Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Amir]

2M people without electricity (IDF higher-up said it's already the case), soon to be without food and water...
Just sitting there in the dark, lighting candles if they have any, waiting for the bombs to fall on them....

Let that fecking sink in.

@Amir @owlo when I put it that way,
surely this has to have some sort of affect on your hardened feelings towards all Palestinians, in the last couple of days?

This is so, so fecking insufferable for everyone involved but the leaders on both sides.

It is terrible and I feel sorry for those people, who were simply unlucky to be born in the wrong place.

But four days ago Israelis sat in saferooms, begging the army to save them while hearing terrorists in their homes trying to enter the saferoom and kill them. Many indeed died after they no longer had the physical strength to keep the door closed.

So no, I care very little for what's happening in Gaza.

 

[owlo]

2M people without electricity (IDF higher-up said it's already the case), soon to be without food and water...
Just sitting there in the dark, lighting candles if they have any, waiting for the bombs to fall on them....

Let that fecking sink in.

@Amir @owlo when I put it that way,
surely this has to have some sort of affect on your hardened feelings towards all Palestinians, in the last couple of days?

This is so, so fecking insufferable for everyone involved but the leaders on both sides.

It's brutal, looking like early stages of Russian combat. I've already said I believe we should have taken a weeks pause.

I'm hardened; their lives (brutally honest here) have been put in danger by the actions of Hamas and the continued popular support of Hamas, but I'm not genocidal.

CCR is way above where it should be. Israel are not currently doing what Israel do, they are doing what Russia do. That's scary as feck.

 

[the_cliff]

It's honestly infuriating. Anytime escalations in this conflict are covered or analysed, the clock is specifically started at the point of a Palestinian attack, completely ignoring the backdrop and events that have preceded and underlied them.

It won't end here, unfortunately.



Netanyahu can openly remove Palestine and Palestinian land of the face of the earth at a UN meeting but it is the Palestinians fault there's no peace. For context I'm against Hamas and everything they do, they are a crime and cancer to the plight of Palestine and the Palestinians but the PA have tried countless times for a two-state solution, have recognised Israel and want peace, That's not something Netanyahu wants though. He wants Palestine to cease to exist and the Palestinians either wiped off the earth or in Egypt/Jordan.

 

[Pintu]

 

[vangagal]

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

Basically, you are supporting Israel to do a genocide to Palestine. Well done. Why you are not yet banned is beyond me

 

[Kaos]

If you start a war in 73 with the goal to wipe out the country and you lose that war, are you really surprised that your opponent doesn't want to go back to how things were from a position of power? What country backs off from a position of power? If Arabs used force many times in Israel's history to wipe them from the map, why are people surprised that Israel also uses force? Do you think Israel would exist today if the Arabs had won?

All of Israel's Arab neighbours today either hold friendly diplomatic relations with them or are in the process of formalising peace talks. None of them are remotely interested in the Palestinian cause nor igniting hostilities with them. They also share the same disdain for Israel's enemy in the region - Iran.

So really it begs the question - why haven't Israel declared their borders, and why do they insist on continuing to build illegal settlements in Palestinian territories? By position of power I assume you mean it gives them carte blanche to do as their please with their colonial aspirations?

 

[TheLiverBird]

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

Israel are raining hell on innocent civilians, babies butchered by the hands of Hammas, babies blown too pieces by Israelis bombs, that’s a great way too respond isn’t it

if my 2 boys lay butchered infront of me, my first thought wouldn’t be too butcher someone else’s boys

it’s utterly insane from both sides

And Israel’s response is wreckless, of course they should defend themselves, but do your best to avoid civilian casualties which we know is impossible in war, but Israel are making no attempts to avoid civilian casualties

Taking revenge by slaughtering the wrong people ie innocent people is really learning from our past isn’t it

Keep it up Human race

 

[Simbo]

It's honestly infuriating. Anytime escalations in this conflict are covered or analysed, the clock is specifically started at the point of a Palestinian attack, completely ignoring the backdrop and events that have preceded and underlied them.

Rightly or wrongly, the events on Saturday only diminished the relevancy of anything that has gone on before, only helped justify Israel's policies. In the eyes of the world, the "ignorant and uninformed" as some may say, nothing can excuse what Hamas did.

 

[golden_blunder]

Two things stand out in all this for me.

