Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Sassy Colin said:
You want to direct your ire at Hamas. They've created this situation. They knew exactly what they were doing and they don't give a flying feck for the Palestinians.

They knew that Israel would respond like this and there hope is that the international community will turn against them.

They're committed to the demise of Israel and if a few thousand Palestinians and Israelis have to die, well that's just collateral damage to them.
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So no ire for Israel responding like this because it's expected of them?
 
Sassy Colin said:
Oh please, I am talking about the current situation, obviously. You think the Israelis would have been bombing the shit out of Gaza all week if Hamas hadn't murdered over a thousand Israelis last weekend?
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The current situation isn't current, that's the entire issue.
 
redshaw said:
I think the common person in the west is more and more sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians. Israel may be digging a hole for itself bombing an open air prison and people realize the grip they have on the areas without improving the situation. As more light shines of what they're doing a two state solution could come back.
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I’d say the needle has actually moved in the opposite direction this last week. Although that may change when the situation in Gaza gets as grim as it inevitably will in the near future.
 
frostbite said:
This is 9/11 for Israel.

And the sad thing is that most of the young people at the music festival actually supported peace with Palestinians. From now on, who in Israel will support peace with Palestinians?


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Ironic statement at the end in that tweet.
 
That_Bloke said:
That's an author I'd never thought I see mentioned here. "The Wretched of the Earth" is a fantastic book.

He was a hero of mine when I grew up. Still is, mind.
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Yeah he's amazing. One of the most inspirational writers I've encountered. You are right, that's an amazing book and casts light on so many struggles.
 
adexkola said:
I disdain Hamas' latest attack on civilians and their genocidal charter.

But they didn't create this situation. This situation has been play before they came into existence and became a dominant player (thanks to Bibi)
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Hamas's only intention is to turn people against Israel. Don't kid yourself that they value the lives of Palestinians any more than they value the lives of Israelis.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Oh please, I am talking about the current situation, obviously. You think the Israelis would have been bombing the shit out of Gaza all week if Hamas hadn't murdered over a thousand Israelis last weekend?
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You can't just draw arbitrary lines Colin. Unless it's to stop it all.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Hamas's only intention is to turn people against Israel. Don't kid yourself that they value the lives of Palestinians any more than they value the lives of Israelis.
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I think you can direct your ire at Hamas and Israel. Even if you ignore the current/ongoing Israeli assault on Gaza they have to bear the responsibility for creating conditions where violent extremists like Hamas are seen as salvation by so many Palestinians.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Hamas's only intention is to turn people against Israel. Don't kid yourself that they value the lives of Palestinians any more than they value the lives of Israelis.
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Who are they trying to turn against Israel? What they did was atrocious but I think partly they might want what we all take for granted.
 
The Corinthian said:
You can argue semantics all you want but the reality is it’s not a war between two nations. One of the parties has been under military occupation for decades. And again, no army to call on, no navy, no air force.
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You don't need two nation states to make it a war.

When I took a History of War class in college the first week or two was an exercise in trying to collectively as a class define "war". The professor said every one of his classes would have slightly different definitions of what constituted a war. But one thing I remember he said, no one ever defined war as having a requirement of the belligerents being two nation states.

I think after the large scale massacre of civilians that Hamas initiated last weekend, it is logical to call this a war between the IDF and Hamas.
 
moses said:
You can't just draw arbitrary lines Colin. Unless it's to stop it all.
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Exactly. If the idea is that Israel has a right to act the way they are doing then Hamas and any palestinian has the right to launch rockets at Israel. But the reality is that both are wrong both largely makes innocent victims.
 
Sassy Colin said:
You want to direct your ire at Hamas. They've created this situation. They knew exactly what they were doing and they don't give a flying feck for the Palestinians.

They knew that Israel would respond like this and there hope is that the international community will turn against them.

They're committed to the demise of Israel and if a few thousand Palestinians and Israelis have to die, well that's just collateral damage to them.
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True. The Palestinians were having the time of their lives before Hamas spoilt it with their terrorist acts.
 
frostbite said:
This is 9/11 for Israel.

And the sad thing is that most of the young people at the music festival actually supported peace with Palestinians. From now on, who in Israel will support peace with Palestinians?


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How do you know this?

For starters, attending a rave a stone throw away from an open air concentration camp doesn't exactly scream, "I support peace with the people imprisoned over the fence"
 
frostbite said:
This is 9/11 for Israel.

And the sad thing is that most of the young people at the music festival actually supported peace with Palestinians. From now on, who in Israel will support peace with Palestinians?


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I just couldn't imagine rolling perfectly & being able to dance to the sunrise & then see paragliders flying in that you were certain were part of the Supernova entertainment.

And then to go from such an apex of being satiated to an unmitigated horror of the scale of humanity.

No one, either sober or not during that five minute span of time, comes all the way back from that. That's Gordian knot levels of mental intractability.
 
Sassy Colin said:
Hamas's only intention is to turn people against Israel. Don't kid yourself that they value the lives of Palestinians any more than they value the lives of Israelis.
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Nobody's turned against Israel. The world is turning a blind eye and coming up with excuses (like "they attacked first") to justify the barbarism.
 
moses said:
Who are they trying to turn against Israel? What they did was atrocious but I think partly they might want what we all take for granted.
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Hamas aren't interested in peace. When have they ever given any indication that that are interested in peace?

