it's easy for people like me to dip in and out of this thread when we please but you're actually having to live amongst it all.
 
This stuff is fascinating in a way. Both sides are desperate to win the war of public opinion, and the hospital incident has become latest battle in that war. I'd expect anything in terms of deception from both Hamas and Israel.

Do I believe Israel could fake an intercepted radio message from Hamas? Yes.
Do I believe Hamas would lie about having received a warning prior to the bombing? Yes.

And then you have all the missile and bomb experts on Twitter weighing in to further muddy the picture.

I'll reserve judgement until some independent authority has made a conclusion. Now we just have to determine who is independent in all this. And I totally agree it's another distraction from the larger picture.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Indeed.
This isolated incident again shows that there's no room for a middle ground (i.e. me saying that we can't and won't know what happened).
everything goes to the black and white.

This entire 'conflict' in a nutshell.
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But there is no middle ground. This is vile and disgusting and it almost doesn't matter who did it because that's what happens and has happened over and over in this war and all wars of this type. This is a symptom of the sickness.
 
DickDastardly said:
It would matter if the two sides who are in this are capable of empathy, forgiveness, admitting fault, and a willingness to move forward in peace.

So, basically, no, it doesn't matter.
They will just proceed to ping the blame to each other which will further fuel new hatred and violence. It's a neverending cycle.

And we're waaaay past any acts of accountability for any of the actions done by either side from a united nations, or EU, or US point of view.
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What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.

People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.

Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...

The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...

Rinse and repeat.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.

People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.

Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...

The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...

Rinse and repeat.
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Given that this usually leads to absolutely zero repercussions for Israel, except for the international equivalent of a "strongly worded letter".
 
Given how densely packed Gaza is, and I would guess especially so around a hospital, if Hamas fired a rocket from a car park behind the hospital and accidentally hit it, killing 500 people, then I would assume there would be a number of outraged civilian witnesses that could provide accounts?
 
Buster15 said:
Yes it is.
Because if the level of hate that is being spouted on here is anything to go by, it is a sad reflection of the true level of hate being acted upon by both sides in this ongoing conflict.

And caught in the middle are ordinary people just like you and me who are just trying to live our lives as peacefully as possible.
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Do the Palestinians not get their to live their lives peacefully, in their own houses. Something they've not been able to since 1948.
 
Mike Smalling said:
This stuff is fascinating in a way. Both sides are desperate to win the war of public opinion, and the hospital incident has become latest battle in that war. I'd expect anything in terms of deception from both Hamas and Israel.

Do I believe Israel could fake an intercepted radio message from Hamas? Yes.
Do I believe Hamas would lie about having received a warning prior to the bombing? Yes.

And then you have all the missile and bomb experts on Twitter weighing in to further muddy the picture.

I'll reserve judgement until some independent authority has made a conclusion. Now we just have to determine who is independent in all this. And I totally agree it's another distraction from the larger picture.
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A very wise decision.

In my former role, I was involved in a number of aircraft accident investigations.
And THE most important thing was to be allowed the time to carry out the investigation so as to determine the precise cause.
There were always those who could not just wait and allow us to do our job; to go through the process of observing, deducing and analysing each and every piece of debris until we had found what actually went wrong.

And so I will wait while others speculate.
The evidence is out there.
 
moses said:
But there is no middle ground. This is vile and disgusting and it almost doesn't matter who did it because that's what happens and has happened over and over in this war and all wars of this type. This is a symptom of the sickness.
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If there's no middle ground then I can't for the life of me understand why this thread is called "Israel-Palestine discussion".
Where is the discussion? What's the point in airing one's opinion here?

How can you say that it almost doesn't matter who did it when:

a) people have been discussing who did it for about 10 pages already
b) this will incite greater anti-Israel demonstrations that will surely have at least so effect on politicians
c) this will have repercussions about what Biden allows/doesn't allow (funny to put it that way) Israel to do next

If it was proven that Israel did it beyond doubt there is a very real chance that a forced cease-fire would have taken place.
Of course it needs to be discussed.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.

People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.

Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...

The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...

Rinse and repeat.
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All valid opinions.

The parts i don't get - "Israel is expected to act more morally than them" - well, you would actually demand that a democratic legal and moral country behaves more morally then a terrorist organisation, no?

Also, endless discussions in the UN that lead to nothing. Just babble and a verbal slap on the wrist. "Do try and not hit a hospital next time, okaaay?"

"calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all..." - without actually processing any of them?

You know, we (croatians) had a war some 30 years ago, we also had to defend ourselves.
We also did war crimes unfortunately, the difference is, our generals and military personel actually did a lot of time in the War tribunal prison in Hague.
They were held accountable. Some of them lawfuly, some of them were convinced on bullshit crimes, but nevertheless - we were on trial.
 
DickDastardly said:
All valid opinions.

The parts i don't get - "Israel is expected to act more morally than them" - well, you would actually demand that a democratic legal and moral country behaves more morally then a terrorist organisation, no?

