Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

moses said:
Oh it will fuel discussion as these atrocities have for decades. But discussion doesn't mean action or consequence. And of course it needs to be discussed but I don't think it changes the big picture, even if this causes enough external rage to pause the war.

My main point was the preoccupation with who did this. As if it is not exactly what we expected to happen to some degree. This was inevitable and has been happening all week in various forms and scale.

The graph is continuously moving in one direction for decades. This incident won't change that is my feeling.
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Ok, now I understand you better and agree.
It is very very obviously not going to change anything for the Palestinians in the short, medium in long run.
 
Revan said:
Nah. The Security Council of UN was created as an organization to protect the interests of US, UK and USSR, but to not make it so blatant, gave vetoes to France and China.

It has protected the interests of these countries since then, so job well done.
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Do historians agree with you on your framing? My memory may be failing me but I thought the explanation was that China was part of the Allied powers fighting Japan in WW2, hence why they were included?
 
So Biden says based on what he seen it seems like its caused by the "other side", but adds that many people are not sure.

Thats a stupid thing to say imo, as it will be used by the Pro-Israel side as proof that they did not do it.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Never seen the US and the UK so explicitly on Israel's side than this past few weeks.
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The US has always been like this, that's why I argue they're one of the biggest obstacles to lasting peace. They just don't work an mediator in this conflict. It was a little worse under Trump, but ultimately both parties completely fall in line when it comes to the issue of Israel. They're essentially to Israel what Iran are to Hamas. The UK to an extent too, but more so with this manifestation of the Tory party. Doesn't help that they have a quasi-Fascist like Cruella in their cabinet.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
If Israel had signed this Rome convention,
would it have been possible to prosecute IDF soldiers in the international criminal courts?
I know nothing about these things.
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Yes.
That's what the ICC does.

It would take a shit load of years, but as they say, justice is slow but sure.

It took the Hague court for war crimes in Croatia around 20-25 years to make some convictions, some of them were never convicted, sometimes it was bullshit charges that went up the chain of command rather then the soldiers who commited the war crimes it self, there was a lot of wrongdoing by the court, but still - there could be some positives taken by all that.

Not sure how this would all function in a State vs Terrorist war, but still, some accountability should be taken and judged by third party.
 
VorZakone said:
Do historians agree with you on your framing? My memory may be failing me but I thought the explanation was that China was part of the Allied powers fighting Japan in WW2, hence why they were included?
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Well yeah. France also. But the war was essentially won by US, USSR and UK, and those three emerged as the world's leading powers (albeit for the UK it was just for a few years cause the Empire ended soon after).
 
Frank Grimes said:
Never seen the US and the UK so explicitly on Israel's side than this past few weeks.
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It’s always been like this, feels more so now though as the narrative is changing because we have access to social media and actual information more easily
 
Frank Grimes said:
Never seen the US and the UK so explicitly on Israel's side than this past few weeks.
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The world order needs this actually.

If Israel loses the support from the West, it shifts the power to the East.
And i don't mean just the Arab states.
China is watching, and any slip by the West could easily mean the end for Taiwan.

It's a game of Risk and the polarization is getting more and more evident.
 
DickDastardly said:
Yes.
That's what the ICC does.

It would take a shit load of years, but as they say, justice is slow but sure.

It took the Hague court for war crimes in Croatia around 20-25 years to make some convictions, some of them were never convicted, sometimes it was bullshit charges that went up the chain of command rather then the soldiers who commited the war crimes it self, there was a lot of wrongdoing by the court, but still - there could be some positives taken by all that.

Not sure how this would all function in a State vs Terrorist war, but still, some accountability should be taken and judged by third party.
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I see. thanks for explaining.
 
BootsyCollins said:
So Biden says based on what he seen it seems like its caused by the "other side", but adds that many people are not sure.

Thats a stupid thing to say imo, as it will be used by the Pro-Israel side as proof that they did not do it.
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Looks like upgrade on Trump's stupidity.
 
moses said:
This latest news cycle was the result of an attack on Israel.

It happened because some people think the open prison they are forced to live in is unacceptable.

