Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
No. I think they want to live in their own country in peace. That was obviously never in the cards with a paramilitary terrorist organization being controlled by Iran representing their interests.
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In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.

I know it is difficult to rebel against Hamas, but at this point any solution is difficult, and for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel.
 
calodo2003 said:
Has there ever been any pushback by the Palestinian populace of Gaza against Hamas in the past?
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I read there was a civil war between PLO and Hamas. And Hamas has killed many Palestinians.

But I have no idea what percentage of people in Gaza support Hamas.
 
owlo said:
Yea, it's not correct. The army seems to have crap spokespeople as well as crap intelligence, crap ethics, and crap isr. 900kg is huge, to the point its hard to think of something comparable. For reference, 2x the video above, 2x a tomahawk, or something.

I'm trying to find a video of the M118 to show it, but doesn't seem to be much as it's rather an old bomb. (Israel don't have any anyway)
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Disclaimer: I know nowt about bombs.

That said Israel seem to have a number of GBU-28s. These are apparently 4,700lb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-28
https://breakingdefense.com/2021/10/israel-to-request-americas-new-gbu-72-bunker-buster-bomb/

During this years “Guardian of the Walls” military operation in Gaza, Israeli made significant use of the GBU-28, an older 5,000 pound “bunker buster” weapon,” in order to target Hamas’ so called “Metro City” tunnel network.
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frostbite said:
for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel
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How? Threaten to throw stones at them picked from the rubble of their homes due to Israeli bombs?
 
Superden said:
I also pointed out that there's a distinct difference between sympathy and empathy. But again why let the facts get in the way.

There's plenty of posts supporting the Israeli actions.

There's the sheer hypocrisy of claiming one group are evil and barbaric whilst condoning the other side committing war crimes.
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No one has said that.
 
frostbite said:
In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.

I know it is difficult to rebel against Hamas, but at this point any solution is difficult, and for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel.
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Never going to happen. People are busy trying to not get hit by bombs, and most of the population are barely teenagers. They have no weapons and Hamas is armed to the teeth. They aren't going to start a miniature civil war with no water, no food, no sleep and bombs dropping everywhere.
 
The US government bears significant responsibility for the current situation and, as a signatory to both the Geneva conventions and Genocide Convention, has obligations under international law to prevent – not further – the commission of international crimes. Israeli government officials have spent the last year openly inciting to war crimes and encouraging settler pogroms. The Israeli military has imposed a 16-year siege on Gaza – during which it conducted six deadly military assaults against a population living in one of the most densely populated places on earth. The Biden administration has not simply been silent, it has rewarded such crimes at every turn.


Now, rather than deescalate a situation to prevent further loss of life, the most powerful countries in the world, led by the US, have communicated a carte blanche to Israelis.

This international abandonment has come regardless of which avenues Palestinians pursued: Palestinians have appealed to every international institution available, holding weekly nonviolent marches despite being met with snipers and tear gas, and leading campaigns to boycott Israeli apartheid. They have pushed every possible lever, and the US has dismissed them, impeded their efforts or restricted their protest.

Recognizing the root causes of the current violence doesn’t require condoning attacks on civilians. Offering context is not offering an excuse. On the contrary: the only way to honor the loss of life – Palestinian and Israeli – is to address its source. The US must end its complicity in Israeli apartheid, systemic oppression, military occupation and collective punishment – not double down on its support.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-israel-palestine-crisis-our-panel-weighs-in
 
I have sympathy for the victims of Hamas attack in Israel but surely the world will not just stay quite and watch Israeli military kill innocent civilians in Gaza. I doubt there are many Hamas fighters among the civilians killed in Gaza. We really need to break the cycle of violence in that region.
 
owlo said:
300kg warhead as per the articles. That's a 'bunker buster' so it's very heavy to slam through concrete and steel before exploding.
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Now I see! In which case maybe this "4,000 Tonnes" is counting the whole package rather than the payload.
 
frostbite said:
In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.
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They don't know anything. I read that most of Arab media (even Hamas' traditionnal enemies) aren't buying the narrative that Hamas would have intentionally massacred children... Most of the Israeli civilian victims are being portrayed as "settlers" or "IDF reservists".


They barely have internet or electricity. And we have to convince them that the Israeli regime, the one depriving them of water and bombing their houses and killing their children, is actually their friend...
 
Raoul said:
No. I think they want to live in their own country in peace. That was obviously never in the cards with a paramilitary terrorist organization being controlled by Iran representing their interests.
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Oh, something else too. I have never been to Israel or Gaza, but a Greek friend who has been to Gaza told me that they have fantastic beaches, better than most Greek beaches, and the whole Gaza could live just on tourism. Obviously, if the area was peaceful. It doesn't matter that Gaza is small, you do not need a huge country, in Europe there are smaller countries than Gaza. An autonomous and peaceful Gaza could become the Riviera of the Middle East. Of course, this is an impossible fantasy today.
 
entropy said:
has obligations under international law to prevent – not further – the commission of international crimes
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Only if it suits them. The narrative in the media is driven by Western interests. If the US and Europe decide to look the other way, any war crime can be brushed under the carpet. It is not like UN has any power on its own. And if any other media puts out news on war crimes, they can be denied or ignored.
 
frostbite said:
In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.

I know it is difficult to rebel against Hamas, but at this point any solution is difficult, and for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel.
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What was this possibility for peace of which you speak?

Under which circumstances do you think a peaceful resolution was possible, given what's gone on over the past 30 years?
 
frostbite said:
In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.

