Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[adexkola]

Anyone else struggle to get anything done with these things going on in the world? It's been bad enough with Ukraine, but now this too. At least Ukraine is fairly black and white, this is all murky grey with too many blotches of black and not enough specs of white, so difficult to understand. I have a constant urge to check latest developments and try in vain to figure things out.

I know, woe me.

No it isn't.

I don't think the Internet was around in the 80s but I can clearly imagine discourse on Apartheid South Africa taking these sort of tones. "Both sides", "murky grey"... You don't sound objective, you sound ignorant (as in, you literally don't have enough knowledge on this topic) when you use those terms

Unless you're conflating Hamas to be equivalent to all Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and this exiled, no it's not "both sides" or "murky grey"

 

[Tibs]

There are some extremists that always dream of this, but most just want to live their lives. Yes average Israelis are probably feeling rage now, but very few wanted all this a week ago and don't pretend they did.

And you actively want Arab nations to 'show balls' and what would that achieve? A world war? Many many thousands more dead, Israeli and Arab. And peace decades further away, and Israel still there. Great stuff.

Or do you just want to see more dead Israelis and never mind the consequences? A little like Hamas then.

If they showed balls, then it would stop or at least reduce the Israeli crimes that have been going on well before this week, and hopefully bring people around the table to talk.

But no, let’s let things continue.

 

[owlo]

No it isn't.

I don't think the Internet was around in the 80s but I can clearly imagine discourse on Apartheid South Africa taking these sort of tones. "Both sides", "murky grey"... You don't sound objective, you sound ignorant (as in, you literally don't have enough knowledge on this topic) when you use those terms

Unless you're conflating Hamas to be equivalent to all Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and this exiled, no it's not "both sides" or "murky grey"

Conflating this conflict with SA Apartheid is vogue and all, but it's a poor comparison.

 

[Asger]

Does anyone know why the average age population in Gaza is only about 18 years old?

 

[Pexbo]

Ok, then. Looks like good journalism by Sky News. It obviously hasn’t been proved to be disinformation but it hasn’t been confirmed to be factual either. So best not to run with it as though it is.

Ironic to see the same guy who tweeted this was sharing disinformation himself over the last couple of days. If only he applied the same due diligence as the MSM, eh? Even the beheaded babies stuff was at least reported based on a quote from a specific named source. So a hell of a lot less fictional than a lot of the other stuff doing the rounds on Twitter.

I’ve no idea who tweeted that and care even less, it’s just the video clip I was interested in. My point is around Andrew Neil claiming that it’s becoming increasingly likely to be true when the opposite seems to be the case. He’s always been taken as a serious journalist despite his obvious political leanings however he seems either happy to spread potential disinformation or he’s just very sloppy.

 

[Fergies Gum]

Two things stand out in all this for me.

1. The Gaza Strip is roughly the same size as the Isle of White, it’s home to 2.3 million people making it one of the most crowded places on Earth. According to the UN half of the population is under 15. Today they will run out of medicine according to the health minister and they have only hours of power left. The only way out is closed and is regularly bombed by the Israelis, they are trapped and are being flattened. In any circumstance this is inhumane.

2. The attack by Hamas was horrendous, but Hamas should not be equated with Palestinian and not every resident of Gaza should be punished so severely for the actions of Hamas. Not all Muslims were ISIS, not all Jews are extremists and not all Palestinians are Hamas.

Hamas’s actions and the Israeli response will only provoke another generation on both sides to take up arms against each other for years to come.

Don't worry about it man. Our next PM has come out and said what Israel is doing is perfectly fine

 

[Mike Smalling]

Does anyone know why the average age population in Gaza is only about 18 years old?

I would think a combination of some very high birth rates over the last 20 years, and terrible living conditions meaning people don't really grow old.

 

[adexkola]

"Rumours about babies having their heads cut off are probably based on a misunderstanding - the reality is that they had their throats cut" BBC

Oh.. that's... better?

It's not better. A dead baby is a dead baby.

But there's no need to play dumb on this issue. We saw the reaction across the board when the initial reports of literal beheaded babies came out. It was the modern day equivalent of "Carthage Must Be Destroyed". That energy went up 2 notches after the unproven reports came out.

So it's not better, but given that unproven report had a material impact on reaction to the horrible crisis, it's appropriate that news outlets clarify that is some level of doubt to the story.

