I disagree for all the reasons you wouldn't imagine possible
(tldr; They are far more impactful, the gatling did nothing much)Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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I disagree for all the reasons you wouldn't imagine possible
(tldr; They are far more impactful, the gatling did nothing much)I genuinely can not tell based on your post if you are talking about the Jewish people or the Palestinian people. All I can say is that the Jewish people were there long before any other people still extant today (in the land). Is that any comfort to the Arab peoples that took over the land and made it their home, no. And there you have the major cluster f of the region.
To be clear, because the Jews have a historic and a moral right to the land, that does not make the local invading arab populations less deserving. From their point of view they controlled the place and then they did not. They did the same in Europe so it's not new. (I am being intentionally funny here; I love my non pork eating friends)
What extreme measures did the Palestinians resort to?
It did introduce a quantum leap in force projection vis a vis cyclic rate. The first one was massively cumbersome, I totally agree.I disagree for all the reasons you wouldn't imagine possible
Know why the border was moved after 1967? Because Israel was attacked from 3 sides at the same time. It survived and pushed back the aggressors. Part of the price the attackers paid was to lose land.
So just so people know why Israel has more land after 1967; because it pushed back an attack from 3 points and it survived. And the losers, are now complain, " common...seriously...no joke..can we have the land back? Promise we not try to kill you no more!"
Then there is no discernible difference between the behaviour of Israel and the behaviour of Hamas. You got there in the end, doob.
A silly joke about our previous conversation on collateral damages.
There are roughly 700,000 settlers within the 1967 borders of Palestine. They are among the most ideologically committed Israelis. They are armed.
This solution would require their expulsion. I don't see how it is feasible for Israel to expel that large a number of Jews. (For reference, the Gaza withdrawal was 8000 settlers).
It's still the only thing the international community could get behind. Big exception is probably the golan heights which is a security nightmare for Israel to give up, but surely some quid pro quo could be found.
My bad, I've literally been working since when we were in that conversation, it felt like I was missing something. My internal compass is slightly askew!
Some of them walking into Hamas' arms, especially if they've lost so much already with no hope in sight and have seemingly nothing left to lose. Its essentially the lessons we failed to learn from the post 9/11 war on terror.
That is so depressing. But the work must begin somewhere. 700,000 settlers cannot be allowed to ruin peace for a whole region. Again, quid pro quos will be needed. But I know those settlements are often in the most strategically desirable places, uncoincidentally.
Do you mean like recently?
On the one hand, Jews have a historical claim to the land of Palestine/Israel, so it's theirs now. But on the other hand, Israel or its settlers have been on certain pieces of land since fairly recently, so it's theirs now.
Make it make sense.
Make it make sense.
So now you agree that they are human shields?
It doesn't stack up against the damage they are causing in Gaza and it's worse than a blanket cease fire for 24h, but it still seems like it's a gesture to save civilians!?
Who?
Pushed back an attack? In 1967? Apologies if I'm misunderstanding you. Can you point to exactly where these attacks were? Could you name the towns and cities that were *inside* Israel's 1967 borders that suffered these attacks?
So now you agree that they are human shields?
It doesn't stack up against the damage they are causing in Gaza and it's worse than a blanket cease fire for 24h, but it still seems like it's a gesture to save civilians!?
They are playing games and giving mix messages. They give 24 hours than a few hours later deny that they gave a timeline and know that it will take time for people to move and they give them 2 hours. It would be comical if not totally tragic.
I was just initially excited that someone got my joke.No need to apologize, you just posted a question mark.
There are ways around it if the will is there from all sides. New borders can be drawn around most of the major blocks that sit astride the 67 lines, and other land transferred to the Palestinians in exchange (the 67 lines aren't sacrosanct but a basis for negotiations). Some of the settlers could be allowed to remain in the new state, as residents of the state if they so choose. And yes there would need to be expulsions, with compensation and incentives provided by the Israeli government. Without a genuine enthusiasm for the two-state solution from both sides, none of these things can happen. But what was thought possible in the late 90s vis-a-vis the settlements hasn't necessarily become impossible in the last 20-25 in practical terms.
Jerusalem and the refugees are in my opinion a bigger stumbling block to a negotiated settlement, in the event both sides reach a point where they agree to return to the table.