They only have support from countries which nobody wants support from, e.g. Iran.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think you can direct your ire at Hamas and Israel. Even if you ignore the current/ongoing Israeli assault they have to bear the responsibilities for creating conditions where violent extremists like Hamas are seen as the best option by Palestinians.
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100%. There was an amazing article by Fisk when he was beaten up by Palestinians. I'll never foget it. It was just exuding with empathy and an understanding of their anger.

If Hamas and violence are your go to option, it's worth examaning why.
 
2cents said:
You’ve reminded me of this from Edward Said:

“[The Palestinians] have had the extraordinarily bad luck to have a good case in resisting colonial invasion of their homeland combined with, in terms of the international and moral scene , the most morally complex of all opponents, Jews, with a long history of victimization and terror behind them. The absolute wrong of settler-colonialism is very much diluted and perhaps even dissipated when it is a fervently believed-in Jewish survival that uses settler-colonialism to straighten out its own destiny.”
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Yep.

"By and large there is this theory, that if you hit Israel hard then it will compromise. I think, almost without exception it is the reverse. You hit Israel very hard, it hardens, and it fights back, and Israelis get convinced that this is a fight for their lives and the lives of their children, and their babies in cages.They will fight. Part of the idea of the state is there will finally be one place where they can defend themselves. The fact that they failed, so miserably to defend themselves in their home, will just cause them to double down and fight harder, not anything else." (Natan Sachs)

How do you morally [and effectively] resist that?
 
Saudi Arabia rejects Israel's demands for Palestinians to leave north Gaza
Saudi Arabia has joined Egypt in "categorically" rejecting Israel's calls for more than one million Palestinians to flee the north of Gaza.
It condemns the targeting of defenceless civilians, the Kingdom said in a statement.
It demands the lifting of the siege on Gaza and renews its call to the international community to quickly move to stop all forms of military escalation against civilians, the statement added.
Before the beginning of the conflict, Saudi and Israel had been talks over a normalisation of relations between the countries - although some reports today suggested they had been suspended.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
America has experience in this. Every time a mass shooting happens, now is not the time to talk about guns.
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This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a terrorist attack planned for a long time, by an organization that wants to destroy the country. This is exactly like the 9/11 attack by Al Queda.

And the United States now wants to terminate Hamas as they wanted to terminate Al Queda. This is not a mass shooting, it is war.
 
dinostar77 said:
Saudi Arabia rejects Israel's demands for Palestinians to leave north Gaza
Saudi Arabia has joined Egypt in "categorically" rejecting Israel's calls for more than one million Palestinians to flee the north of Gaza.
It condemns the targeting of defenceless civilians, the Kingdom said in a statement.
It demands the lifting of the siege on Gaza and renews its call to the international community to quickly move to stop all forms of military escalation against civilians, the statement added.
Before the beginning of the conflict, Saudi and Israel had been talks over a normalisation of relations between the countries - although some reports today suggested they had been suspended.
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That's normalization down the drain
 
Sassy Colin said:
Hamas aren't interested in peace. When have they ever given any indication that that are interested in peace?

They only have support from countries which nobody wants support from, e.g. Iran.
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No militant revolutionary wants peace though Colin, they want change.

They live in an open prison, that's not really peace.
 
frostbite said:
This wasn't a mass shooting. It was a terrorist attack planned for a long time, by an organization that wants to destroy the country. This is exactly like the 9/11 attack by Al Queda.

And the United States now wants to terminate Hamas as they wanted to terminate Al Queda. This is not a mass shooting, it is war.
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I was only talking about the notion that "now is not the time" to talk about Israel's atrocities against Palestinians.
 
adexkola said:


"Now's not the time"

A special from the Jim Crow days. "MLK, we hear you. But just be patient. Wait for the appropriate time"
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Its not incorrect given that there's a full on war taking place at the moment where Hamas' actions have been decoupled from the long term interests of Palestinians (nevermind that they don't even represent all Palestinians).
 
adexkola said:
How do you know this?

For starters, attending a rave a stone throw away from an open air concentration camp doesn't exactly scream, "I support peace with the people imprisoned over the fence"
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A small group of people decided the rave's location, not the vast number of party goers.

Has a detailed casualty list come out yet from the event? I'd bet that not all the attendees were all Israeli. Would it have been feasible that a Palestinian or two were there & perhaps murdered along with the rest?
 
dinostar77 said:
isnt that what iran wanted. The potential "normalisation" between israel and Saudi Arabia not to happen?
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They definitely didn't want it to happen. More broadly, the Abraham Accords were normalizing Israeli relations with most Arab nations, which would've been disastrous for Iranian interests of sock puppeting Hamas and Hezbollah attacks against Israel.
 
adexkola said:
How do you know this?

For starters, attending a rave a stone throw away from an open air concentration camp doesn't exactly scream, "I support peace with the people imprisoned over the fence"
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Nah, that’s bollox. There are lot of left leaning Israelis who abhor the current government. And you’re not going to tell me that a fecking rave will be attended by anything other than mainly liberal young kids. Apparently most of of people who live in the kibbutz’s (is that a word?) near that rave are left-leaning liberals (this was news to me but gets mentioned in all the coverage - apparently the Israeli right views them with the same disdain as Trumpites think of the “liberal elite” on the US coasts)
 
TheReligion said:
I actually think public opinion in the west is not what you think.
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I'm not sure about other countries but our government has never represented public opinion on this topic. There has always been huge sympathy here for Palestinine. Frequently flags at sporting events in Dublin.
 
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