Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

frostbite said:
France and Germany had many wars, millions died, but they are best friends now. Everything is possible, but both parties should really want it.
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France didn't occupy all of West Germany and systematically kick Germans out of their homes to replace them with Frenchman, and not allow those Germans how left to return to their homes. Nor did they put a complete blockade on them controlling everything that goes into the country and not giving them any freedom to trade with who they want without Frances approval. They also didn't put up blockades around the country, meaning someone in Munich would have to wait potentially half a day outside at a checkpoint before being allowed to go to Augsburg, even if it was for an emergency like hospital or even work.

That's part of a reason why Germany and France found peace but Israel and Palestine haven't.
 



”Strong memory from the West Bank 20 years ago: Villagers who told and showed how their water ran out due to nearby settlements and that the tanker they had rattled together was shot at with the good memory of the army. Just nearby, pools were being filled. … This is from today: ”
 
Unfortunately, this is in no-way comparable to France-Germany....the root cause of the feud runs much much deeper.

You see videos like this in a city like London, and you know we have problems. Looks like London has ordered closure of Jewish schools tomorrow.

"people in London tearing down “missing persons” posters with details of the 100+ Israelis in Hamas captivity"

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1712529800022106310

***it'll be nice to learn how to properly embed X posts by the way***
 
Hanks said:
Unfortunately, this is in no-way comparable to France-Germany....the root cause of the feud runs much much deeper.

You see videos like this in a city like London, and you know we have problems. Looks like London has ordered closure of Jewish schools tomorrow.

"people in London tearing down “missing persons” posters with details of the 100+ Israelis in Hamas captivity"

https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1712529800022106310?s=20

***it'll be nice to learn how to properly embed X posts by the way***
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Pintu said:
Just replace x by twitter in your link

https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1712529800022106310?s=20
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Raoul said:
Replace the x with twitter in the url.
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You then have to put it in the link thing. Click the 'chain' icon and insert otherwise it doesn't embed.

 
Withnail said:
You then have to put it in the link thing. Click the 'chain' icon and insert otherwise it doesn't embed.

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That's an organised effort it seems. Reports of the same happening at Colombia University.
 
I swear a good proportion of the Palestinian troll accounts videos are from Aleppo.

The irony that they didn't care back in 2015 but happy to use their suffering for point scoring now.
 
Hanks said:
Unfortunately, this is in no-way comparable to France-Germany....the root cause of the feud runs much much deeper.

You see videos like this in a city like London, and you know we have problems. Looks like London has ordered closure of Jewish schools tomorrow.

"people in London tearing down “missing persons” posters with details of the 100+ Israelis in Hamas captivity"

https://x.com/EylonALevy/status/1712529800022106310?s=20

***it'll be nice to learn how to properly embed X posts by the way***
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Have I lost my mind here or did France and Germany (and its predecessor states) not fight a series of increasingly destructive wars from the 1800s onwards, each one with exponentially more deaths and injuries than have happened in the entirety of the Arab-Israeli conflict?

And that's ignoring all the centuries of conflict before then?

The French and Germans have been fighting each other for far longer and at far greater Scale, then the Israelis and Palestinians have.
 
Withnail said:
You then have to put it in the link thing. Click the 'chain' icon and insert otherwise it doesn't embed.

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That's such an idiotic thing to do. Targetting powerless people that have little influence on each side leaders is the last thing you should do if you are actually advocating for peace.
 
africanspur said:
Have I lost my mind here or did France and Germany (and its predecessor states) not fight a series of increasingly destructive wars from the 1800s onwards, each one with exponentially more deaths and injuries than have happened in the entirety of the Arab-Israeli conflict?

And that's ignoring all the centuries of conflict before then?

The French and Germans have been fighting each other for far longer and at far greater Scale, then the Israelis and Palestinians have.
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I was raised and attended school in a theocratic Islamic regime ... The amount of brainwashing and nonsense they fed us at school, when I look back now, was just unbelievable.

We, in Iran, were mandated to take 3 courses which were essentially the same concept. "Religion", "Quran" and "Arabic" ... I recall one particular story our Quran teacher told us when I was in grade 6.

