Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Simbo]

Anyone else struggle to get anything done with these things going on in the world? It's been bad enough with Ukraine, but now this too. At least Ukraine is fairly black and white, this is all murky grey with too many blotches of black and not enough specs of white, so difficult to understand. I have a constant urge to check latest developments and try in vain to figure things out.

I know, woe me.

 

[owlo]

Didn’t you post something from Lowkey about Israel bombing the oldest church in Gaza, a claim that was subsequently debunked? Surely the fact-checking should apply to all sources, including UK-based rappers?

He posts dishonest videos all the time. The one just above from 'Torah Judaism' designed to inflame without context is months old.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is there any evidence of this yet? As far as I have seen it’s been proven to be disinformation? He says it’s increasingly looking true but I’m not sure by what metric because the last I have seen they have failed to provide any evidence or names to these 40 babies or where the massacre occurred.

Don’t think I’m condoning or excusing Hamas’ actions but a so called credible heavy weight like Andrew Neil repeating what he reads without any critical thinking is pretty disturbing.

How was it proven to be disinformation? Have you got a link?

Obviously the whole online space is a clusterfeck of lies and bullshit but I would be more inclined to believe journalists like him, as they’re much more likely than you or I to know people with legitimate expertise and insight about what happened.

 

[Mogget]

Very common in any war, it's just a modern day example of soldiers looting and pillaging - just because everything is online now doesn't really change what it is.

21st century looting and pillaging involves online deliveries. Definitely one for the hypernormalisation thread.

 

[2cents]

He's known more for his political activism now as opposed to his rap.

And if it was debunked I'm happy to delete that tweet from him.

You’re furiously posting everything that fits your agenda on here completely unfiltered, while (correctly) calling for caution from others.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Heroes

you're going too far with this one mate!
Do you know what those ultra-ultra-Orthodox believe in?

They can't give 2 shits about Palestine or anyone who isn't them.
They believe that the Israeli state was born in sin (much like you do) but the reason for it is,
that the Messiah still hasn't arrived, and he and only he is allowed to establish a Jewish state.

If their Messiah was already present and he'd have decided to still establish the Jewish state on the same land of what you refer to as Palestine, the outcome wouldn't have been any different.

If you support them in the sense that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", then okay, that's something else.

I shall also mention that early in the video someone from the protesting crowd tells the policeman "Just so you know, you're not worth anything" in the softest of voices... not everyone goes for the "you vile vile scum, may your daughter get raped etc, your family gassed" route.

mildly refreshing this,

 

[Sky1981]

This actually made me laugh for a moment, what the actual feck.

Someone from Kibbutz Be'eri, where some 11o people were slaughtered and many more apparently kidnapped,
who had his son murdered while he himself was hiding in the safe room of the house;

He says that while he was hiding the Hamas men tried unlocking the door to the safe house,
they also bought things online with his credit card
and he is now trying to cancel those deals, along with mourning his son (this in itself is also peculiar, as in, why can't he just leave it for the time being... but to judge someone in his shoes.... nah)

Can you imagine a Hamas commando soldier wasting time on such crap??

This strengthens the thinking that amongst those 'fighters' who stormed into Israel were bloody teenagers.

These happened in 1998 Indonesian riot. The commandoes lead the way, breaking in stuff and letting the footsoldier masses do the rest

 

[The Corinthian]

The point is that you could/should have fact checked that tweet before sharing. You can’t set yourself up as someone who is intent on busting all the false claims shared online, while not applying that same due diligence to content you want to be true. Which is even more ironic when you’re the person who first shares that fake news.

At the time that was what was reported across multiple sources. I can see now that the church itself published a statement yesterday - a whole 24 hours after the first tweets of it being hit.

Short of me flying out there and seeing it with my own two eyes - what do you suggest Pogue?

And I only started looking deeper on these fake claims that people have put in here as a justification to razing and eradicating Gaza and its inhabitants. Again - if you have site admins propagating claims that people are being raped next to dead bodies, and babies are getting beheaded, its a whole new spectrum of claim rather than a Church being hit. Surely someone as intelligent as yourself can understand that.

