Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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How is the bombing campaign 'indiscriminate?'
They aren't many because most humans aren't prepared to go that route and pay its steep price. Yet every time it has been employed the perceived opressors have never survived it, because the biggest strength of oppresssors of the occupying or colonial kind is zero dissent with in their own ranks. However Most humans back violent struggle though. Which in all honesty never truly works against an overwhelmingly superior oponent with powerful allies, who has deeply vested interest in it's position. Thus no matter how we feel for the plight of Palestinians. The violence driven deeds of the likes of Hamas do in their name will forever guarantee a constant living hell for them. For there are those who will take the very present danger Israel faces in terms of annhilation as cover to continue their unspeakble expansionist plans that serve no none but their political idealogy. Making peace in that area of the world come closer and closer to utter imposibility.
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He's a scumbag and not saying this because of a desire to help Palestinians at all.
However on this, he represents a genuine Arab fear that a Palestinian exit from these lands will prove as permanent as the one in 48 was.
That's really quite a stretch. I honestly can't think what possible examples or evidence you could have to come to that conclusion.
Accidental Braveheart.
There isn't one. The reality of the matter is that unless the "powerful allies" stop being allies and instead become arbitrators, the side that is at the opposite will be shafted and that's exactly what has happened to peaceful palestinians which is recognized by the UN.
Do you think he's looking after Egypt's national interest, or simply his own?
Jordan specifically has had a very difficult time with Palestinian refugees destabilising the country for decades, so I do get the 'national interest' angle here.
For those that are interested in the IAF's bomb rates (and types), casualties etc, here are some figures.
Bear in mind I do try to reference stuff when possible, but it's sometimes impossible. I'm also aware redcafe is a low traffic area with far less trolls and enemies so I thank you for that. (also a good place to write internal thoughts without much reaction) There's a acquaintance of mine mike (not even a jew or Israeli) on twitter who's somehow survived being an Iranian designated terrorist without worry but has had to take preventative actions against trolls.
Israel say they have dropped 6000 munitions, of which you would assume the vast majority are PGM's (Precision Guided Missiles)
- We know they are mostly PGM's because the US military has flagged that Israel are requesting different kinds of weapons from Ukraine currently, air launched PGM's instead of Artillery etc.
When I refer to CCR I mean "Civilian Casualty Ratio" - This defines how many combatants are killed vs civilians. For example, 1:5 would mean 5 Hamas terrorists killed for the cost of 1 civilian life, whereas 5:1 would indicate a cost of 5 civilians for 1 Hamas fighter. It is direct casualties only, generally.
So Israel have generally (and they have been worse and better at times, but I'll use the 2014 Gaza war as a base) been between 1:2 and 2:1, depending on whose reporting is used etc.
For comparison: In the Iraq war, the CCR was above 4:1. In Afghanistan it was 0.4:1. Vietnam was between 1:2 and 2:1
For the current conflict (And I'm not including the terrorist attackers in these figures) the CCR is likely over 10:1, which means of the 1500 casualties, only 500 or so are likely to be Hamas.
For historical figures I've mostly used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
Now, to Ordnance intensity.....
Israel have dropped 6000 bombs, likely around 70% PGMs in 4 days. This is a rate of 1500/day.
For comparison: In the 2003 invasion of Iraq, described as shock and awe... 29,200 bombs were dropped in approximately 40 days. Around 65% PGM's. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/uscentaf_oif_report_30apr2003.pdf (look at page 11) - The vast majority being 90kg~ warheads on mk82s and gbu12 (the mk82 is the unguided version of the gbu12) , as well as some larger (300kg~ i think) gbu31s. 802 Tomahawks were used. (not relevant, but they are cool.)
This is a rate of 730 bombs a day. Israel is going at more than twice the intensity of the Iraq war.
We also mentioned CCR earlier, and that it was above 4:1 in Iraq. However this was mainly due to the ground invasion; in the shock and awe phase, CCR is estimated at closer to 3:1
Israel is therefore twice as intense, and 3 times as lethal as the initial stages of the Iraq war.
Bear in mind I do try to reference stuff when possible, but it's sometimes impossible. I'm also aware redcafe is a low traffic area with far less trolls and enemies so I thank you for that. (also a good place to write internal thoughts without much reaction) There's a acquaintance of mine mike (not even a jew or Israeli) on twitter who's somehow survived being an Iranian designated terrorist without worry but has had to take preventative actions against trolls.