1. The Gaza Strip is roughly the same size as the Isle of White, it’s home to 2.3 million people making it one of the most crowded places on Earth. According to the UN half of the population is under 15. Today they will run out of medicine according to the health minister and they have only hours of power left. The only way out is closed and is regularly bombed by the Israelis, they are trapped and are being flattened. In any circumstance this is inhumane.

2. The attack by Hamas was horrendous, but Hamas should not be equated with Palestinian and not every resident of Gaza should be punished so severely for the actions of Hamas. Not all Muslims were ISIS, not all Jews are extremists and not all Palestinians are Hamas.

Hamas’s actions and the Israeli response will only provoke another generation on both sides to take up arms against each other for years to come.

Yes good points. Just like in Ireland not every person was in the IRA during the troubles. It would be like Britain bombarding Dublin and turning it to rubble. Serves no purpose other than some kind of revenge, and is a call to arms for many many more people not just from Palestine

 

[hasanejaz88]

If you start a war in 73 with the goal to wipe out the country and you lose that war, are you really surprised that your opponent doesn't want to go back to how things were from a position of power? Which country backs off from a position of power? If Arabs used force many times in Israel's history to wipe them from the map, why are people surprised that Israel also uses force? Do you think Israel would exist today if the Arabs had won?

Yea I mean that's why I'm currently under a blockade in Germany where I'm not allowed to travel to any other country because France and UK is controlling our borders. That's how wars work everywhere else as well.

Oh and also everyday random French and British people are coming kicking Germans out of their home and living in them.

 

[Kaos]

Rightly or wrongly, the events on Saturday only diminished the relevancy of anything that has gone on before, only helped justify Israel's policies. In the eyes of the world, the "ignorant and uninformed" as some may say, nothing can excuse what Hamas did.

Nor should it ever be excused.

The issue however was that the suffering, humiliation and land-grab that had preceded all this had received not a smidgen of condemnation outside of niche dissenting channels. The world was happy to idly sit by as the Palestinians continue to suffer in silence, watching whatever state aspirations they had wither with each consequent settlement being built, until it reached the horrifying boiling point of what we've experienced now. You say these recent events have diminished the relevancy of all this, I'd amend by saying they were never relevant to begin with, and that's a huge part of the problem.

 

[IhabX7]

It is terrible and I feel sorry for those people, who were simply unlucky to be born in the wrong place.

But four days ago Israelis sat in saferooms, begging the army to save them while hearing terrorists in their homes trying to enter the saferoom and kill them. Many indeed died after they no longer had the physical strength to keep the door closed.

So no, I care very little for what's happening in Gaza.

I feel for them, they were simply unlucky to be born in the wrong place.

 

[Amir]

I feel for them, they were simply unlucky to be born in the wrong place.

They actually chose to live there. Believing they were safe.

 

[owlo]

Argue with Amnesty International.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

It's a descriptive not a legal definition. You can describe it as apartheid, without it being analogous.

You can have a system of apartheid (and Israel do) without being in the same situation as South Africa. You have many systems of apartheid around the world.

Apartheid definitions are borne from South Africa and don't define the hostility and lethality of the group you're dominating though. They don't look to the consequence of lifting that regime, because it was created with the MK in mind. Trying to paint the situations as the same is foolish.

Security considerations would likely play heavily into caselaw of a crime that has never actually been tried, as would offers of statehood, and any other myriad number of factors. And current circumstances (I dont think) would be counted, as it's a war.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

These are people who only a couple of hours prior to being killed, have kidnapped or aided in the kidnapping of civilians, or slaughtered children and women. They might have been the ones responsible for killing my family member. you don't need to feel sorry for me. I write it so that you remember it's real.

If killing them - while they indeed surrendered already - is a war crime, then I think this term lacks the broadness it deserves. You go and slaughter civilians in their sleep, you won't be protected by moral or judicial laws for all I care.

I'm happy to see them dead. they are no ordinary Palestinian people.

in the same (very sad and brutal) vein, I don't count on Hamas people to not shoot IDF soldiers who will invade Gaza,
even if these soldiers have surrendered their weapons and are on their knees.

it's a different ball game, sadly.