 

[The Corinthian]

You’re furiously posting everything that fits your agenda on here completely unfiltered, while (correctly) calling for caution from others.

How does one furiously post?

 

[The Corinthian]

you're going too far with this one mate!
Do you know what those ultra-ultra-Orthodox believe in?

They can't give 2 shits about Palestine or anyone who isn't them.
They believe that the Israeli state was born in sin (much like you do) but the reason for it is,
that the Messiah still hasn't arrived, and he and only he is allowed to establish a Jewish state.

If their Messiah was already present and he'd have decided to still establish the Jewish state on the same land of what you refer to as Palestine, the outcome won't have been any different.

If you support them in the sense that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", then okay, that's something else.

I'm aware of what orthodox Jews believe in - and I've actually marched alongside them in various demos in London throughout the years. But you can understand why it takes a whole new level of bravery to resist pro-Zionist IDF after what happened on Friday, and with a Palestinian flag to boot.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I'm aware of what orthodox Jews believe in - and I've actually marched alongside them in various demos in London throughout the years. But you can understand why it takes a whole new level of bravery to resist pro-Zionist IDF after what happened on Friday, and with a Palestinian flag to boot.

OK cheers, wasn't sure you were informed.

about the bravery bit, it would take bravery from me, not from them.
I'm not sure how many of them are actually fussed about getting beaten by policed, lock up etc.

from various encounters I've had with such folk, it seems like whatever happens to them in this earthly lifetime is of very very little importance.
Next world (I translate directly from Hebrew here) is where they're heads and hearts seem to be.

 

[Simbo]

How was it proven to be disinformation? Have you got a link?

There's nothing proven either way on this. Owlo mentioned there's video's doing the rounds, I've had a look in the usual depositories for that kind of stuff and can't find any. The root source of the claims are soldiers on the ground speaking to reporters. Probably best to ignore what the reporters are saying until anything is verified either way, but two separate IDF officers are on film mentioning beheadings. First one says "beheading of children & women" without mentioning numbers, 2nd one mentions beheadings without saying of who or numbers.

If true, I'd expect Israel would not confirm anything on this matter until formal identifications have taken place and families informed. Confirmed casualties from Saturday are rising so slowly because they are following this process.

 

[owlo]

I'm aware of what orthodox Jews believe in - and I've actually marched alongside them in various demos in London throughout the years. But you can understand why it takes a whole new level of bravery to resist pro-Zionist IDF after what happened on Friday, and with a Palestinian flag to boot.

You don't even seem aware that 'Orthodox Jews' don't have a monolithic set of beliefs. Your video is months old, so it's got nothing to do with Friday.

 

[owlo]

There's nothing proven either way on this. Owlo mentioned there's video's doing the rounds, I've had a look in the usual depositories for that kind of stuff and can't find any. The root source of the claims are soldiers on the ground speaking to reporters. Probably best to ignore what the reporters are saying until anything is verified either way, but two separate IDF officers are on film mentioning beheadings. First one says "beheading of children & women" without mentioning numbers, 2nd one mentions beheadings without saying of who or numbers.

If true, I'd expect Israel would not confirm anything on this matter until formal identifications have taken place and families informed. Confirmed casualties from Saturday are rising so slowly because they are following this process.

I've also mentioned that I've not personally seen them, they have not come from the usual channels one would expect, I've not had the information offered internally (I've asked one offhand question and her reply was "...") - My likely opinion based on nothing but my own thoughts and publicly available information currently is that the videos are some sort of deepfakes created by the internet, and that the 'beheadings' aren't decapitations, but stab wounds to the necks of babies. This has then been lost in translation, amplified, and the internet has ran with it. I think something is there, but not what people expect.

I know nothing. I suspect very few people know anything, and that journalists themselves have not actually seen the corpses. It will be with investigations, and released in due course.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

At the time that was what was reported across multiple sources. I can see now that the church itself published a statement yesterday - a whole 24 hours after the first tweets of it being hit.