More proof of Israel lives being worth more than Palestinian lives but that's another topic

 

[Simbo]

No it isn't.

I don't think the Internet was around in the 80s but I can clearly imagine discourse on Apartheid South Africa taking these sort of tones. "Both sides", "murky grey"... You don't sound objective, you sound ignorant (as in, you literally don't have enough knowledge on this topic) when you use those terms

Unless you're conflating Hamas to be equivalent to all Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and this exiled, no it's not "both sides" or "murky grey"

Happy to be taught. All I see is a reaction to a reaction to a reaction to a reaction going all the way back to 1920 and beyond. I blame the Turks personally for letting the Brits of all people kick them out of their own back yard.

 

[Fergies Gum]

The backtracking begins by the media.

 

[adexkola]

Conflating this conflict with SA Apartheid is vogue and all, but it's a poor comparison.

Argue with Amnesty International.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

 

[Fergies Gum]

Conflating this conflict with SA Apartheid is vogue and all, but it's a poor comparison.

Well someone who knew a damn more than you do about South Africa (Mandela) clearly disagreed.

 

[adexkola]

Happy to be taught. All I see is a reaction to a reaction to a reaction to a reaction going all the way back to 1920 and beyond. I blame the Turks personally for letting the Brits of all people kick them out of their own back yard.

Understandable. And yes, the Turks and British, feck em

Look, in any conflict, the first thing any decent human being does is to call for the violence on the screen to stop. I get that urge from many, and it is valid, especially when innocent civilians are harmed/killed.

But violence isn't just murder.

There was very little traffic in this thread on Saturday or Friday but millions of Palestinians were continually being subjected to violence against personal autonomy and freedom and movement and property and life, in Gaza and in the West Bank. That was a one sided equation there. And it (with the exception of flashbacks here and there by the Palestinians) has been one sided for over 50 years.

There's way more detail of course. But you can see why calls for both sides to just stop the violence, or even worse, calls for the oppressed to stop the violence and wait for the more powerful side to have a change of heart sound incredibly ridiculous.

 

[The Corinthian]

Conflating this conflict with SA Apartheid is vogue and all, but it's a poor comparison.

Some of your former politicians, ambassadors and intelligence don't think so:

Israel imposing apartheid on Palestinians, says former Mossad chief | Palestinian territories | The Guardian
Israel is an apartheid state, say ex-Israel envoys to South Africa – Middle East Monitor

Here's some former politicians on the matter:

As Yossi Sarid, a former Israeli cabinet minister, ex-leader of the opposition, and member of the Knesset for 32 years, put it in 2008: “What acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck – it is apartheid.”

Leading Israeli politicians have warned for years that their country was sliding into apartheid. They include two former prime ministers, Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert, who can hardly be dismissed as antisemites or hating Israel.

“As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish or non-democratic,” Barak said in 2010. “If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.”

Israel’s former attorney general, Michael Ben-Yair, was even clearer.

“We established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day,” he said in 2002.

Ami Ayalon, the former head of Israel’s Shin Bet intelligence service, has said his country has “apartheid characteristics”. Shulamit Aloni, the second woman to serve as an Israeli cabinet minister after Golda Meir, and Alon Liel, Israel’s former ambassador to South Africa, both told me that their country practices a form of apartheid.

Here's some Israeli human rights organisations on the matter:

A regime of Jewish supremacy from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea: This is apartheid | B'Tselem (btselem.org)
The Occupation of the West Bank and the Crime of Apartheid: Legal Opinion - Yesh Din (yesh-din.org)

Here's some global human rights organisations on the matter:
Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International
A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW

 

[Laurencio]

No. But I think certain people calculate, probably correctly, that beheadings cause more revulsion.

Seeing these reports is very upsetting. I would however, just in case there are people that think Hamas is somehow capable of worse atrocities than Jewish terrorists are, to remind people of something.

At Deir Yassin in 1948, babies were executed. Whole families were executed. Arab girls were raped and murdered. Prisoners were taken to town, paraded in trucks, then taken back and executed. The Qibya massacre? Government sanctioned with an order for "maximum killing." Homes demolished with whole families inside. 3 men that were responsible for these massacres were later elected to the office of Prime Minister of Israel.

Personally I find it equally bad.

