Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

That_Bloke said:
I agree with you on that but in my opinion it's a bit concerning that high level representatives of a democratic government allow themselves such a discourse and even worse, that no one bats an eye. I'd expect a bit more nuance and reserve from the President of Israel.
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Fair point. Given that Israelis are almost universally in agreement about getting rid of Hamas (including left wingers), one would imagine all the politicians will as well. Even though the guy quoted can't do anything about it. Its all on Netanyahu and his defense apparatus to do that.
 
Sly said:
Doesn't apply to the government either unless you have any proof. Their government is disgusting and what they are doing with the blockade and treatment of palestinian people for decades now is unforgivable but it was Hamas who did slaughtering, it was not any Israeli government conspiracy.
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The issue with the other poster response was the insinuation that it was an anti-semitic comment. And the post you responded to was about the ability to criticize Israel without being called anti-semite.

Scarlett theory is a bit wild but it has nothing to do with someone being jewish or not, and we shouldn't jump to that kind of rhetoric whenever Israel is criticized and we disagree with the criticisms.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
No you're disgusting for supporting the carnage. I chose my words wisely. You should try doing the same.
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So now Israel is responsible for massacring 1000 of its own civilians? Is anything not Israel's fault? The contortions are something to behold.

Also it doesn't even make sense. Netanyahu is fecked now.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Usually when people say it's "difficult" they usually mean "I don't know the facts". The situation here is actually difficult I think because there is no way this ends without major loss of civilian life.

I'm going to say that the threat of attack from HAMAS has to end and the IDF need to do it. I will also say that this will come at a big, big cost of civilian life and this does not have to be so. If HAMAS wants to protect the innocent, they will get them out to the south. If they do not, then they are using them as human shield or, they are part of the movement.

There is going to be major death happening and a huge influx of points about the evil of Israel coming from this. What is important to remember is this:
-any and all countries that want to take on Palestinians have the chance to do so, but none are (the rich muslim countries).
-Israel does not need to respond to an attack; it needs to end the threat.
-the innocent Palestinians that will die, will die because they have a "government" that does not care about them, more then that, a terrorist group that wants them to die so they can point the finger.

All in all, this is a case of a population being taken hostage by a terrorist group for decades and brain washed to think that killing and murder is the only way. They will have the same faith as the zillions of german natzi members along with those that were not. It's major shi_t, but it's the price to pay for supporting a killer regime.
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sorry i thought for a second you were talking about the palestinians not the current israeli regime....

as for otheries take on the palestinians? wtf is that, your in favour of ethnic cleansing. of course you, you support zionism.

and your initial point about them being fair game if they dont evacuate from northern gaza, is pretty much the same justification hamas used to attack the villages and settlements. so your on the same wavelength and end of the moral spectrum as them. well done. two cheeks of the same arse.
 
JPRouve said:
The issue with the other poster response was the insinuation that it was an anti-semitic comment. And the post you responded to was about the ability to criticize Israel without being called anti-semite.

Scarlett theory is a bit wild but it has nothing to do with someone being jewish or not, and we shouldn't jump to that kind of rhetoric whenever Israel is criticized and we disagree with the criticisms.
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Bit wild...its 9/11 truther level of deluded
 
NicolaSacco said:
Can this be true? Surely if Hezbollah were aware then they'd have attacked from the north at the same time, to divide Israel's ability to respond and overwhelm Iron Dome even more than it has been. Unless they will do all that once Israel is knee deep in Gaza
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Oh they will. once the IDF is inside the tunnels, that so underground Gaza City which I wouldn't be surprised actually exists...
The deputy of Nassrallah, Naim Qassem, or however you spell his name,

already stated that "when the time comes, we will take part in this".
 
JPRouve said:
The issue with the other poster response was the insinuation that it was an anti-semitic comment. And the post you responded to was about the ability to criticize Israel without being called anti-semite.

Scarlett theory is a bit wild but it has nothing to do with someone being jewish or not, and we shouldn't jump to that kind of rhetoric whenever Israel is criticized and we disagree with the criticisms.
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My reaction was to this phrase "The chain of events that led up to this was planned and I wouldn't be surprised if it was orchestrated by the Israeli government just so that they can justify what's happening now." It's pretty clear what she is implying. Jewish space laser conspiracy crackpot.