Short of me flying out there and seeing it with my own two eyes - what do you suggest Pogue?

And I only started looking deeper on these fake claims that people have put in here as a justification to razing and eradicating Gaza and its inhabitants. Again - if you have site admins propagating claims that people are being raped next to dead bodies, and babies are getting beheaded, its a whole new spectrum of claim rather than a Church being hit. Surely someone as intelligent as yourself can understand that.

I think what the posters who're calling you out are getting at is,

that even if the claims about the beheaded babies will be verified beyond doubt,

It's not hard to imagine your next post on the subject as
"well ok, that's horrible but.... something something about the occupation, you guys still ignore this and that".

I don't think you'll have posted something like this myself, but well...

these discussions surely get people heated.

 

[The Corinthian]

You don't even seem aware that 'Orthodox Jews' don't have a monolithic set of beliefs. Your video is months old, so it's got nothing to do with Friday.

What's the evidence?

I'm well aware of Judaic orthodox beliefs on eschatology which is what the other poster was referring to.

 

[Superden]

Anyone want to see pics of babies with their arms and legs missing and half their heads bashed in as a result of getting in the way of Israeli Freedom and Peace Missiles happening to land on the school they were cowardly hiding in?

 

[Amir]

This strengthens the thinking that amongst those 'fighters' who stormed into Israel were bloody teenagers.

Apparently there were several waves of people coming from Gaza. The first waves were of terrorists. The latter ones, once the fence was clearly no obstacle, were a bunch of looters.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Apparently there were several waves of people coming from Gaza. The first waves were of terrorists. The latter ones, once the fence was clearly no obstacle, were a bunch of looters.

quite possibly, yeah.

 

[The Corinthian]

I think what the posters who're calling you out are getting at is,

that even if the claims about the beheaded babies will be verified beyond doubt,

It's not hard to imagine your next post on the subject as
"well ok, that's horrible but.... something something about the occupation, you guys still ignore this and that".

I don't think you'll have posted something like this myself, but well...

these discussions surely get people heated.

If those claims are true then I'll be the first to express my disgust and dismay that humans are capable of that. And I've said in multiple posts - me fact checking does not equate to me absolving Hamas of any / all the heinous crimes they have actually committed.

One can hold that opinion, and still condemn Israel for the crimes they commit, and the atrocities at their hands as well. It's not an either or situation.

 

[owlo]

What's the evidence?

I'm well aware of Judaic orthodox beliefs on eschatology which is what the other poster was referring to.

That police raid was in April. There are hundreds of youtube posts and videos on it.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

There's nothing proven either way on this. Owlo mentioned there's video's doing the rounds, I've had a look in the usual depositories for that kind of stuff and can't find any. The root source of the claims are soldiers on the ground speaking to reporters. Probably best to ignore what the reporters are saying until anything is verified either way, but two separate IDF officers are on film mentioning beheadings. First one says "beheading of children & women" without mentioning numbers, 2nd one mentions beheadings without saying of who or numbers.

If true, I'd expect Israel would not confirm anything on this matter until formal identifications have taken place and families informed. Confirmed casualties from Saturday are rising so slowly because they are following this process.

I'd like to strengthen this claim as someone who lives here.

people are talking about videos/images of beheaded babies and also about a pregnant woman murdered,
having her belly split open by a knife and then the fetus also stabbed to death.

I don't know of a single person who can verify watching either of such things. for the time being,
sounds like an exaggeration to me.

 

[The Corinthian]

That police raid was in April. There are hundreds of youtube posts and videos on it.

Can you show me one?

 

[Pexbo]

How was it proven to be disinformation? Have you got a link?

Obviously the whole online space is a clusterfeck of lies and bullshit but I would be more inclined to believe journalists like him, as they’re much more likely than you or I to know people with legitimate expertise and insight about what happened.

Sky News have asked the IDF to confirm the reports three times and they have declined each time. So Sky News have refused to run the story. It’s only heavily partisan, fringe or sensational media outlets who are reporting it.

 

[Laurencio]

After the dust settles there will have to be an inquiry into how on earth Hamas could plan and execute something like this in their own back yard.