The second part of your post is just strange. What exactly are you hoping to argue? That all terrorists are terrible and therefore you can't get upset about terrorism? That Jews can do bad things too?

theres actual video doing the rounds, of these poor souls being brought into gaza hospitals. not that i would want to share it.

i cant just fathom how rightfully hamas are labelled barbaric for comitting their atrocities, but the Israelies are given carte blanche and supported in committing there's.

(i think the rest of post didnt register as it alluded to previous discussions on IDF brutality on this thread, where they often blamed the victims for their inuries).

You mean by the international community or by whom?

Two things stand out in all this for me.

1. The Gaza Strip is roughly the same size as the Isle of White, it’s home to 2.3 million people making it one of the most crowded places on Earth. According to the UN half of the population is under 15. Today they will run out of medicine according to the health minister and they have only hours of power left. The only way out is closed and is regularly bombed by the Israelis, they are trapped and are being flattened. In any circumstance this is inhumane.

2. The attack by Hamas was horrendous, but Hamas should not be equated with Palestinian and not every resident of Gaza should be punished so severely for the actions of Hamas. Not all Muslims were ISIS, not all Jews are extremists and not all Palestinians are Hamas.

Hamas’s actions and the Israeli response will only provoke another generation on both sides to take up arms against each other for years to come.

There is no way to stop Hamas from attacking Israel without taking military control of Gaza. It has become a problem Israel can no longer afford to ignore. They tried to contain it, they tried to instill fear, deterring attacks and they failed. Their choices are to let Gaza be and risk it being a future staging ground, remove the blockade and change tactic - but risk giving Hamas more ways of hurting them, or take complete control.

Hamas overplayed their hand, and as the "elected" government of Gaza are ultimately responsible for what their actions bring upon their people. It's not nice, it's not fair and it's not moral - it's just reality. Unfortunately that means sending soldiers into Gaza, and that means preparing the ground by bombing the place. The best we can hope for is Egypt opening the border and letting civilians flee there.

It will create another problem for Israel though, and that is a significant Arabic population that despises them, that they will now be responsible for (despite suggestions to the contrary, they currently aren't).

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

2M people without electricity (IDF higher-up said it's already the case), soon to be without food and water...
Just sitting there in the dark, lighting candles if they have any, waiting for the bombs to fall on them....

Let that fecking sink in.

@Amir @owlo when I put it that way,
surely this has to have some sort of affect on your hardened feelings towards all Palestinians, in the last couple of days?

This is so, so fecking insufferable for everyone involved but the leaders on both sides.

 

[Superden]

Personally I find it equally bad.

The second part of your post is just strange. What exactly are you hoping to argue? That all terrorists are terrible and therefore you can't get upset about terrorism? That Jews can do bad things too?



You mean by the international community or by whom?



There is no way to stop Hamas from attacking Israel without taking military control of Gaza. It has become a problem Israel can no longer afford to ignore. They tried to contain it, they tried to instill fear, deterring attacks and they failed. Their choices are to let Gaza be and risk it being a future staging ground, remove the blockade and change tactic - but risk giving Hamas more ways of hurting them, or take complete control.

Hamas overplayed their hand, and as the "elected" government of Gaza are ultimately responsible for what their actions bring upon their people. It's not nice, it's not fair and it's not moral - it's just reality. Unfortunately that means sending soldiers into Gaza, and that means preparing the ground by bombing the place. The best we can hope for is Egypt opening the border and letting civilians flee there.

It will create another problem for Israel though, and that is a significant Arabic population that despises them, that they will now be responsible for (despite suggestions to the contrary, they currently aren't).

theres an idea, why not shuttle those people living in the settlements near Gaza to Egypt! then theyll be safe from the Hamas!

 

[adexkola]

theres an idea, why not shuttle those people living in the settlements near Gaza to Egypt! then theyll be safe from the Hamas!

It's a ridiculous suggestion. Because once they leave they can't go back. They are stateless and have no right of return.

 

[nimic]

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's really not. I'm not going to excuse Israel, but Hamas purposefully use civilian buildings as weapon platforms in the most densely populated area in the world. Often times bombing a launchpad is the same as bombing a residential building or civic building. They have been found to launch rockets from schools and other vulnerable infrastructure such as hopsitals in the past.

Hamas seem to be a detestable outfit that deal only in blood and revenge, but the “it’s really not” does portray Israel as the good guys fighting the bad with nothing fishy about them at all.