I know it is difficult to rebel against Hamas, but at this point any solution is difficult, and for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel.
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There was no possibility of peace in 2023. And the reason is due to what you can read in this report. For people that aren't Hamas this is the crux of the issue, that's te primary reason why peace isn't an option.
 
Withnail said:
What was this possibility for peace of which you speak?

Under which circumstances do you think a peaceful resolution was possible, given what's gone on over the past 30 years?
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France and Germany had many wars, millions died, but they are best friends now. Everything is possible, but both parties should really want it.
 
frostbite said:
In that case, now that the people in Gaza know what Hamas has done, it is possible that the Palestinians will rebel against Hamas. Because what Hamas did has practically destroyed all possibilities for peace.

I know it is difficult to rebel against Hamas, but at this point any solution is difficult, and for the people in Gaza the right thing to do in this situation is to catch all Hamas terrorists and supporters and give them to Israel.
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Should the Israelis not do the same with the fascists who made their opposition to peace with the Palestinians quite clear and support the active illegal annexation / settlement of whats left of Palestinian territories?...oh yeah, they elected them into power.....
 
frostbite said:
France and Germany had many wars, millions died, but they are best friends now. Everything is possible, but both parties should really want it.
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That's completely irrelevant and I don't see any parallels at all. As far as I'm concerned you're living in a fantasyland, I'm afraid.

You're trying to claim that there could have been peace if only Hamas didn't carry out this attack, this week.

Have Israel have ever shown any appetite for peace or a two-state solution?
 
Ekkie Thump said:
Now I see! In which case maybe this "4,000 Tonnes" is counting the whole package rather than the payload.
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Yep, I think it's a misquote + rounding up error to make it sound bigger and better(????) and scarier. (ps. they apparently only had 55 GBU28s delivered) - What they've perhaps done is taken their biggest normally used bomb which is around 900kg and multiplied it by 6000, then used short tons to make it sound better and come out with 4000 tons.

It's still a crazy off the charts number, even compared to the Iraq war and Russia in Ukraine.
 
frostbite said:
France and Germany had many wars, millions died, but they are best friends now. Everything is possible, but both parties should really want it.
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Germany were made accountable by International institutions, Israel as a country is not held accountable for breaking international laws and multilateral agreements. This is fundamental, there is no possibility of peace or any actually effective solution if one side is never accountable.
 
Simbo said:
What's this article suggesting? The Palestinian people are being held hostage by Hamas?
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It is very likely that Hamas want as many civilian casualties to,shame the Israelis… but they can’t really phisically prevent people from getting out if they are allowed to (by Israel or Egypt)
 
Pintu said:
It is very likely that Hamas want as many civilian casualties to,shame the Israelis… but they can’t really phisically prevent people from getting out if they are allowed to (by Israel or Egypt)
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The problem for both Israel and Egypt is where would they go. Neither population would countenance 2 million refugees running around (with inevitable hamas fighters hidden amongst them) - And I can't think a single other country would accept many?
 
calodo2003 said:
Any armed underground resistance of note or does Hamas have that under wraps?
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The only Gaza groups to have challenged Hamas rule in some way since they seized power have been small Salafi-Jihadi cells linked to the al Qaeda and later ISIS affiliate group in the Sinai. From what I recall there was some speculation that they received some support from Egyptian and Israeli intelligence, but this was not verified.

The other Palestinian factions have a presence in Gaza, but haven’t rocked the boat. Palestinian Islamic Jihad are probably the greatest potential long-term threat to Hamas rule as they are heavily supported by Iran (to a much greater degree than Hamas), but have tended to coordinate their operations with Hamas rather than openly challenge them.

Anyone calling for a general Gazan uprising against Hamas are living in fantasy land.
 
JPRouve said:
Germany were made accountable by International institutions, Israel as a country is not held accountable for breaking international laws and multilateral agreements. This is fundamental, there is no possibility of peace or any actually effective solution if one side is never accountable.
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Subjugating natives does generally end in peace. Just doesn't end well for the natives.
 
Right now everything is bleak. I know.

1. Never in history have the Palestinians killed so many Israelis in one day.
2. And probably, after destroying Hamas, we will say that never in history Israel has killed so many Palestinians.

I just hope that this will really be turning point for both. I am sure that Israelis will be very critical of Netanyahu, they already are. I just hope that Palestinians will also be critical of their own religious fanatics. This is stupid. This should not go on. This should be a real turning point. The good people on both sides should rebel against the idiots who promote unending hate.


( I am an atheist, and my opinion is that religion is poison, especially in the middle east. )
 
calodo2003 said:
Any armed underground resistance of note or does Hamas have that under wraps?
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It'll be difficult for Israel to even get collaborators, given the scale of the suffering they are causing in Gaza. Hamas will have eyes and ears everywhere, and far too many sympathisers for any sort of organic movement to breathe against them without being vaporized.
 
Frosty said:
I mean the Soviet threat had a big part to play in that. And masses of American money.
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The main thing was that (after millions died) people were fed up with war and decided they should just forget the past. You can always justify another war, it is hard to put an end to grievances.

(And for Israel-Palestine there is plenty of money, too. But yes, the American presence was very positive for France and Germany. )
 
Beans said:
*That's* your question after reading all that?

No, he doesn't think the entire territory was peaceful prior to the recent Hamas attack. I can't imagine what you're trying to imply.
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Oh trust me, I had many more questions. Frankly speaking, it was a lot of waffling and hot air, with little substance and moral backbone at the end. I was just trying to be nice (not that he saw my reply).

Fence sitting word smiths are annoying
 
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