 

[owlo]

Can you show me one?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=raid+Mea+Shearim+neighborhood+flags

Plenty of their activities there. There hasn't been a raid this week though. I've checked. Police have been rather busy.

Irony is; its these nutcases that keep the far right influential.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

I was just thinking that in a week, 2-3 weeks maybe,
assuming Israeli soldiers will have already invaded Gaza, and the Gazan death toll will be in the ten thousand+,
and the children will die and the neighborhoods will look like ghost towns, all of them at that.

Hamas will probably start releasing ISIS-like videos about all sorts of things being done to Israeli prisoners.
Hopefully by that time, something will have made them release the women, elderly, and children, so that they'll "only" torture men.

It'll most probably get harder and harder for any of us here, and people in general,
to still be able to hold somewhat balanced, nuanced opinions.

Emotions will rocket sky high, and people will find for themselves which direction their hearts lean toward if it's not already clear to them by now.

The worst is still ahead.

Maybe it's not the end of the world if a rocket indeed hits my little apartment

 

[Tibs]

In less than 2 hours, there will be no power in Gaza…no power, water about to run out, food about to run out, medical supplies running out, no escape root, no shelter, and thousands are about to be murdered once the ground invasion begins.

For Zionists, the Pro-Israel lobby and the Israeli sympathisers, this is the stuff dreams are made of.

Hoping the Arab nations show some balls, but we know they won’t.

 

[The Firestarter]

I was just thinking that in a week, 2-3 weeks maybe,
assuming Israeli soldiers will have already invaded Gaza, and the Gazan death toll will be in the ten thousand+,
and the children will die and the neighborhoods will look like ghost towns, all of them at that.

Hamas will probably start releasing ISIS-like videos about all sorts of things being done to Israeli prisoners.
Hopefully by that time, something will have made them release the women, elderly, and children, so that they'll "only" torture men.

It'll most probably get harder and harder for any of us here, and people in general,
to still be able to hold somewhat balanced, nuanced opinions.

Emotions will rocket sky high, and people will find for themselves which direction their hearts lean toward if it's not already clear to them by now.

The worst is still ahead.

Maybe it's not the end of the world if a rocket indeed hits my little apartment

Feck sakes this is a grim post.

 

[the_cliff]

Anyone want to see pics of babies with their arms and legs missing and half their heads bashed in as a result of getting in the way of Israeli Freedom and Peace Missiles happening to land on the school they were cowardly hiding in?

I don't think anybody wants to see that mate. But the news outlets that publish these stories need more than 'we were told there may be beheaded babies' to publish them on front page news. Especially, you know, considering tensions are already high and a full blown war in the Middle East may pop off at any minute and thousands and thousands of innocent people could end up paying for false news with their lives....

 

[Laurencio]

"Rumours about babies having their heads cut off are probably based on a misunderstanding - the reality is that they had their throats cut" BBC

Oh.. that's... better?

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Sweden announcing

"Rumours about babies having their heads cut off are probably based on a misunderstanding - the reality is that they had their throats cut" BBC

Oh.. that's... better?

Yeah, this arguing (over several pages) over semantics does seem to deflect from the real story, which is horrifying by itself.

 

[Simbo]

I'd like to strengthen this claim as someone who lives here.

people are talking about videos/images of beheaded babies and also about a pregnant woman murdered,
having her belly split open by a knife and then the fetus also stabbed to death.

I don't know of a single person who can verify watching either of such things. for the time being,
sounds like an exaggeration to me.

Yeah I heard the pregnant lady story, expecting/hoping that to be some silly misinfo, there's lots of that going round. I also listened to a guy who had just spoken to a family friend in Israel that will be burying his daughter and grand-daughter. This guy didn't appear to have an agenda, just describing the things done to them through a shaky voice... So I'm fearing the worse for stories we are yet to hear.

 

[Drizzle]

For Zionists, the Pro-Israel lobby and the Israeli sympathisers, this is the stuff dreams are made of.

Hoping the Arab nations show some balls, but we know they won’t.