Again, Israeli government deserves all the recrimination, criticism and the effort to be removed. I, as a leftie, truly dispise it and consider them war criminals. What we don't need this type of Joe roganesque, Elon muskian bs conspiracy takes.
 
Drizzle said:
So now Israel is responsible for massacring 1000 of its own civilians? Is anything not Israel's fault? The contortions are something to behold.

Also it doesn't even make sense. Netanyahu is fecked now.
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I notice a trend where anytime terrorism happens, there's almost always a conspiracy theory that the (victim nation) brought it onto themselves somehow.
 
Sly said:
My reaction was to this phrase "The chain of events that led up to this was planned and I wouldn't be surprised if it was orchestrated by the Israeli government just so that they can justify what's happening now." It's pretty clear what she is implying. Jewish space laser conspiracy crackpot.

Again, Israeli government deserves all the recrimination, criticism and the effort to be removed. I, as a leftie, truly dispise it and consider them war criminals. What we don't need this type of Joe roganesque, Elon muskian bs conspiracy takes.
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The post you responded to was about the substitution of Israel government with Jews. Surely you agree on the fact these two things are interchangeable and that doing so is absolutely dubious? And it absolutely applies to Scarlett's post even if you disagree with the theory?
 
marktan said:
Lebanon would be stupid to take part. The US has an aircraft carrier nearby. They join in they will get bombed the shit out of by the US. Countries like Saudi, UAE, even Iraq - these are bigger countries that could do something. Lebanon? It will be easy fodder for Israel and the US (and NATO it seems like now too). This isn't 2006 which was a very small war in terms of man power.
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Hezbollah aren't a conventional military you can just overwhelm with sheer attrition. They almost exclusively resort to guerilla, hit and run tactics. A US aircraft carrier isn't going to do squat against that style of warfare (as we've learned in Afghanistan, and parts of the Iraq war), unless they decide to level all of Southern Lebanon.
 
marktan said:
Lebanon would be stupid to take part. The US has an aircraft carrier nearby. They join in they will get bombed the shit out of by the US. Countries like Saudi, UAE, even Iraq - these are bigger countries that could do something. Lebanon? It will be easy fodder for Israel and the US (and NATO it seems like now too). This isn't 2006 which was a very small war in terms of man power.
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I'm not sure I trust them to act cool-headedly.
Am also not sure they care about the people of Lebanon.
Nasrallah and his folk will have their bunkers ready for a long long stay...

I'll expand for those who probably are less familiar with the terrain:

Hamas, when they don't manage to kidnap anyone, can disturb day-to-day lives in Israel for a couple of weeks top when they fire missles.
Hezbollah can do that for months and months. they won't care that southern Lebanon will get flattened, they've been there before.

Hezbollah has capabilities that Hamas doesn't, 100%. They will have missiles that can hit the power plant in Hadera (10 mins fro, where I live) which distributes electricity to the entire country. they can make some 70% percent [a wild estimation of mine] of Israelis hide in shelters daily. Israel can get completely shut down for quite some time if they join in full force.

Should that happen, and the US will 'only' aid with intelligence and ammunition, Israel will find it hard to cope.
Most of the Army, most of the special units, will be in Gaza.

We'll see.
I'm scared as hell.
 
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marktan said:
Lebanon would be stupid to take part. The US has an aircraft carrier nearby. They join in they will get bombed the shit out of by the US. Countries like Saudi, UAE, even Iraq - these are bigger countries that could do something. Lebanon? It will be easy fodder for Israel and the US (and NATO it seems like now too). This isn't 2006 which was a very small war in terms of man power.
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It wouldn't Lebanon but Hezbollah. Lebanon would only be the theater of some Hezbollah vs IDF madness.
 