But I guess we are all free to share our thoughts and tweets about the matter, whether we live 100 meters or a continent away

 

[owlo]

Yes good points. Just like in Ireland not every person was in the IRA during the troubles. It would be like Britain bombarding Dublin and turning it to rubble. Serves no purpose other than some kind of revenge, and is a call to arms for many many more people not just from Palestine

It's rather a different situation. This is more a Grozny, Aleppo, or Bakhmut, where the only way to take the city without being slaughtered is fires.

 

[IhabX7]

They actually chose to live there. Believing they were safe.

Indeed most of them did. The other side were displaced from that same land and are now imprisoned near it. I feel your pain Amir, it's a tragedy. It's been really really hard for everyone here these last few days. I do not expect Israelis (even leftist like yourself) to lament Gaza's dead just yet, because you have a lot to deal with as is.

 

[adexkola]

Are you comparing the MK to Hamas? I don't know much about Apartheid, but I know enough that it's a stupid comparison. MK and Mandela would never have countenanced anything like this. And had they done, they'd have been wiped out with blessings.

No I never compared Hamas to the ANC or it's armed wing MK. My point was to illustrate the ability of the West to ignore blatant extreme systemic oppression when convenient, going as far as denigrating freedom fighters as terrorists. Hamas are actual terrorists. But they're not in the West Bank. What's the excuse for treating Palestinians there as inferior citizens?

On the bolded, yes I know, and you need to read up on why parallels are drawn. It's really not a lazy comparison.

 

[do.ob]

Yes good points. Just like in Ireland not every person was in the IRA during the troubles. It would be like Britain bombarding Dublin and turning it to rubble. Serves no purpose other than some kind of revenge, and is a call to arms for many many more people not just from Palestine

Israel will argue the purpose is to disarm Hamas, though the question is obviously at what price.

 

[Pintu]

These are people who only a couple of hours prior to being killed, have kidnapped or aided in the kidnapping of civilians, or slaughtered children and women.

I'm happy to see them dead. they are no ordinary Palestinian people.

This is the normal feeling. Of course I am sorry for you and for all the Israelis affected by the atrocities committed by Hamas last weekend.

However we should expect of soldiers to abide by the rules. The real justice is when these terrorists are tried and convinced, not executed and the footage doctored. You don’t want Ben Gvir and Smotrich using these framing methods against the Israeli public at some point in the future...

 

[Sky1981]

Hamas uses Civilians to push their points
Israel uses Civilians to also punish Hamas

Hamas knew full well what they're doing and the repercussion of it. Just like Israel knew full well what message they're sending.

What a clusterfeck.

 

[adexkola]

Nor should it ever be excused.

The issue however was that the suffering, humiliation and land-grab that had preceded all this had received not a smidgen of condemnation outside of niche dissenting channels. The world was happy to idly sit by as the Palestinians continue to suffer in silence, watching whatever state aspirations they had wither with each consequent settlement being built, until it reached the horrifying boiling point of what we've experienced now. You say these recent events have diminished the relevancy of all this, I'd amend by saying they were never relevant to begin with, and that's a huge part of the problem.

And if recent events cause you to say, "yeah feck all the history and context", then either your mind was already made up from the beginning, or your moral compass needs recalibration

 

[owlo]

No I never compared Hamas to the ANC or it's armed wing MK. My point was to illustrate the ability of the West to ignore blatant extreme systemic oppression when convenient, going as far as denigrating freedom fighters as terrorists. Hamas are actual terrorists. But they're not in the West Bank. What's the excuse for treating Palestinians there as inferior citizens?

On the bolded, yes I know, and you need to read up on why parallels are drawn. It's really not a lazy comparison.

I've posted about this so many times, but it's been Israeli maximalist iron wall policy since 1977 combined with Palestinian political failure to secure a state. That's fairly well recognised on both sides of the argument. Yes it's systemic oppression, but no you cannot compare it to South Africa because the security concerns are such that you couldn't not oppress safely these days. South African apartheid was mainly solved through peaceful protest, and the violence never reached the stage of an ISIS type army entrenched in a city that the oppressors could not enter without first flattening.

Can we stop with the unverified intentionally inflammatory footage please?

 

[owlo]

Hamas uses Civilians to push their points
Israel uses Civilians to also punish Hamas

Hamas knew full well what they're doing and the repercussion of it. Just like Israel knew full well what message they're sending.