There are some extremists that always dream of this, but most just want to live their lives. Yes average Israelis are probably feeling rage now, but very few wanted all this a week ago and don't pretend they did.

And you actively want Arab nations to 'show balls' and what would that achieve? A world war? Many many thousands more dead, Israeli and Arab. And peace decades further away, and Israel still there. Great stuff.

Or do you just want to see more dead Israelis and never mind the consequences? A little like Hamas then.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

In less than 2 hours, there will be no power in Gaza…no power, water about to run out, food about to run out, medical supplies running out, no escape root, no shelter, and thousands are about to be murdered once the ground invasion begins.

For Zionists, the Pro-Israel lobby and the Israeli sympathisers, this is the stuff dreams are made of.

Hoping the Arab nations show some balls, but we know they won’t.

Yes, yes. how did you know?
seeing as we're one group of people with zero differences in opinions,

you forgot to mention that I just jacked off at the thought of people having no electricity.
Let me go clean my pants which I probably have stolen from someone, right?

or am I going to far?

"Rumours about babies having their heads cut off are probably based on a misunderstanding - the reality is that they had their throats cut" BBC

Oh.. that's... better?

Apparently...

 

[Super Hans]

"Rumours about babies having their heads cut off are probably based on a misunderstanding - the reality is that they had their throats cut" BBC

Oh.. that's... better?

No. But I think certain people calculate, probably correctly, that beheadings cause more revulsion.

Seeing these reports is very upsetting. I would however, just in case there are people that think Hamas is somehow capable of worse atrocities than Jewish terrorists are, to remind people of something.

At Deir Yassin in 1948, babies were executed. Whole families were executed. Arab girls were raped and murdered. Prisoners were taken to town, paraded in trucks, then taken back and executed. The Qibya massacre? Government sanctioned with an order for "maximum killing." Homes demolished with whole families inside. 3 men that were responsible for these massacres were later elected to the office of Prime Minister of Israel.

 

[Superden]

I don't think anybody wants to see that mate. But the news outlets that publish these stories need more than 'we were told there may be beheaded babies' to publish them on front page news. Especially, you know, considering tensions are already high and a full blown war in the Middle East may pop off at any minute and thousands and thousands of innocent people could end up paying for false news with their lives....

theres actual video doing the rounds, of these poor souls being brought into gaza hospitals. not that i would want to share it.

i cant just fathom how rightfully hamas are labelled barbaric for comitting their atrocities, but the Israelies are given carte blanche and supported in committing there's.

(i think the rest of post didnt register as it alluded to previous discussions on IDF brutality on this thread, where they often blamed the victims for their inuries).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sky News have asked the IDF to confirm the reports three times and they have declined each time. So Sky News have refused to run the story. It’s only heavily partisan, fringe or sensational media outlets who are reporting it.

Ok, then. Looks like good journalism by Sky News. It obviously hasn’t been proved to be disinformation but it hasn’t been confirmed to be factual either. So best not to run with it as though it is.

Ironic to see the same guy who tweeted this was sharing disinformation himself over the last couple of days. If only he applied the same due diligence as the MSM, eh? Even the beheaded babies stuff was at least reported based on a quote from a specific named source. So a hell of a lot less fictional than a lot of the other stuff doing the rounds on Twitter.

 

[The Boy]

Two things stand out in all this for me.

1. The Gaza Strip is roughly the same size as the Isle of White, it’s home to 2.3 million people making it one of the most crowded places on Earth. According to the UN half of the population is under 15. Today they will run out of medicine according to the health minister and they have only hours of power left. The only way out is closed and is regularly bombed by the Israelis, they are trapped and are being flattened. In any circumstance this is inhumane.

2. The attack by Hamas was horrendous, but Hamas should not be equated with Palestinian and not every resident of Gaza should be punished so severely for the actions of Hamas. Not all Muslims were ISIS, not all Jews are extremists and not all Palestinians are Hamas.

Hamas’s actions and the Israeli response will only provoke another generation on both sides to take up arms against each other for years to come.