Israel say they have dropped 6000 munitions, of which you would assume the vast majority are PGM's (Precision Guided Missiles)
- We know they are mostly PGM's because the US military has flagged that Israel are requesting different kinds of weapons from Ukraine currently, air launched PGM's instead of Artillery etc.
When I refer to CCR I mean "Civilian Casualty Ratio" - This defines how many combatants are killed vs civilians. For example, 1:5 would mean 5 Hamas terrorists killed for the cost of 1 civilian life, whereas 5:1 would indicate a cost of 5 civilians for 1 Hamas fighter. It is direct casualties only, generally.
So Israel have generally (and they have been worse and better at times, but I'll use the 2014 Gaza war as a base) been between 1:2 and 2:1, depending on whose reporting is used etc.
For comparison: In the Iraq war, the CCR was above 4:1. In Afghanistan it was 0.4:1. Vietnam was between 1:2 and 2:1
For the current conflict (And I'm not including the terrorist attackers in these figures) the CCR is likely over 10:1, which means of the 1500 casualties, only 500 or so are likely to be Hamas.
For historical figures I've mostly used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
Now, to Ordnance intensity.....
Israel have dropped 6000 bombs, likely around 70% PGMs in 4 days. This is a rate of 1500/day.
For comparison: In the 2003 invasion of Iraq, described as shock and awe... 29,200 bombs were dropped in approximately 40 days. Around 65% PGM's. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2003/uscentaf_oif_report_30apr2003.pdf (look at page 11) - The vast majority being 90kg~ warheads on mk82s and gbu12 (the mk82 is the unguided version of the gbu12) , as well as some larger (300kg~ i think) gbu31s. 802 Tomahawks were used. (not relevant, but they are cool.)
This is a rate of 730 bombs a day. Israel is going at more than twice the intensity of the Iraq war.
We also mentioned CCR earlier, and that it was above 4:1 in Iraq. However this was mainly due to the ground invasion; in the shock and awe phase, CCR is estimated at closer to 3:1
Israel is therefore twice as intense, and 3 times as lethal as the initial stages of the Iraq war.
What's your point?
Have they developed special bombs that can target only terrorists?
It’s literally the same point as yours, with the roles reversed. How are you not getting it?
feck me I think tonight's broken me a bit. Have tried to stay clam and level-headed the last week, and generally avoided all the videos and images of destruction floating around. Am currently teaching a course on the conflict and was mediating debate between students today thinking I need to do my best to keep things sober. And now tonight I'm after making the mistake of watching footage from Gaza and interviews with grieving Israelis. And then seeing this absolute cnut Netanyahu strutting around like his shit don't stink, shaking hands with Blinken, playing the statesman. I realize it's ultimately futile to focus on individuals at the expense of the broader systematic conditions, but this man needs to fall badly, for everything he's done and everything he represents. I'm in bits here in a way I haven't been in a long long time (and to be clear, I don't have a direct stake in what's going on - can't imagine what those who do are going through).
Anyway here's a message from a coalition of Israeli human rights organizations:
Anyway here's a message from a coalition of Israeli human rights organizations:
Whataboutism then?
I’m sure the ones dropped in Iraq/Syria was more powerful and a lot of them was tomahawk missiles which are way more powerful than the ones the Israelis use on those buildings.
Eh? This isn’t something I’ve heard of, or experienced when I was in Jordan.
How is it whataboutism if I’m using your words and the same parties as you but in opposite roles? Do you not see how your comment can apply equally to Palestines?
I know - it feels disingenuous to imply a peaceful overthrow is plausible. I'm not aiming that specifically at the poster I've been replying to, rather at the Israeli politicians and the like, who use it as an excuse to keep doing what they're doing. It's transparent as fcuk. And the whole thing makes me fcuking sick. I just hope that on some small level there are people, hopefully young people, on both sides for whom this is a wake-up call. We can't continue like this.
Do you suggest that being bombed and occupied normally leads to friendship?
There were six nations, who formed the ECSC after the war, it was ratified by all their parliaments and the UK decided to stay out. And you think that can be summarized by "the USA and UK brought France along"?