"There was a hardworking religious man, man of god, would do his 5 time prayers every day, wife and kids, had a ethical work, but his life situation would not improve. No matter how hard he worked, his financial outlook wouldn't get better. He would ask god after prayers what is wrong? why is he not being rewarded for his faith and hard work? and one night, in his dream he found out why. He saw flashbacks on how there is a cemetery not too far from his home, and one night a bird took a piece of bone from a deceased body, and brought it back to the bird's nest which is in the religious man's home yard/garden. The bone belonged to a man who was Jewish and not muslim, and that was the root cause that the religious man's hard work and prayers never resulted in improved financial situation. A DEAD BONE BELONGING TO A JEW WHICH WAS BROUGHT TO HIS HOME BY A BIRD"

Can you fathom the amount of non-sense and propaganda?? This religious feud goes way longer than just the Israel-Palestine issue...of course this is the main issue now, but the tribal dislike of each other (as faiths) has a much longer history.
 
In Tel Aviv on Friday, Biden’s secretary of state, Antony Blinken, told Netanyahu: “You may be strong enough on your own to defend yourselves, but as long as America exists you will never have to. We will always be there by your side.”
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All that's left is soundtrack heavy on Celine Dion
 
adexkola said:
All that's left is soundtrack heavy on Celine Dion
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Aww how sweet that he supports the ‘democracy’ where Bibi is on 3 counts of corruption charges and is entering his 17th year as PM out of the last 26.
 
Hanks said:
I was raised and attended school in a theocratic Islamic regime ... The amount of brainwashing and nonsense they fed us at school, when I look back now, was just unbelievable.

We, in Iran, were mandated to take 3 courses which were essentially the same concept. "Religion", "Quran" and "Arabic" ... I recall one particular story our Quran teacher told us when I was in grade 6.

"There was a hardworking religious man, man of god, would do his 5 time prayers every day, wife and kids, had a ethical work, but his life situation would not improve. No matter how hard he worked, his financial outlook wouldn't get better. He would ask god after prayers what is wrong? why is he not being rewarded for his faith and hard work? and one night, in his dream he found out why. He saw flashbacks on how there is a cemetery not too far from his home, and one night a bird took a piece of bone from a deceased body, and brought it back to the bird's nest which is in the religious man's home yard/garden. The bone belonged to a man who was Jewish and not muslim, and that was the root cause that the religious man's hard work and prayers never resulted in improved financial situation. A DEAD BONE BELONGING TO A JEW WHICH WAS BROUGHT TO HIS HOME BY A BIRD"

Can you fathom the amount of non-sense and propaganda?? This religious feud goes way longer than just the Israel-Palestine issue...of course this is the main issue now, but the tribal dislike of each other (as faiths) has a much longer history.
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Yeah that's great except it has nothing to do with the point and not everything is about Iran. We get it. You're not a fan of the Mullahs, Muslims or the Palestinians.

Do you think French school kids were being taught nice stories about the Germans after they'd fought the franco prussian war (almost 150k killed), WW1 (1.7 million killed) and WW2 (600k killed) within the time frame of one person's lifetime?

Have you considered that the same stories (as awful as they are) may not have been the same stories being told 100 years ago? 200? 300?
 
africanspur said:
Have I lost my mind here or did France and Germany (and its predecessor states) not fight a series of increasingly destructive wars from the 1800s onwards, each one with exponentially more deaths and injuries than have happened in the entirety of the Arab-Israeli conflict?

And that's ignoring all the centuries of conflict before then?

The French and Germans have been fighting each other for far longer and at far greater Scale, then the Israelis and Palestinians have.
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The post you're quoting may have a bit of a point if it refers to religion.
 
africanspur said:
Yeah that's great except it has nothing to do with the point and not everything is about Iran. We get it. You're not a fan of the Mullahs, Muslims or the Palestinians.

Do you think French school kids were being taught nice stories about the Germans after they'd fought the franco prussian war (almost 150k killed), WW1 (1.7 million killed) and WW2 (600k killed) within the time frame of one person's lifetime?

Have you considered that the same stories (as awful as they are) may not have been the same stories being told 100 years ago? 200? 300?
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If you seriously think early childhood brainwashing has no impact on future behavior and attitude, then perhaps best to agree to disagree and not engage. Good luck!