On that note I came across Noam’s views on this from some years back

 

[TheLiverBird]

Neither side are coming out of this looking great

Hamas are despicable, through and through, terrorist scum but Israelis response has been equally appalling!

2 wrongs seems too be the protocol

 

[Laurencio]

theres an idea, why not shuttle those people living in the settlements near Gaza to Egypt! then theyll be safe from the Hamas!

Don't be facetious, you're welcome to suggest a realistic alternative to avoid a human tragedy. I'm well aware of the challenges they would face, but I'm mot seeing any other way to avoid massive human casualties, do you?

Hamas seem to be a detestable outfit that deal only in blood and revenge, but the “it’s really not” does portray Israel as the good guys fighting the bad with nothing fishy about them at all.

On that note I came across Noam’s views on this from some years back

They are not the good guys and I will never suggest that they are.

 

[Zen86]

It’s a conflict without a solution. Isreal can’t ever back down as for them it’s fighting an existential threat, showing weakness opens them up and they’re surrounded by enemies. And yet they can’t contain or control Gaza, rolling troops in there won’t solve anything, just result in thousands more deaths. On the other side, Hamas won’t ever back down either. They’re completely radicalised and won’t stop until Isreal has been wiped out, they won’t allow peace in any capacity. There is no peace to be had. There’s too much water under the bridge and a deep, irreparable hatred on all sides. In amongst this there are the helpless Palestinians caught in the crossfire, who will also become more radicalised as this conflict is wages on.

 

[Red in STL]

I think they should be able to have their views, but in today's day and age, employers can easily find out if they are interviewing someone who has in the past publicly expressed appalling views that if revealed could hurt their brand or else are just so offensive that they don't want them anywhere near their company.

This is something students need to remember, otherwise they'll never have a job that pays enough to pay back all those loans

 

[Ragnar123]

Neither side are coming out of this looking great
Hamas are despicable, through and through, terrorist scum but Israelis response has been equally appalling!
2 wrongs seems too be the protocol

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Hamas are despicable, but the heavy handed Israel response always seems to create more future extremists. It's an ongoing cycle that will never end, and it seems to me like Gaza/the West Bank exist purely because Israel allow them, and they could cease to exist at any point should Israel choose. It's all so depressing.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

 

[Kaos]

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

This is a very short-sighted and reductionist viewpoint. This conflict didn't start a few days ago with Hamas going on their terror rampage.

The clear issue was neither Hamas NOR the Israelis wanted peace. Israel itself is an apartheid nation, thats actively swallowing up Palestinian territories, restricting Gazans to inhumane conditions, and subjecting Palestinians all over the land to humiliation, deciding who can work, who can travel, give settlers protection and blessings to uproot Palestinians from their homes and claim them as their own, and by law making Arab Israelis second class citizens. We could perhaps start looking at that as for the underlying reasons as to why extremist factions like Hamas are able to thrive and garner so much support.

So yes, I'd expect us in the West to be able to hold Israel to account for the way they've conducted themselves over decades. We did so in Apartheid South Africa, so why the reluctance and apprehension to reprimand them?

 

[The Boy]

There is no way to stop Hamas from attacking Israel without taking military control of Gaza. It has become a problem Israel can no longer afford to ignore. They tried to contain it, they tried to instill fear, deterring attacks and they failed.

Sorry this is just wrong. Netanyahu propped up Hamas for years at the expense of Abbas in the hope it would stop any kind of Palestinian state.

Yes Hamas have done something awful now, but destroying the lives of 2.3 million people is not the answer.

 

[the_cliff]

Do you have an example of states/people in human history not taking revenge on such unbearable barbarism, especially from a position of power? Would you start peace talks if your family lies butchered in the basement? Of course it's appalling from our point of view sitting at home drinking coffee, but none of us have the moral high ground to tell Israel how to answer.

Why is this always repeated.

Peace talks between the PA and Israel have been attempted for a long time before this and each time it was Israel that refused peace. Too many times throughout history there have been attempted peace talks with a 2 state solution within the 1967 borders. It hasn't happened and will not happen. Conveniently it's Israel that daily gain more land from the Palestinians and will not rest till there's no Palestine left....