Superden said:
sorry i thought for a second you were talking about the palestinians not the current israeli regime....

as for otheries take on the palestinians? wtf is that, your in favour of ethnic cleansing. of course you, you support zionism.

and your initial point about them being fair game if they dont evacuate from northern gaza, is pretty much the same justification hamas used to attack the villages and settlements. so your on the same wavelength and end of the moral spectrum as them. well done. two cheeks of the same arse.
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I will ignore most of your post because you can not even be bothered to write in a decent way, but I will respond to the bold. I support the Israel having a nation and country in the place where they lived for thousands of years; long before Islam was a thing or the wars of conquest of mohamed or the christians even.

The Levant is the birth and home of the Jews, and them having a nation there is one of the few good things the European powers did well to restore some justice.

If we were to apply today the same standard, then most of the arrab world would have to be seen as invaders. Europe itself was partily ocupaed by the "just" wars of islam (spain) and stopped at the gates of Eastern Europe in Romania. There is no more of a destructive force that justifies that in the name of a god, then Islam.
 
jackal&hyde said:
I will ignore most of your post because you can not even be bothered to write in a decent way, but I will respond to the bold. I support the Israel having a nation and country in the place where they lived for thousands of years; long before Islam was a thing or the wars of conquest of mohamed or the christians even.

The Levant is the birth and home of the Jews, and them having a nation there is one of the few good things the European powers did well to restore some justice.

If we were to apply today the same standard, then most of the arrab world would have to be seen as invaders. Europe itself was partily ocupaed by the "just" wars of islam (spain) and stopped at the gates of Eastern Europe in Romania. There is no more of a destructive force that justifies that in the name of a god, then Islam.
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Wow
 
JPRouve said:
The post you responded to was about the substitution of Israel government with Jews. Surely you agree on the fact these two things are interchangeable and that doing so is absolutely dubious? And it absolutely applies to Scarlett's post even if you disagree with the theory?
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I think @nickm wrote that hastily and didn't even do the distinction. He used the usual catchphrase. I obviously agree. Like Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians either. I better stop or she will accuse me of supporting the carnage as well.

You think that's the level of posting that helps the discourse?
 
Superden said:
so i when i mentioned allowing them to be armed, why did some of you get so triggered?

its all about the land, has always been about the land. were seeing it happen in front the worlds eyes, and our patsy politicians are going along with it.
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You suggested nukes, mate. That alone takes away any credibility to your argument.

Raoul said:
Fair point. Given that Israelis are almost universally in agreement about getting rid of Hamas (including left wingers), one would imagine all the politicians will as well. Even though the guy quoted can't do anything about it. Its all on Netanyahu and his defense apparatus to do that.
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Oh, there's no doubt about that. Hamas has to go now, there's no way back.

Yes he can't do anything about it, but he doesn't need to pour oil on an already big fire and legitimize collective punishment. That's something some rando would post on Twitter, not the discourse of a President.

It shows one thing though, Hamas really hurt them and the Gazans are going to dearly pay for it.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Usually when people say it's "difficult" they usually mean "I don't know the facts". The situation here is actually difficult I think because there is no way this ends without major loss of civilian life.

I'm going to say that the threat of attack from HAMAS has to end and the IDF need to do it. I will also say that this will come at a big, big cost of civilian life and this does not have to be so. If HAMAS wants to protect the innocent, they will get them out to the south. If they do not, then they are using them as human shield or, they are part of the movement.

There is going to be major death happening and a huge influx of points about the evil of Israel coming from this. What is important to remember is this:
-any and all countries that want to take on Palestinians have the chance to do so, but none are (the rich muslim countries).
-Israel does not need to respond to an attack; it needs to end the threat.
-the innocent Palestinians that will die, will die because they have a "government" that does not care about them, more then that, a terrorist group that wants them to die so they can point the finger.

All in all, this is a case of a population being taken hostage by a terrorist group for decades and brain washed to think that killing and murder is the only way. They will have the same faith as the zillions of german natzi members along with those that were not. It's major shi_t, but it's the price to pay for supporting a killer regime.
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This post made me vomit.
 
jackal&hyde said:
I will ignore most of your post because you can not even be bothered to write in a decent way, but I will respond to the bold. I support the Israel having a nation and country in the place where they lived for thousands of years; long before Islam was a thing or the wars of conquest of mohamed or the christians even.