Also, endless discussions in the UN that lead to nothing. Just babble and a verbal slap on the wrist. "Do try and not hit a hospital next time, okaaay?"

"calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all..." - without actually processing any of them?

You know, we (croatians) had a war some 30 years ago, we also had to defend ourselves.
We also did war crimes unfortunately, the difference is, our generals and military personel actually did a lot of time in the War tribunal prison in Hague.
They were held accountable. Some of them lawfuly, some of them were convinced on bullshit crimes, but nevertheless - we were on trial.
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seeing as I've been referred to it twice already- I should have stated that I know these denouncements by the UN mean jack shit and won't stop the next war.

I know that the Israeli top-figures won't be on trial, that's the Western bias.
 
Superden said:
Do the Palestinians not get their to live their lives peacefully, in their own houses. Something they've not been able to since 1948.
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For the majority of the time, most Palestinians do live their lives in relative peace, given the ongoing situation in the Middle East.

The decision that was made in 1948 to give the Israeli people their homeland is what it is.
And the State of Israel is, in the main, recognised by the global community.

This latest situation was the result of a terrorist group attacking Israel. Not the other way round.
 
Conor said:
Given how densely packed Gaza is, and I would guess especially so around a hospital, if Hamas fired a rocket from a car park behind the hospital and accidentally hit it, killing 500 people, then I would assume there would be a number of outraged civilian witnesses that could provide accounts?
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I'm not entirely convinced the atmosphere within Gaza is such that many civillian witnesses would be rushing to publicly denounce the Hamas forces they're effectively imprisoned with and face reprisals from just for the sake of clearing the reputation of the IDF, who are in fact committing war crimes against them anyway.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
seeing as I've been referred to it twice already- I should have stated that I know these denouncements by the UN mean jack shit and won't stop the next war.

I know that the Israeli top-figures won't be on trial, that's the Western bias.
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Not just the Israeli top figures, any Israeli at all.
Israel hasn't signed the Rome convention and doesn't recognize International criminal court, therefore, Israeli soldiers are free to kill who ever they want and not be held responsible under any circumstance.

Maybe one or two, and that's if they shoot a foreigner or a news crew.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
If there's no middle ground then I can't for the life of me understand why this thread is called "Israel-Palestine discussion".
Where is the discussion? What's the point in airing one's opinion here?

How can you say that it almost doesn't matter who did it when:

a) people have been discussing who did it for about 10 pages already
b) this will incite greater anti-Israel demonstrations that will surely have at least so effect on politicians
c) this will have repercussions about what Biden allows/doesn't allow (funny to put it that way) Israel to do next

If it was proven that Israel did it beyond doubt there is a very real chance that a forced cease-fire would have taken place.
Of course it needs to be discussed.
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Oh it will fuel discussion as these atrocities have for decades. But discussion doesn't mean action or consequence. And of course it needs to be discussed but I don't think it changes the big picture, even if this causes enough external rage to pause the war.

My main point was the preoccupation with who did this. As if it is not exactly what we expected to happen to some degree. This was inevitable and has been happening all week in various forms and scale.

The graph is continuously moving in one direction for decades. This incident won't change that is my feeling.
 
Drizzle said:
From a twitter account that's been extremely critical of Israel up to now.

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Yeah, none of the OSINT people I have followed for years about Ukraine appear to think this was done by Israel at this point.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
seeing as I've been referred to it twice already- I should have stated that I know these denouncements by the UN mean jack shit and won't stop the next war.

I know that the Israeli top-figures won't be on trial, that's the Western bias.
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The UN shoot themselves a nuke in the foot at their very creation by giving a veto right to the world's biggest powers. From there it could only lead to one path.

This world is a schoolyard ruled by bullies.
 
DickDastardly said:
Not just the Israeli top figures, any Israeli at all.
Israel hasn't signed the Rome convention and doesn't recognize International criminal court, therefore, Israeli soldiers are free to kill who ever they want and not be held responsible under any circumstance.

Maybe one or two, and that's if they shoot a foreigner or a news crew.
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If Israel had signed this Rome convention,
would it have been possible to prosecute IDF soldiers in the international criminal courts?
I know nothing about these things.
 
Buster15 said:
This latest situation was the result of a terrorist group attacking Israel. Not the other way round.
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This latest news cycle was the result of an attack on Israel.

It happened because some people think the open prison they are forced to live in is unacceptable.

Drawing an arbitrary line a couple of weeks ago is dangerous.

These events are not isolated don't just come from nowhere. You can't draw lines.
 
That_Bloke said:
The UN shoot themselves a nuke in the foot at their very creation by giving a veto right to the world's biggest powers. From there it could only lead to one path.

This world is a schoolyard ruled by bullies.
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Nah. The Security Council of UN was created as an organization to protect the interests of US, UK and USSR, but to not make it so blatant, gave vetoes to France and China.

It has protected the interests of these countries since then, so job well done.
 
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