As for the third line, I tend to think the opposite. Overall as human beings, we are a lot more caring, compassionate and understanding in the current era (as bad as it still is) than it was centuries ago. So my default thought is, whatever the stories now, it must have been much worse before when there was a lot more tolerance and acceptance for mass villifying, and bullying.
 
do.ob said:
The post you're quoting may have a bit of a point if it refers to religion.
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Not really? Nationalism is an incredibly strong force for hatred. There's some strange recall bias here.

An 80 year old Frenchman in 1945 would have lived through and remembered 3 progressively destructive wars with Germany and Prussia, having seen literally millions of his countrymen die at their hands, vast swathes of the country lay to ruin and his country occupied.

As the allies pushed back the Germans in the mid 40s, I'm sure that 80 year old Frenchman was not thinking that the two nations were about to become allies, friends and set up an economic community together.
 
Hanks said:
If you seriously think early childhood brainwashing has no impact on future behavior and attitude, then perhaps best to agree to disagree and not engage. Good luck!

As for the third line, I tend to think the opposite. Overall as human beings, we are a lot more caring, compassionate and understanding in the current era (as bad as it still is) than it was centuries ago. So my default thought is, whatever the stories now, it must have been much worse before when there was a lot more tolerance and acceptance for mass villifying, and bullying.
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I'm not saying that it doesn't. I'm saying that i don't think that your stories about Iran are particularly helpful in talking about the Palestinian Israeli conflict or Arab Israeli conflict if you want to stretch it out.

Arabs and Israelis have made peace despite awful rhetoric elsewhere. Europeans have made peace with each other, despite becoming more proficient at killing each other at mass scale repeatedly than any other peoples at the time.

The conflicts of today are not the same as the conflicts of 200 years ago. It is ridiculous therefore to extrapolate and deduce that there was similar rhetoric hundreds of years ago. It's situation dependent and for this particular conflict, though it has sadly been overtaken by religious extremism, it is couched in national goals.
 
africanspur said:
Not really? Nationalism is an incredibly strong force for hatred. There's some strange recall bias here.

An 80 year old Frenchman in 1945 would have lived through and remembered 3 progressively destructive wars with Germany and Prussia, having seen literally millions of his countrymen die at their hands, vast swathes of the country lay to ruin and his country occupied.

As the allies pushed back the Germans in the mid 40s, I'm sure that 80 year old Frenchman was not thinking that the two nations were about to become allies, friends and set up an economic community together.
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Yet these countries found lasting peace immediately after the most destructive war of them all. Because people at some point decided that past grievances weren't worth future deaths.

Religion flips that equation on its head, because Islamists think there's some payoff for dying, it devalues life. I don't think most nationalists would deliberately provoke the certain destruction of their home and the death and suffering of their people. Just so they can massacre a 1000 Jews at random. They start wars, because they think they can win them or because it serves some strategic purpose. It takes religion to do what Hamas did.
 
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africanspur said:
I'm not saying that it doesn't. I'm saying that i don't think that your stories about Iran are particularly helpful in talking about the Palestinian Israeli conflict or Arab Israeli conflict if you want to stretch it out.

Arabs and Israelis have made peace despite awful rhetoric elsewhere. Europeans have made peace with each other, despite becoming more proficient at killing each other at mass scale repeatedly than any other peoples at the time.

The conflicts of today are not the same as the conflicts of 200 years ago. It is ridiculous therefore to extrapolate and deduce that there was similar rhetoric hundreds of years ago. It's situation dependent and for this particular conflict, though it has sadly been overtaken by religious extremism, it is couched in national goals.
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Thank you for your measured response. I really hope you’re correct.

There was lots of progress being made in the last few years between Arab nations and Israelis and the Saudi-Israeli relations normalization seemed only a matter of weeks before last Saturday.
 
do.ob said:
Yet these countries found peace immediately after the most destructive war of them all. Because people at some point decided that past grievances weren't worth future deaths.

