Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
Yea, what transpired in the kibbutzes is horrific, and my sympathy goes out to all the victims. You'll never advance your political motives by killing innocent civilians. That's always been my viewpoint. My initial point is we've seen various unsubstantiated bollocks to make an atrocity seem worse for whatever reason (hence my point about atrocity propaganda).

The situation for Hamas fighters I can't shed light on I'm afraid. Most of my contacts in the region live in Jerusalem and Khalil. There are tunnels beneath Gaza, but how advanced they are, whether they're capable of hosting 50,000 people, and food, water, fuel etc - it sounds pretty made up, but I don't know. Whether Hamas 'cares' about Palestinians is a hard question to answer. They see themselves as the last bastion of resistance - they have a dim view of the PA for even negotiating, and it's important to remember - Hamas only came into existence because of Israeli actions. They weren't even part of the picture until the late 80s. And because they see themselves in that light, they are - without a doubt- the extreme element of Palestinian resistance. And that extreme nature comes with ugly extreme actions and reactions to Israeli ugly extreme actions and reactions.

But even if they weren't in the picture - we'd still have an extreme ugly Israel. Because they're the constant in this thing - they don't want a two state solution and they are a fascist government with a fascist Zionist agenda.
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Thank you for this. I wasn't trying to make their atrocity even worse by bringing up details of what they apparently have done there, I'm just trying to make sense of it from their point of view if the reports about the inhabitants in the kibbutzes are indeed true. Causing terror for general Israelis "makes sense"*, but targeting openly and well-known pro-Palestinians/-peace settlements does not, if you understand what I mean. Maybe I'm coming across as pedantic or something, but I just feel it's important to separate them from Palestinians now and the way forward. But anyway, the most important thing is to focus on the suffering the civilians now are experiencing.

I do agree that Israel created that beast.

*just to clarify, terror in any shape or form makes no sense at all from a human perspective.
 
Kaos said:
But Syria is a recognised nation with internationally recognised borders and Israel has still managed to annex its territory without international reprisal. So with that being a reality, what guarantees would a declared and internationally recognised Palestinian state be protected from that?
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Has Syria brought the issue forward in recent years? It feels like it has been quietly accepted by all involved parties.
 
Drizzle said:
While ending the occupation is the only answer longterm, what does that look like exactly?

It's not like Palestine will suddenly evolve into a peaceful democracy next door. It will take years of work and support from the international community. It takes a first step, and that first step has to come from Israel and the USA, and it must be reciprocated by Palestinians (but which organisation?), but this is a long and messy road with a lot of risk.

There is zero chance Israel allows a fully fledged country next door to it which is run by an islamist death cult dedicated to the eradication of Israel and all jews. Imagine what Hamas could achieve with the full apparatus and resource of statehood and full protection from Israeli control.

I'm not in any way justifying the occupation as it is unjust and brutal. But it has to end in a way that does not threaten Israel's existence. Israel cannot afford to lose a single war or they're all gone forever.
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I know it's not a real answer, but Israel quietly supported Hamas and propped them up as they knew with Hamas they would never have to go down the road to the two state solution they were heading towards under Fatah. Netanyahu's divide and conquer strategy has in part led to where we are today.

Hamas fighters need to be removed (without destroying Gaza indiscriminately). A UN peacekeeping force needs to operate in Gaza and Jerusalem and along the borders between Palestinian and Israeli territories. Free and fair elections overseen across Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinian territories need significant investment from the international community, proper infrastructure etc. They also need secure borders without settler infringements, Jerusalem needs eventually to be a neutral city state with free access to all. How you get to this point I do not know as so much blood has been spilt on both sides.

This will no doubt be called naive by some, but there are sensible people in both camps, but while Hamas run Gaza and a right wing government runs Israel neither side will let this happen.
 
Kaos said:
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i saw bits of this a few days ago, the comments are quite sick (or at least were at that point).

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shooting video: "A settler shoots a Palestinian man point blank. A soldier standing nearby does nothing. Today in the West Bank village of Twani"

 
Gehrman said:
Didnt the PLO blow up school busses, massacre israli athletes at the olympics and hijak planes? They were designated by the US as a terrorist organisation in the 80's but perhaps they arent anymore and are reformed.
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Yeah, mistake on my part, was referring to the Palestinian Authority (PA) which governs the West Bank, and is an admintrative body and not a terror group, but its in actuality controlled by Israel anyway, and is probably corrupt. They havent had an election in a very long time too.

This article goes into how non violent means of protests were also either ignored or rejected.

https://jacobin.com/2023/10/israel-western-allies-bds-palestine-nonviolent-resistance-opposition
 
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Enlightening, aggrandizing if not outright inventing alleged atrocities has been a reality of modern wars and drumming support for them. From the rape of Belgium to Kuwaiti incubators. Sometimes those allegations turn out to be entirely truthful (Katyn for instance).

