It does seem like that to me as well, from my fairly uneducated position here on the fence.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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Israel should have engaged in self-enforced ceasefire yesterday for the 24 hours leading to Biden's visit and the summit with the other leaders. That was the only opportunity for a proper ceasefire and talks for diplomatic relations and if rockets still were being sent over they have the defense system to intercept anyway. There would be no fog of war in this instance if it turns out that it was a misfired rocket from within Gaza that has already torpedoed diplomacy had Israel stepped back.
That decrepit sniffer claiming it wasn't Israel, he really is a special type of weirdo is old creepy Joe.
Huh? Figures I'm looking at says 2800 Gazan civlians killed before this latest flare-up.
Also, UN only counts those killed in direct combat actions. There are thousands of civilian deaths caused by Israel that aren't the result of direct combat actions.
I am not sure how Israel can feel that the indiscriminate slaughter of Palestines is okay because a group they view as a terrorist organisation started it.
That’s the same logic the British used when they spent decades murdering British civilians in NI.
War crime is a war crime for a reason. You shouldn’t be judging states by the standards of terrorist organisations
"You think they are Superman but they are Homelander"One side is a nation state, the other is a terrorist organisation.
Similar sentiments have been uttered in relation to the Troubles in Northern Ireland: it isn't fair that British soldiers are held accountable for their actions, and there is a lot of whataboutery. I'm no defender of terrorists, whether it be the IRA or Hamas, but many members of those organisations have gone to jail for their actions. The state actors should always be held to a higher standard, otherwise they are essentially identifying themselves as terrorists, too. They are the Goliath in these confrontations. They have the military might, economic and logistical supremacy, political heft, international legitimacy, and so on.
I write this in full knowledge that nation states do engage in atrocities and act holier-than-thou. In theory, though, they should be 'better' than the terrorists.
Weird take. You’re basically complaining that a democratically elected government regime (and enjoying all the benefits on the world stage of being so) is being held to different standards than a terrorist organisation.
1. Yes, Israel which gets a ton of military support from the west and is a supposedly democratic nation, is held to a higher standard than a bunch of terrorists. Everyone knows what Hamas is - many deny Israel’s tactics.
2. Why would you limit the number of deaths to Gaza? Does Israel’s atrocities in the West Bank not matter in this context? Before this latest flare up, the conflict overwhelmingly killed Palestinians. It’s not even up for debate.
Indiscriminate slaughter of both Palestinians and Israeli. Let's remember that.
I detest that indiscriminate slaughter of human beings, whichever side and have made that very clear.
500 weren’t killed. It’s not plausible. All that number does is kill your trust in the Gaza health ministry.
And here’s the impact crater 10 metres away Already said I’m not going to analyse something I know nothing about, but others feel more and more like this was a terrorist rocket which broke up mid air.
That said, none of this absolves the IDF for the siege and devastation, the terrible ccr from poor target picking, and the deaths they have caused by such an attitude to war.
And here’s the impact crater 10 metres away Already said I’m not going to analyse something I know nothing about, but others feel more and more like this was a terrorist rocket which broke up mid air.
That said, none of this absolves the IDF for the siege and devastation, the terrible ccr from poor target picking, and the deaths they have caused by such an attitude to war.
The point is that the perception isn't based on journalists reports, it's not based on misinformation either. When IDF spokeperson initially states that they don't know if it was an Israeli strike and when you know that they were operarting in the area previously, IDF becomes one of the suspects.
But it is asyemmetrical in almost every way, especially the control and power dynamic. That's the point.
In real terms though Israel is a nation state that receives the full support of western countries like the US and UK, while Hamas is a designated terrorist organisation and many western countries do not officially recognise Palestine as a state.
In other words the assymetry in expectations is a reflection of official status, material support and international protections, which are heavily assymetrical in Israel's favour. And that matters a lot more than whether public discourse around the issue also falls in that direction, though even then a large section of it clearly does.