The Levant is the birth and home of the Jews, and them having a nation there is one of the few good things the European powers did well to restore some justice.

If we were to apply today the same standard, then most of the arrab world would have to be seen as invaders. Europe itself was partily ocupaed by the "just" wars of islam (spain) and stopped at the gates of Eastern Europe in Romania. There is no more of a destructive force that justifies that in the name of a god, then Islam.
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So by your logic the Palestinian Arabs (Muslims and Christians like) have no place in the region because their ancestors were 'invaders', and should just make way for the true indigenous people of the region? By your logic most of Europe and North America are nothing but a hotbed of invasive colonisers who have no place living there.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Usually when people say it's "difficult" they usually mean "I don't know the facts". The situation here is actually difficult I think because there is no way this ends without major loss of civilian life.

I'm going to say that the threat of attack from HAMAS has to end and the IDF need to do it. I will also say that this will come at a big, big cost of civilian life and this does not have to be so. If HAMAS wants to protect the innocent, they will get them out to the south. If they do not, then they are using them as human shield or, they are part of the movement.

There is going to be major death happening and a huge influx of points about the evil of Israel coming from this. What is important to remember is this:
-any and all countries that want to take on Palestinians have the chance to do so, but none are (the rich muslim countries).
-Israel does not need to respond to an attack; it needs to end the threat.
-the innocent Palestinians that will die, will die because they have a "government" that does not care about them, more then that, a terrorist group that wants them to die so they can point the finger.

All in all, this is a case of a population being taken hostage by a terrorist group for decades and brain washed to think that killing and murder is the only way. They will have the same faith as the zillions of german natzi members along with those that were not. It's major shi_t, but it's the price to pay for supporting a killer regime.
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That last bit sounds dangerously close to blaming innocent civilians for the fate they've ended up with. Price to pay for supporting a killer regime? These people have been subjugated, murdered and driven from their land for over 70 years, most of them just want to have some sort of normal life but that isn't given to them by an oppressing nation with wordwide support behind them. Easy to point fingers at them and expect them turn on their own regime when everyone else has either contributed to their fate or stood by and did nothing.
 
jackal&hyde said:
I will ignore most of your post because you can not even be bothered to write in a decent way, but I will respond to the bold. I support the Israel having a nation and country in the place where they lived for thousands of years; long before Islam was a thing or the wars of conquest of mohamed or the christians even.

The Levant is the birth and home of the Jews, and them having a nation there is one of the few good things the European powers did well to restore some justice.

If we were to apply today the same standard, then most of the arrab world would have to be seen as invaders. Europe itself was partily ocupaed by the "just" wars of islam (spain) and stopped at the gates of Eastern Europe in Romania. There is no more of a destructive force that justifies that in the name of a god, then Islam.
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so you are a religous zealot then. well done. its a start.

a bit of history for you, if you want to go back to the middle ages and europe, where did the tens of thousands of jews from from Spain and Portugal in the 1490s go to for refuge ? The sephardic exodus i think its called.

i might not be able to write in a decent way, but at least i dont look to justify genocide and apartheid.
 
Sly said:
I think @nickm wrote that hastily and didn't even do the distinction. He used the usual catchphrase. I obviously agree. Like Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians either. I better stop or she will accuse me of supporting the carnage as well.

You think that's the level of posting that helps the discourse?
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I think that neither post helped and I believe that your initial stance which essentially gave a pass to nickm doesn't help either. And it wasn't wrote hastly but maliciously.
 
jackal&hyde said:
I will ignore most of your post because you can not even be bothered to write in a decent way, but I will respond to the bold. I support the Israel having a nation and country in the place where they lived for thousands of years; long before Islam was a thing or the wars of conquest of mohamed or the christians even.

The Levant is the birth and home of the Jews, and them having a nation there is one of the few good things the European powers did well to restore some justice.