What a clusterfeck.

You're right, but Israel have gone off the deep end now, and progressed to 'Get Hamas at all costs; feck the civilians.' Not only that, but they seem to have the emotional, political, and international capital for it. It's deeply scary.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Seems like a big deal, but treated like a footnote. Is this just the risk you accept when you are working for UN in Gaza?

 

[space]

End apartheid, free Palestine. So much fake news being spread around but glad to see most people, especially youth seeing things for what they are.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[owlo]

Seems like a big deal, but treated like a footnote. Is this just the risk you accept when you are working for UN in Gaza?

The UN are at fault here, they should have pulled out their staffers as soon as news of the Hamas attacks broke. Anybody leaving staff in Gaza has exposed them to a city under siege, and it's why only the most fearless of journalists and never the UN have ever covered places like Mariupol and Grozny when under siege.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[adexkola]

South African apartheid was mainly solved through peaceful protest

Ok stop, just stop

No it wasn't

 

[owlo]

Bye ben gvir and smotrich. Try to choke on the way out chumps.

 

[Pintu]

Hamas uses Civilians to push their points
Israel uses Civilians to also punish Hamas

Hamas knew full well what they're doing and the repercussion of it. Just like Israel knew full well what message they're sending.

What a clusterfeck.

We are complicit… Hamas -despite being on all our terror list for 20+ years- has been globally normalised as a de facto representative of the Palestinians… Many of our allies in the Middle Eastern have close ties with them and you never hear it mentioned. It’s accepted.

And of course our tolerance/support for Israeli expensive colonisation/apartheid policies is even more normalised and widely accepted.

 

[Dobba]

The good news just keeps on coming for Sir Keir Starmer this week.

 

[owlo]

Ok stop, just stop

No it wasn't

Yes, it was. There's been a million articles about this; most are in agreement that mainly peaceful means not insurgent ones brought an end to apartheid. Happy to point you to a few.

 

[Sly]

Are the Far right Ministers still part of the Israeli government?

 

[owlo]

We are complicit… Hamas -despite being on all our terror list for 20+ years- has been globally normalised as a de facto representative of the Palestinians… Many of our allies in the Middle Eastern have close ties with them and you never hear it mentioned. It’s accepted.

And of course our tolerance/support for Israeli expensive colonisation/apartheid policies is even more normalised and widely accepted.

Hard to do much about a group like that without doing what the Israelis are doing now.

Unfortunately terror groups often control territory; we just have to deal with it.

 

[owlo]

Are the Far right Ministers still part of the Israeli government?

Kicking them to the curb was a major condition of the opposition. So you can assume not.

 

[Sly]

Bye ben gvir and smotrich. Try to choke on the way out chumps.

Good riddance. Unfortunately Netanyahu still remains. For now. Hopefully in the future, Israelis deal with him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Yea I mean that's why I'm currently under a blockade in Germany where I'm not allowed to travel to any other country because France and UK is controlling our borders. That's how wars work everywhere else as well.

Oh and also everyday random French and British people are coming kicking Germans out of their home and living in them.

Interesting as someone in Germany you would write this given in '45 the country ceased to exist, was split up between the Allies, and was only reunited in 1990. There was literally a wall dividing Berlin that you couldn't cross as the Soviets ravaged the East while America brain drained the West. Losers in war always get completely fecked over, who knows how modern Germany would look if the Soviet Union had not collapsed.

 

[Simbo]

Nor should it ever be excused.

The issue however was that the suffering, humiliation and land-grab that had preceded all this had received not a smidgen of condemnation outside of niche dissenting channels. The world was happy to idly sit by as the Palestinians continue to suffer in silence, watching whatever state aspirations they had wither with each consequent settlement being built, until it reached the horrifying boiling point of what we've experienced now. You say these recent events have diminished the relevancy of all this, I'd amend by saying they were never relevant to begin with, and that's a huge part of the problem.

Except there is/was very large condemnation of Israel worldwide and support for the Palestinian people, we see it in the streets of Manchester/London, not too long ago there was someone on the caf asking about unfurling a Palestinian flag at a game somewhere. Just not enough support to influence Governments though I agree, and all governments worldwide know they would act in the same way.

Still, yes it shouldn't be excused, pressure should be put on Israel to do what no country has done before and show restraint.