Israel can't claim and benefit from that status as they do without also having to abide by the implicit responsibilities it entails. They're the ones with the power balance and legitimacy from other western countries in their favour here, not Hamas.
You've just done exactly what you've accused others of doing, chaulking up Israel killing civilians as just an effect resultant of Hamas actions thus removing agency. No one is forcing Israel to kill civilians, trying to redistribute that blame is as sickening as those blaming Israel for Hamas actions.
We can all discuss the situations that may directly/indirectly contribute to actions but the blame for the actual action is on those who commit them.
I think that I can make this apparent imbalance better understood. One side, the one that you think isn't being scrutinized is already treated and officially labeled as a terrorist organization, their members are considered criminals just by being members and will be jailed if caught in most if not all western countries. There isn't a level above being considered criminals and there is no positive expectations put on them, they have already been judged.
The degree to which this was an asymmetrical conflict, before Hamas' latest attacks:
1400? This website itself says around 4300 civilians or "disputed" died before this conflict in Gaza.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
I asked myself if I would remain non violent if I was subjected to even half of what people go through everyday in Gaza, and I just dont know. Seeing how the IDF treats people, its just so so degrading. How hopeless must it feel when you dont have food, water, anything really, all your loved ones are getting bombed, and you just hear the biggest country in the world supporting your oppressors. Its such a hopeless state of mind to be in, its gotta eat up your soul.
This 100%
People aren't shrugging their shoulders and saying "that's just Hamas being Hamas." People are aware that Hamas will be accountable. The accountability is that they will be killed by the IDF.
The same Trump that just yesterday announced that he was to be elected again there would be no Muslim refugees from certain countries and specifically said pro-Hamas Muslims from Gaza would be banned?
That's a fair rebuttal to some extent. I'm disgusted by the Israel counteroffensive too, and wish that calmer heads had prevailed and it wasn't happening, and hope with Biden there a genuine ceasefire can be brokered. Having Netanyahu - a categorically bad human being - in charge and in genuine threat at the time has certainly made things far, far worse.
But I'm not sure what all of the anti-Israeli posters would have had Israel do in response to watching the attacks Hamas carried out. And a genuine response, not a glib 'maybe don't kill babies in hospitals'. Because it's not as though Hamas aren't hiding in those hospitals, or launching rockets from literally across the road.
Apologies, corrected original post, saw the bar chart at the bottom listing 'Gaza' as top item and didn't include other areas. Regardless, I'd imagine that many have now died in the past 2 weeks, including the Israelis. Just an incredible escalation.
Who are the anti-Israeli posters and why is that label important?
That's a terribly narrow-minded view of the whole conflict and exactly why the situation there never changes.
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What a really odd take.
Is it glib to expect a nation of Israel's power militarily to not bomb civilian populations because they assume Hamas members are hiding there?
If you honestly can't read this thread and quickly establish the view of many on Israel, I'm not sure what to say. Fine, then what would neutral posters have had Israel do?
No wonder the nation and its politicians feel so emboldened tbh.
Firstly, your use of assume is doing a lot of work there.
But fine, Israel - in response to the biggest killing of Israeli citizens in generations - should have held their hands up and said: listen, Hamas did this, it's awful, but they're also really good at hiding, and so let's just hope it doesn't happen again. We'll try real hard to find them. We call on our neighbours to aid us with intelligence, and to stop supplying them with funding and arms.
We hold Israel and the advanced weapons tech we sell them to higher standard than Hamas, what a revelation.
Ridiculous comment, a classic false dichotomy.
Do you believe if Hamas hadn't done anything notable 2 weeks ago, there would not be about 5,000 more human beings alive next week in that region? Is it that strange a take? It seems fairly straight-forward to me.
As context, I also wish about 3,500 more people would still be alive as Israel would not have killed any civilians whatsoever in response.
What would you do as Israel in response?