We just went through a few years of public debate agonizing about fake news, the lack of skepticism of the citizens at large, etc (or in different settings, bemoaning internet mobs and doing away with presumption of innocence) but last few days on Twitter I've read quite my fair share of injunctions that one was allowed to wait even a few hours before taking at face value some specific horrific allegations. Nevermind Israeli authorities and supporters spending literal years trying denying well documented deaths they might be responsible for (Young child Mohammed Al-Dura, killed on camera, to name one).

It would be one thing if this was a plea to, let's say, channel humanitarian aid to the civilian victims of the Hamas offensive or collect support to go prosecute Hamas in La Hague. However this campaign is specifically (or majorly) designed to browbeat opinions in accepting a large scale collective punishment and devastating offensive that will no doubt claim the lives of many more civilians still.

I don't doubt Hamas attacks were accompanied by their fair shares of crimes even within the looser definition of the accepted rules of war, because it always does. That they were more numerous or heinous than even that baseline possibly because of Hamas ideology is also not exactly a reach. It's difficult nonetheless not to see the double standard at play here.
 
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berbatrick said:
i saw bits of this a few days ago, the comments are quite sick (or at least were at that point).

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shooting video: "A settler shoots a Palestinian man point blank. A soldier standing nearby does nothing. Today in the West Bank village of Twani"

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Funny thing is people will claim "oh this is a time of war and tensions are high, they are reacting to a terror attack" without knowing that this has been happening for decades to Palestinians.
 
Superden said:
werent they handing out guns to them this week?
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Regardless of our views on settlers outside recognised Israeli borders (and I guess this will be one area we'll agree on), giving them the immediate means to defend themselves is not an outrageous act given what happened last weekend.

But when they murder, drop the fecking hammer on them. Same as Hamas.
 
2cents said:
In this case “they” is Ben Gvir, and he’s one of them.
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He's also a cabinet member of the unity government and as legitimate a representative of the nation as it is possible to be.

e - by which i mean "they" was used correctly in that post

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Gehrman said:
Didnt the PLO blow up school busses, massacre israli athletes at the olympics and hijak planes? They were designated by the US as a terrorist organisation in the 80's but perhaps they arent anymore and are reformed.
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Highfather_24 said:
Yeah, mistake on my part, was referring to the Palestinian Authority (PA) which governs the West Bank, and is an admintrative body and not a terror group, but its in actuality controlled by Israel anyway, and is probably corrupt. They havent had an election in a very long time too.
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The PLO is still the sole representative of the Palestinian people on the world stage and is recognised bv the UN and has observer status in the UN General Assembly. It has certainly changed since the days of it's armed fight against Israel. It now endorses a two state solution and has recognised the statehood of Israel. It is a bit of an umbrella group under which lots of different Palestinian groups fall, with the exception of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Hamas actually broke away from Fatah in the early 2000s, Fatah is the largest group in the PLO.

The Palestinian Authority, although legally separate from the PLO is effectively part of it. It was set up as a legal authority in the Oslo Accords to govern the Palestinian Territories of Gaza and the West Bank until a full solution to the two state proposal was put in place.

This is where Israel's role in the whole thing gets very murky. Because the PA and the PLO and Fattah all endorse a two state solution, Netanyahu's government propped up Hamas, because as long as they were in control of Gaza that solution couldn't move forward, leading to the status quo of the West Bank run by Abbas, who was elected president of the PA ages ago, is head of Fatah and is also Arafat's successor as Chairman of the PLO and Gaza run by Hamas who are against any solution that recognises the sovereignty of Israel and are therefore against the two state solution.
 
berbatrick said:
He's also a cabinet member of the unity government and as legitimate a representative of the nation as it is possible to be.

e - by which i mean "they" was used correctly in that post

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Yes I wasn’t claiming different, just showing the absolute state of this Israeli government.
 
Laurencio said:
What's a sure fire way of getting NATO into a war? Use nukes. Russia wouldn't, it would be devestating for them and they would have no allies, but they need to appear as if they could do that to prevent NATO from entering the war - it's a red line in the sand. If they use nukes NATO comes, so they say they will use nukes so that NATO doesn't join the war for every small escalation. It's a threat specifially aimed at NATO and the US as deterrence.
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If you are referring to Ukraine, NATO is involved except in name. All of the majority of NATO nations are involved either by way of equipment supplies and by training Ukraine pilots and military. And as time goes on, that involvement may well increase.
 
Beachryan said:
It's so sickening. All I come back to is the original question posed last week: what did the Hamas leaders that okayed the attacks want to happen in Gaza?

All of thr posters on both sides knew from the moment the magnitude and savagery of the attack that Israel would over compensate, and the innocents would suffer. I promise you Hamas knew that too.

And yet 90% of this discussion is now against Israel. And if we're honest with ourselves, that very fact stems from the intuition that Israel shouldn't do these atrocities, but Hamas just will. That asymmetry is important.