Drawing an arbitrary line a couple of weeks ago is dangerous.

These events are not isolated don't just come from nowhere. You can't draw lines.
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No.
This latest situation was caused by Hamas on behalf of Hamas and with no regard for the safety of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
They knew that Israel would respond with force.

They planned it very carefully with the objective of destabilising the Middle East and drawing Israel into armed conflict against Gaza.
And it has worked.
So well done.....
 
moses said:
This latest news cycle was the result of an attack on Israel.

It happened because some people think the open prison they are forced to live in is unacceptable.
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Or... it happened right now, politically speaking, because Hamas did not want to see a normalisation of relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia.
 
Regardless of who blew up the hospital surely the humane thing to do is call an immediate ceasefire. 500 People being killed because there were caught in the crossfire of fighting between Hamas and Israeli military should be unacceptable.
I have lost a lot of respect for Biden here, he is not offering proper leadership and wise counsel to reduce the human suffering on the ground.
Instead, he is lapping up the opportunity to be seen as the strong man who has zero tolerance on terrorism, especially timely for him with the elections in the US next year.
 
padzilla said:
Regardless of who blew up the hospital surely the humane thing to do is call an immediate ceasefire. 500 People being killed because there were caught in the crossfire of fighting between Hamas and Israeli military should be unacceptable.
I have lost a lot of respect for Biden here, he is not offering proper leadership and wise counsel to reduce the human suffering on the ground.
Instead, he is lapping up the opportunity to be seen as the strong man who has zero tolerance on terrorism, especially timely for him with the elections in the US next year.
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Wouldn't have happened had the democracts selected Bernie not this crook Biden.

Honestly Trump would have provided better leadership.
 
Journalistic integrity seemed very important to some people last week when it came to chopping heads off babies but of no consequence to the same people this week when it comes to blowing up hospitals. As a result of Israel being accused of blowing up the hospital the conflagration spread, Hezbollah announced a day of rage, high level meetings got cancelled, possibilities of containing the war were materially lessened. These are actual tangible things that changed as a result of reporting.

It's all very well saying this one incident shouldn't affect much given the scale of Israel's wrongdoing but that's very much different to saying it hasn't affected anything. Evidently it has.
 
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sullydnl said:
I'm not entirely convinced the atmosphere within Gaza is such that many civillian witnesses would be rushing to publicly denounce the Hamas forces they're effectively imprisoned with and face reprisals from just for the sake of clearing the reputation of the IDF, who are in fact committing war crimes against them anyway.
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It's not about clearing the IDF, not every civilian is backing Hamas and I would guess seeing them kill 500 people would make you quite angry. I'm not talking about them getting on CNN and naming themselves.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Journalistic integrity seemed very important to some people last week when it came to chopping heads off babies but of no consequence to the same people this week when it comes to blowing up hospitals. As a result of Israel being accused of blowing up the hospital the conflagration spread, Hezbollah announced a day of rage, high level meetings got cancelled, possibilities of containing the war were materially lessened. These are actual tangible things that changed as a result of reporting.

It's all very well saying this one incident shouldn't affect much given the scale of Israel's wrongdoing but that's very much a different to saying it hasn't affected anything. Evidently it has.
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You are giving way too much importance to journalists and reports when it comes to high level political meetings. It is highly unlikely that they got their information from journalists.
 
Revan said:
Waiting for white house press secretary to say that 'President Biden meant that Israeli Intelligence told us that the rocket was fired by Islamic Jihad.'
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I really don’t like piling on Biden as there’s so much right wing hate, but he might be one of the worst presidents to have at this time. I don’t know if it’s his age, or if he’s always been like this, but he genuinely seems to have no idea or care for how important his wording is.
 
JPRouve said:
You are giving way too much importance to journalists and reports when it comes to high level political meetings. It is highly unlikely that they got their information from journalists.
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I think the immediate assumption that this was Israel was seized upon with such vigour and caused such widespread anger that the cancelling of talks was inevitable.
 
JPRouve said:
You are giving way too much importance to journalists and reports when it comes to high level political meetings. It is highly unlikely that they got their information from journalists.
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The perception that the IDF deliberately bombed the hospital would make it difficult for leaders in the region to engage. They would be labelled as traitors by engaging in any talks following what would be an atrocity.