If we were to apply today the same standard, then most of the arrab world would have to be seen as invaders. Europe itself was partily ocupaed by the "just" wars of islam (spain) and stopped at the gates of Eastern Europe in Romania. There is no more of a destructive force that justifies that in the name of a god, then Islam.
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This post is dogshit.

The Ancient Egyptians were in Canaan before the Jews. Why shouldn't their modern counterparts be given it using your logic?
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Oh they will. once the IDF is inside the tunnels, that so underground Gaza City which I wouldn't be surprised actually exists...
The deputy of Nassrallah, Naim Qassem, or however you spell his name,

already stated that "when the time comes, we will take part in this".
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You may well be right.

I still err on the side of it not happening, mainly due to Hezbollah losing the surprise element. Israel will be prepared and waiting, troops will be mobilised, and airlifted materiel from the US will already be in place, the exact opposite of last week.
 
That_Bloke said:
You suggested nukes, mate. That alone takes away any credibility to your argument.


Oh, there's no doubt about that. Hamas has to go now, there's no way back.

Yes he can't do anything about it, but he doesn't need to pour oil on an already big fire and legitimize collective punishment. That's something some rando would post on Twitter, not the discourse of a President.

It shows one thing though, Hamas really hurt them and the Gazans are going to dearly pay for it.
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cmon mate, the nukes bit was satirical. although there is the elephant in the room about the israeli ones...
 
jackal&hyde said:
Usually when people say it's "difficult" they usually mean "I don't know the facts". The situation here is actually difficult I think because there is no way this ends without major loss of civilian life.

I'm going to say that the threat of attack from HAMAS has to end and the IDF need to do it. I will also say that this will come at a big, big cost of civilian life and this does not have to be so. If HAMAS wants to protect the innocent, they will get them out to the south. If they do not, then they are using them as human shield or, they are part of the movement.

There is going to be major death happening and a huge influx of points about the evil of Israel coming from this. What is important to remember is this:
-any and all countries that want to take on Palestinians have the chance to do so, but none are (the rich muslim countries).
-Israel does not need to respond to an attack; it needs to end the threat.
-the innocent Palestinians that will die, will die because they have a "government" that does not care about them, more then that, a terrorist group that wants them to die so they can point the finger.

All in all, this is a case of a population being taken hostage by a terrorist group for decades and brain washed to think that killing and murder is the only way. They will have the same faith as the zillions of german natzi members along with those that were not. It's major shi_t, but it's the price to pay for supporting a killer regime.
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You're not wrong on a number of points, but the last para was unneeded imo. Many Gazans don't support Hamas and half the population are under 20, so its unhelpful to put everyone into the same category of supporting Hamas.
 
jackal&hyde said:
Usually when people say it's "difficult" they usually mean "I don't know the facts". The situation here is actually difficult I think because there is no way this ends without major loss of civilian life.

I'm going to say that the threat of attack from HAMAS has to end and the IDF need to do it. I will also say that this will come at a big, big cost of civilian life and this does not have to be so. If HAMAS wants to protect the innocent, they will get them out to the south. If they do not, then they are using them as human shield or, they are part of the movement.

There is going to be major death happening and a huge influx of points about the evil of Israel coming from this. What is important to remember is this:
-any and all countries that want to take on Palestinians have the chance to do so, but none are (the rich muslim countries).
-Israel does not need to respond to an attack; it needs to end the threat.
-the innocent Palestinians that will die, will die because they have a "government" that does not care about them, more then that, a terrorist group that wants them to die so they can point the finger.

All in all, this is a case of a population being taken hostage by a terrorist group for decades and brain washed to think that killing and murder is the only way. They will have the same faith as the zillions of german natzi members along with those that were not. It's major shi_t, but it's the price to pay for supporting a killer regime.
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What does this even mean?
 
JPRouve said:
I think that neither post helped and I believe that your initial stance which essentially gave a pass to nickm doesn't help either. And it wasn't wrote hastly but maliciously.
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Well let's see what @nickm has to say. It didn't appear malicious but that's just my interpretation. I may be wrong. What's your take on her saying that he supports the carnage? Isn't that malicious? Are we going to accuse others of anti semitism or condoning the genocide everytime we disagree with something?
 
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