Gazans would be better off today if not for the actions of Hamas. The agency lies at the feet of the them. Yes, Israel should choose to not react this way, but the why has everyone stopped caring about the actual cause of this escalation? This is not quotidian affairs, this is new, it is worse.
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Because Hamas is seen as a militant/terrorist organization and its actions will be evaluated on that basis.

Israel/IDF is the govt and it will be put on that pedestal.

It is not really rocket science. The burden of being civil is always on a civil govt.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Because Hamas is seen as a militant/terrorist organization and its actions will be evaluated on that basis.

Israel/IDF is the govt and it will be put on that pedestal.

It is not really rocket science. The burden of being civil is always on a civil govt.
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Yeah this complaint is incomprehensible.

Israel's entire PR/political strategy is to claim they're better and more civilized than all these people. That they are civilization fighting against stone age barbarians.

Incredibly silly to now turn around and be like "what, you expect me to be civilized?!?"
 
marktan said:
The only way this ends is when Israel annexes the whole of Gaza and the west bank and either slaughters or kicks out their whole population. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been watching the last 70 years - this is precisely what has been going on.

The political power they wield - every major western ally dying to show support; almost every Arab nation being silent - is too strong.

Anyone who believes otherwise is ignorant on the issue - blaming Hamas for fighting or blaming religion or blaming the sky is a diversion technique (and one very successfully used by Israel) - in the end Israel was always going to do what it's going to do. Incredibly ironic that people say 'oh hammas is a terrorist organisation bent on destroying israel' when Israel is exactly that to the Palestinians but with better PR. This world has gotten warped. The average layperson in the west eats up that narrative just because it's parroted 24/7 by most of the western media.

I guess the Palestinians should just accept their death / being carried of to some other land and hope the Israelis don't later decide that the puppet led nations of Jordan and Egypt have bits of land that look ripe for conquest. Wouldn't hold my breath given how easy it's been for them over the last 70 years.
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The majority of the general population aren't aware that they have illegal settlements in Syria.
 
marktan said:
The only way this ends is when Israel annexes the whole of Gaza and the west bank and either slaughters or kicks out their whole population. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been watching the last 70 years - this is precisely what has been going on
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To those that have watched the last 70 years, this is simply incorrect. They're not going to slaughter 2 million people. And Egypt is not going to take them. Nothing in the last 70 years suggests otherwise.
marktan said:
I guess the Palestinians should just accept their death / being carried of to some other land and hope the Israelis don't later decide that the puppet led nations of Jordan and Egypt have bits of land that look ripe for conquest.
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Palestinians have a right to defend themselves of course. Albeit without massacring civilians. Genuinely don't think most Israelis have any interest whatsoever in expanding into Egypt or Jordan. Israeli posters here can maybe give a more accurate response on this.
 


And there you have it - straight from the dog’s mouth. Israeli Presiden holds all of Gazan Palestinians responsible. At least some of you can stop pretending that they don’t.
 
The Corinthian said:


And there you have it - straight from the dog’s mouth. Israeli Presiden holds all of Gazan Palestinians responsible. At least some of you can stop pretending that they don’t.
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This appears from the Israeli President (who is largely ceremonial), not the PM. Although I wouldn't be surprised if most Israelis hold similar views given what happened last weekend.
 
marktan said:
The only way this ends is when Israel annexes the whole of Gaza and the west bank and either slaughters or kicks out their whole population. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not been watching the last 70 years - this is precisely what has been going on.

The political power they wield - every major western ally dying to show support; almost every Arab nation being silent - is too strong.

Anyone who believes otherwise is ignorant on the issue - blaming Hamas for fighting or blaming religion or blaming the sky is a diversion technique (and one very successfully used by Israel) - in the end Israel was always going to do what it's going to do. Incredibly ironic that people say 'oh hammas is a terrorist organisation bent on destroying israel' when Israel is exactly that to the Palestinians but with better PR. This world has gotten warped. The average layperson in the west eats up that narrative just because it's parroted 24/7 by most of the western media.

I guess the Palestinians should just accept their death / being carried of to some other land and hope the Israelis don't later decide that the puppet led nations of Jordan and Egypt have bits of land that look ripe for conquest. Wouldn't hold my breath given how easy it's been for them over the last 70 years.
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This is the end of Gaza as we know it unless the international community stands up and demands a two state solution which won’t happen. Get out or die. Thousands of new settlers will run in to rebuild and take over. The whole thing was always just a sickening land and power grab wrapped up as some idealogical struggle. Nothing more nothing less. “If I don’t steal it someone else will”
 
marktan said:
The taking of Palestinian land and expelling the population over the last 70 years. Which is precisely what has happened and is happening.
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Well, firstly the Palestinian population has risen, so the expulsions haven't been working clearly.

Secondly I seem to recall Israel actually pulled out of Gaza in 2005. History isn't working in just one direction.

I know what you're getting at, but it's way too simplistic.
 
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