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

It’s a conflict without a solution. Isreal can’t ever back down as for them it’s fighting an existential threat, showing weakness opens them up and they’re surrounded by enemies. And yet they can’t contain or control Gaza, rolling troops in there won’t solve anything, just result in thousands more deaths. On the other side, Hamas won’t ever back down either. They’re completely radicalised and won’t stop until Isreal has been wiped out, they won’t allow peace in any capacity. There is no peace to be had. There’s too much water under the bridge and a deep, irreparable hatred on all sides. In amongst this there are the helpless Palestinians caught in the crossfire, who will also become more radicalised as this conflict is wages on.

Hamas are despicable, but the heavy handed Israel response always seems to create more future extremists. It's an ongoing cycle that will never end, and it seems to me like Gaza/the West Bank exist purely because Israel allow them, and they could cease to exist at any point should Israel choose. It's all so depressing.

100% This.

some people are seemingly quite happy with this conflict that won't end, some are rather sad. less and less are indifferent.

anyhow, this is the cold fact.

 

[Kaos]

Why is this always repeated.

Peace talks between the PA and Israel have been attempted for a long time before this and each time it was Israel that refused peace. Too many times throughout history there have been attempted peace talks with a 2 state solution within the 1967 borders. It hasn't happened and will not happen. Conveniently it's Israel that daily gain more land from the Palestinians and will not rest till there's no Palestine left....

It's honestly infuriating. Anytime escalations in this conflict are covered or analysed, the clock is specifically started at the point of a Palestinian attack, completely ignoring the backdrop and events that have preceded and underlied them.

 

[adexkola]

So yes, I'd expect us in the West to be able to hold Israel to account for the way they've conducted themselves over decades. We did so in Apartheid South Africa, so why the reluctance and apprehension to reprimand them?

Only after decades of branding the ANC as terrorists (Mandela was taken off the list in 2008) and recognizing the right of the Afrikaner regime to defend themselves , until the end of the Cold War

 

[Ragnar123]

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

True. The world is in a dark place right now and there is still room to sink. China is just biding its time before invading Taiwan.

 

[Laurencio]

Sorry this is just wrong. Netanyahu propped up Hamas for years at the expense of Abbas in the hope it would stop any kind of Palestinian state.

Yes Hamas have done something awful now, but destroying the lives of 2.3 million people is not the answer.

I never said the problem wasn't of their own creation. I don't think they should invade either, but I think they will.

 

[Kaos]

Only after decades of branding the ANC as terrorists (Mandela was taken off the list in 2008) and recognizing the right of the Afrikaner regime to defend themselves , until the end of the Cold War

And yet we've seemingly learned nothing.

 

[Superden]

Don't be facetious, you're welcome to suggest a realistic alternative to avoid a human tragedy. I'm well aware of the challenges they would face, but I'm mot seeing any other way to avoid massive human casualties, do you?



They are not the good guys and I will never suggest that they are.

Collective punishment is against all norms and ethics, that would be a start.

 

[owlo]

Only after decades of branding the ANC as terrorists (Mandela was taken off the list in 2008) and recognizing the right of the Afrikaner regime to defend themselves , until the end of the Cold War

Are you comparing the MK to Hamas? I don't know much about Apartheid, but I know enough that it's a stupid comparison. MK and Mandela would never have countenanced anything like this. And had they done, they'd have been wiped out with blessings.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I’ve no idea who tweeted that and care even less, it’s just the video clip I was interested in. My point is around Andrew Neil claiming that it’s becoming increasingly likely to be true when the opposite seems to be the case. He’s always been taken as a serious journalist despite his obvious political leanings however he seems either happy to spread potential disinformation or he’s just very sloppy.

Maybe he has sources in addition to those accessible by Sky News? The fact he says “increasingly” does imply something else in addition to the original quote everyone else is working off.

It’s also definitely possible he’s throwing shapes. Trying to seem “ITK” when he’s actually no better informed than any of the other journalists.

 

[Ragnar123]

Why is this always repeated.

Peace talks between the PA and Israel have been attempted for a long time before this and each time it was Israel that refused peace. Too many times throughout history there have been attempted peace talks with a 2 state solution within the 1967 borders. It hasn't happened and will not happen. Conveniently it's Israel that daily gain more land from the Palestinians and will not rest till there's no Palestine left....

If you start a war in 73 with the goal to wipe out the country and you lose that war, are you really surprised that your opponent doesn't want to go back to how things were from a position of power? Which country backs off from a position of power? If Arabs used force many times in Israel's history to wipe them from the map, why are people surprised that Israel also uses force? Do you think Israel would exist today if the Arabs had won?