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Hearing a good amount of chatter that this will kick off at midnight local time which is in less than four hours (I think?). Sooner or later we will be hearing that the kids have the sniffles...
It was always impossible to move over 1 million people in 24 hours. Imo it was just done in the hope of getting good pr in the western press.
But they couldn’t even hold themselves back for the original 24 hours.
Would seem likely to begin sooner rather than later, particularly with a few skirmishes in the north today.
None because they were successfully protected with one of the most successful pre strikes in history. The armies numbering more then 4 times that of the little Israel state put all it's enemies on it's knees. All in 6 days.
This is like the scum bag that wants to punch you, beat you, take your money, but you can see him and as he comes you tell him to f off, and as he still talks aggressive, you plant him in the sand. He then says what? I was asking for the whether or something... does not happen. Everybody knows when somebody is aggressive.
Have you ever tried googling the 6 day war?
Well the first sentence was kind of my point: if they are doing the invasion anyway, anyone who gets out in time is a win, however small.
The second sentence could very well be true, it wouldn't surprise me. Though Hamas really played into their hands in this case, by telling people to stay in place. Now Israel can claim they warned people and Hamas told people not to listen and really try to push blame to the other side.
Regarding the last sentence: I don't think this would have in any way compensated for what happened already happened and what is going to happen in Gaza either way. I was just surprised to see people attack one of the few good will gestures (even if it turns out to be entire cynical and hollow) between the two sides.
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Can you suggest some reading on this? I never think this optimistically about the impact of settlement proliferation on a 2 state solution?
It is absolutely shocking that Israel are using white phosphorus in Gaza...
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
Israel has one ambition - the genocide and complete destruction of the Palestinian people.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
Israel has one ambition - the genocide and complete destruction of the Palestinian people.
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Yes. I’ve written essays on it!
To be clear, I'm not optimistic at all. I wrote that for any of these arrangements to have a chance of working, there needs to be a genuine enthusiasm for the plan. But for me a problem greater than the practicalities with settlement building and expansion is that it completely saps the enthusiasm and trust that Palestinians could potentially place in such a plan.
So that’s very, very different from what you said in the post I replied to!
Can you explain how it's ironic that people are more outraged at the people planning to bomb and displace a million people, than the people who aren't? There are three types of irony: verbal, dramatic, and situational, though I never remember what they mean. This is a new one, though.
Less good PR and more the absolute minimum they likely have to do to abide by humanitarian law. At least, you'd hope now, there is a possibility many people are in a safer area or at least be en route there and the invasion is localizing to one area which, whilst being far from ideal, is a lot more 'fair' for the average Joe caught in a war they didn't want. Looking at Liveuamap it does seem to be concentrating.
You quoted my same post twice mate but look. I made a lot of posts to a lot o people so if I made the same mistake I understand.
If you want to take a point of discussion then please do so.
Israels coming attack on northern gaza is going to solidify BRICS no end.
Right, I guess where I'm coming from is I tend to assume that settlements and settler power in Israeli politics/demographics have now gotten to a place where a 2 state solution is impossible, though I remember the right saying that removing the settlements from Gaza would lead to hundreds or thousands of jew on jew violence deaths and that not happening when Sharon disengaged and bought off the settlers with 200K or whatever it was.
I wasn’t attempting to quote different posts, I just clicked ‘quote’ twice!
Your description of the start of the six day war was hugely inaccurate and I was just pointing that out. You then have a very different description in your next post (the bulky one). Sounded more like you were describing the Yom Kippur war initially, which was a genuine attack from 3 sides.
A few things in the past couple of hours.
- IDF announced they have made several raids into Gaza in the past 24 hours.
- Israel's Minister of Communications has announced they will stop all internet communications in Gaza beginning tomorrow (which in Gaza time is only just over 3 hours away)
- A few reports of a Reuters crew getting hit by shells in southern Lebanon.
- IDF announced they have made several raids into Gaza in the past 24 hours.
- Israel's Minister of Communications has announced they will stop all internet communications in Gaza beginning tomorrow (which in Gaza time is only just over 3 hours away)
- A few reports of a Reuters crew getting hit by shells in southern Lebanon.