Germany was occupied for decades?
And then they had enough of war and came together to build a structure that would guarantee peace in Europe and there hasn't been war between these states since.
‘Indiscriminate’ bombing denotes haphazard aim or saturation, à la carpet bombing. For all the faults of the IDF, they are still acting with constraint currently with their target selection & time given to vacate the building.
You've done so well, it's sometimes difficult to know what you're thinking. I believe your thoughts on Netanyahu resonate with a lot of Zionists* home and abroad. The anger is at Hamas now, but a strength of democracy is the ability to look inwards to our own failures. I'm in a group with many expat IDF, and not one of us are going back to Israel now, because we refuse to be a part of this. You're not alone in your grief or the inability to process every facet of this shitstorm. I posted this earlier, it's for journalists but relevant. https://dartcenter.org/content/self-care-tips-for-news-media-personnel-exposed-to-traumatic-events I've actually found that focusing on redcafe and just doing the specific data tasks requested whilst avoiding most footage has helped me.
*used in a loose way, dont jump me people.
They’re not though. They’ve killed Red Crescent staff, aid staff, journalists, women, kids. It’s indiscriminate and it’s to punish Gaza as a whole.
Probably a mixture of the two.
The situations with Jordan and Lebanon are quite different for a multitude of reasons, not least country size and population, strength of armed forced etc.
Partly because of the colonial context and partly because of history, the Arabs are quite sensitive to the idea of partition and I think the Egyptians are quite concerned that a population of millions of Palestinians in the Sinai will eventually strengthen calls for a Palestinian state to be set up there.
They didn't use many Tomahawks on ISIS. Hence the graph showing air sorties alongside weapons release.
Is it whataboutism when we are talking about the exact same conflict and the issue that concerns both sides? Fundamentally what you wrote is correct but the issue is that it applies to both sides, it's a real issue that cannot be ignored because it is in the fabric. Ignoring it is a bit daft.
My guess is he's referring to Black September: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
Directly through bombing or through collateral damage from a nearby building collapsing for example?
If it’s the former, then I obviously stand corrected.
It's not indiscriminate (obviously) - It's just lax rules for target selection and probably far less safeguards than usual. I guess you can compare it to somebody who makes 1000 pizzas a day in a fast food place vs a guy making 20 pizzas a day in an artisan store. They both want to make good pizza, but in the 1st instance time and expedience trumps the quality control that will be present in the latter.
Is the Islamic Resistance Movement driven by religion? Only god knows.
Is there a distinction when they are levelling entire neighborhoods?
The Red Crescent was intentional - I posted about it earlier. They killed 4 kids on a beach in 2015 and claimed it was collateral. That’s their playbook with these things. They killed Shireen Abu Akleh and did the same thing. It’s always collateral, in air quotes.
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Thought he was referring to something more recent.
I think we all know that if Israel was to launch a truly indiscriminate bombing campaign against Gaza, it would be short lived and there would be nothing left.
At the same time you can't call it a precision bombing campaign because Gaza's very make up makes it virtually impossible to do so.
You're in the realms of MTG conspiracy theories here. Why can't you just stop with the unsubstantiated bollocks?
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...countability-killing-four-its-paramedics-gaza
11.10.2023. The Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) condemns the intentional targeting of PRCS medical teams by Israeli occupation forces in the Gaza strip, resulting in the tragic killing of four PRCS paramedics in less than half an hour today, despite prior coordination.
PRCS demands accountability for this war crime, urging immediate investigation and justice for the victims. Targeting medical personnel is a grave breach to international humanitarian law and to humanity.
If it is directly targeted at what the IDF assesses is a legitimate target, then the bombings aren't indiscriminate; they're not tossing bombs or arty shells out there willy nilly (or indiscriminately). That's why I asked if the deaths The Corinthian mentioned were collateral damage or targeted.
If they were directly targeted by the IDF, then that's a different kettle of fish. That's an atrocity full stop.
No. I suggest that without being bombed to oblivion, the institutions purged and the country occupied, as well as huge amounts of money pumped in afterwards, the peace may not have been as lasting.
I'm not talking about the community, I'm talking about the lack of a versailles like agreement folltowing the end of the war.
They were occupied without consent for approximately a decade were they not? Then an ongoing military presence by the Americans and British after this?