Religion flips that equation on its head, because Islamists think there's some payoff for dying. I don't think most nationalists would deliberately provoke the certain destruction of their home and the death and suffering of their people. Just so they can massacre a 1000 Jews at random. They start wars, because they think they can win them or because it serves some strategic purpose. It takes religion to do what Hamas did.
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Yep.

Distill the ME morass down to its bare bones & it's religion. No way around that.
 
africanspur said:
Not really? Nationalism is an incredibly strong force for hatred. There's some strange recall bias here.

An 80 year old Frenchman in 1945 would have lived through and remembered 3 progressively destructive wars with Germany and Prussia, having seen literally millions of his countrymen die at their hands, vast swathes of the country lay to ruin and his country occupied.

As the allies pushed back the Germans in the mid 40s, I'm sure that 80 year old Frenchman was not thinking that the two nations were about to become allies, friends and set up an economic community together.
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He wouldn't have seen it in his time really; I don't think enemy to alliances often cross boundaries like that generationally. I could be talking out my arse and would love to read a paper on this if you know of one.

My hypothesis would be that it generally requires a general generational change of guard in the population before things shift. (ie. it took until 1963 for the first real declaration between Grance and West Germany, even with the 'scourge of communism' on the other side') - Though I may be shooting myself in the foot here as De Gaulle had served in both the 1st and 2nd world wars.
 
owlo said:
He wouldn't have seen it in his time really; I don't think enemy to alliances often cross boundaries like that generationally. I could be talking out my arse and would love to read a paper on this if you know of one.

My hypothesis would be that it generally requires a general generational change of guard in the population before things shift. (ie. it took until 1963 for the first real declaration between Grance and West Germany, even with the 'scourge of communism' on the other side') - Though I may be shooting myself in the foot here as De Gaulle had served in both the 1st and 2nd world wars.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Coal_and_Steel_Community
 
owlo said:
Was thinking more of the Elyse Treaty as friendship rather than non enemies.
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This is what it was founded on:
"The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries."

"On 11 August 1952, the United States was the first non-ECSC member to recognise the Community and stated it would now deal with the ECSC on coal and steel matters, establishing its delegation in Brussels. Monnet responded by choosing Washington, D.C. as the site of the ECSC's first external presence. The headline of the delegation's first bulletin read "Towards a Federal Government of Europe". "

I don't know what more you can expect of these people, 6 years after a world war, 2 years after (West) Germany even became a sovereign country. Trust and friendship are built and they skipped a lot of steps on that way.
 
Kaos said:
Question for those in the 'what choice does Israel have?' camp.

Hypothetically if the Palestinian resistance becomes a completely pacifist and peaceful one overnight, what do you anticipate would happen? Would the Israelis stop building illegal settlements, chipping away at Palestinian territories until there's nothing left for them to cobble together for a country to call their own? And if they don't, who's going to stop them? Are the international community going to mobilise to place sanctions and force their hand?

......
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I'd say one should Learn from history. Pacifist movements comtrary to popular belief have toppled empires, colonial rule, to dictators up to apartheid S.A. If Israeli's occupation was ever faced with a totally pacifist movement and dared continue the underhand schemes of the current right wing clique Netanyahu they'd have no where to hide and they'd lose all their allies. Without exception. No to mention face a straight up mutiny within their own borders. Right now they can hide behind the animosity of the likes of Hamas to justify the international law they break, keeping any oppostion to it in their own borders quiet thanks to the common threat faced by the excuse the evil that is Hamas provides.
 
do.ob said:
Yet these countries found lasting peace immediately after the most destructive war of them all. Because people at some point decided that past grievances weren't worth future deaths.

Religion flips that equation on its head, because Islamists think there's some payoff for dying. I don't think most nationalists would deliberately provoke the certain destruction of their home and the death and suffering of their people. Just so they can massacre a 1000 Jews at random. They start wars, because they think they can win them or because it serves some strategic purpose. It takes religion to do what Hamas did.
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Ah yep, they found peace because the good and advanced peoples of Europe decided enough was enough. Not because Germany suffered total defeat. Not because Germany was occupied, it's institutions stripped, it's military defanged and American money pumped in over decades.

The millions who died in the two preceding wars. Tolerable. WW2 was the final straw.
 
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