Whether or not they believed it was true, the misinformation had spread and those meetings will have become untenable domestically as a result.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I think the immediate assumption that this was Israel was seized upon with such vigour and caused such widespread anger that the cancelling of talks was inevitable.
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Which could well have been the objective......
 
Buster15 said:
Which could well have been the objective......
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Nah, this appears to have been an accident and even the IDF are saying that in their version of events. A rocket failure not a deliberate strike. Ultimately a lot of innocent people are dead and this is just another reminder of why this needs de-escalating.

The propaganda machine really kicked into gear quickly, but that doesn't take much in the age of Twitter and an army of witless doomscrollers.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
What usually happens is that, the longer these Gaza wars go, less will be spoken about Hamas because nobody expects anything from them and "it should be taken for granted that they are vile". Until Hamas starts torturing kidnapped people [if at all], nobody is going to talk about what happened on October 7th.

People have already stopped calling for Hamas' head in this very thread. Which is why I keep saying this is PR gold for them, whether they did it or not.

Israel is expected to act more morally than them (sometimes the terrain allows for it, sometimes less so) and once it doesn't- it never does- There will be endless discussions in the UN Security Council calling them war criminals, there will be investigations after it all ends condemning it all...

The Israeli public will then feel that the world is against Israel no matter what, borderline anti-semitic, nobody understands what we're dealing with...

Rinse and repeat.
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This really gets at my fundamental problem with the 'two-sidesing' of it all. Basically, 100% of people agree that if Hamas botched a rocket and it blew a hospital, that's just Hamas being Hamas. 100% people agree that if it was the IDF - even accidentally and maybe moreso - then we want accountability, we want investigations and so forth.

It's so assymetrical. Before the latest Hamas escalation, the UN estimated that just over 5,000 Gazan civilians had been killed since 2008. That's 15 years. Hamas killed 1,500 in an afternoon. And yes, Israel retailiation will now have surpassed that number, no doubt. But if Hamas hadn't acted 2 weeks ago, there'd be over 3,000 more civilians alive in that region right now. That is a simple fact.

But Israel are the bad guys, and only one side has agency to act. Hamas are simply a jihadist automaton without freewill, one cannot expect accountability, in fact it's really Israel's fault that Hamas killed its citizens en masse. In fact, it's really the Western nations' fault from 100 years ago.
 
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I imagine the problem is while most people will express scepticism at anything that comes out of Israel as propaganda especially through the IDF, the "Gaza Health Ministry" which is run by Hamas sounds humane and legitimate. I still have doubts that a errant rocket could cause the loss of 500 people but there hasn't been conclusive evidence that it was a air strike when usually footage of it does appear quickly.
 
padzilla said:
Regardless of who blew up the hospital surely the humane thing to do is call an immediate ceasefire. 500 People being killed because there were caught in the crossfire of fighting between Hamas and Israeli military should be unacceptable.
I have lost a lot of respect for Biden here, he is not offering proper leadership and wise counsel to reduce the human suffering on the ground.
Instead, he is lapping up the opportunity to be seen as the strong man who has zero tolerance on terrorism, especially timely for him with the elections in the US next year.
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Did you get that from Hannity?

FFS, the sitting US President has flown into a war zone to encourage a ceasefire. And that's your take? Him being there is providing a ceasefire. What else do you want him to do, exactly?
 
Zlatattack said:
Wouldn't have happened had the democracts selected Bernie not this crook Biden.

Honestly Trump would have provided better leadership.
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We've done it guys! We've found the worst possible take! I wasn't sure it would happen in this of all threads, but here it is! The internet is finished!
 
Cloudface said:
Nah, this appears to have been an accident and even the IDF are saying that in their version of events. A rocket failure not a deliberate strike. Ultimately a lot of innocent people are dead and this is just another reminder of why this needs de-escalating.

The propaganda machine really kicked into gear quickly, but that doesn't take much in the age of Twitter and an army of witless doomscrollers.
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Ok. Appreciate this.
 
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