Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

calodo2003 said:
Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
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does that make anyone living in illegal settlements, or anyone supporting an illegal occupation an acceptable target too.?
 
Pintu said:
Are you saying that heir civilian neighbours (including the kids killed in this case) are acceptable target because they happened to share a building with some militants?
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maniak said:
You think killing all those civilians, including a bunch of children, is an acceptable price?
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The Corinthian said:
They're not legitimate targets, no. Unless you give them due process, a trial and sentence and all that entails, you can't just wantonly go around bombing the shit out of blocks of flats hoping you kill a few.

At least the UK and US does its extra judicial killings on foreign soil so they can get away with it.
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Superden said:
does that make anyone living in illegal settlements, or anyone supporting an illegal occupation an acceptable target too.?
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Due to this thread primarily, I have much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause & much less so towards Israel's take on the crisis in recent years.

But, as I first stated back when the last conflagration occurred a couple of years ago, Israel isn't carpet bombing to try to eliminate leadership of their foes. It seems to be targeted towards specific buildings. The unfortunate thing will always be collateral damage & that's abhorrent, but, if the leadership is mixing in with the populace to deter an attack or a reprisal from Israel, it seems that both sides are culpable here. This is apparently leadership of the PIL & such foes will always be targeted due to their high value; that's true in all armed combat. Happens daily in Ukraine.

That's just my objective take on this issue.
 
calodo2003 said:
Due to this thread primarily, I have much more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause & much less so towards Israel's take on the crisis in recent years.

But, as I first stated back when the last conflagration occurred a couple of years ago, Israel isn't carpet bombing to try to eliminate leadership of their foes. It seems to be targeted towards specific buildings. The unfortunate thing will always be collateral damage & that's abhorrent, but, if the leadership is mixing in with the populace to deter an attack or a reprisal from Israel, it seems that both sides are culpable here. This is apparently leadership of the PIL & such foes will always be targeted due to their high value; that's true in all armed combat. Happens daily in Ukraine.

That's just my objective take on this issue.
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And what if Israel stops these bombings and avoid collateral damage altogether? Is that not an option?
 
Ragnar123 said:
What is your suggestion then to deal with terror attacks on Israel?
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Stop the colonisation, the blockade, the killings, the abductions, the torture… If that were to happen I think most Palestinians will themselves be able to get rid of anyone who wants to breach the peace.
 
VorZakone said:
I'm not quite convinced that Israel is always just "retaliating". Maybe if Israel stops, the Palestinians will stop too?
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You understand that those terror groups deny Israel's existence, right? And they are backed by Iran, that also denies Israel's right to exist. If Israel stops defending itself, it ceases to exist.
It's a very simple logic, proven by fact when all it's neighbors instantly declared war on them as soon as Israel was established.
 
Ragnar123 said:
You understand that those terror groups deny Israel's existence, right? And they are backed by Iran, that also denies Israel's right to exist. If Israel stops defending itself, it ceases to exist.
It's a very simple logic.
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But surely there is so much more at play here than Israel defending itself? Don't you think the Palestinians are defending themselves? Is Israel not to blame for anything?
 
VorZakone said:
I'm not quite convinced that Israel is always just "retaliating". Maybe if Israel stops, the Palestinians will stop too?
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This is the main reason Bibi decided to start this cycle.



His party was trailing 9 pts behind because of the “justice reform“… One week of violence and now back on top. People who were fighting his agenda are now rallying behind him.
 
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VorZakone said:
But surely there is so much more at play here than Israel defending itself? Don't you think the Palestinians are defending themselves? Is Israel not to blame for anything?
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I didn't say Israel was not to blame. I only asked for suggestions how else they can kill terrorists other than bombing their houses or having troops on the ground.
The only way to ease the situation that I personally see is, if Iranian people can overthrow that islamist regime and then those terror groups are getting no more money and arms. Without new attacks, Isreal also should stop their bombings.
But as long as Iran is backing every terror group in Palestina, the deaths on both sides will continue.
 
Pintu said:
Stop the colonisation, the blockade, the killings, the abductions, the torture… If that were to happen I think most Palestinians will themselves be able to get rid of anyone who wants to breach the peace.
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This is obviously pie in the sky delusion. Israel have all the power and guns in this relationship, so they are not going to just sit there and negotiate because Islamic Jihad are peppering their cities with rockets. They are going to do what anyone who has most of the guns and resources would, by going after the assailants before they have another chance to send more rockets into Israel
 
Ragnar123 said:
I didn't say Israel was not to blame. I only asked for suggestions how else they can kill terrorists other than bombing their houses or having troops on the ground.
The only way to ease the situation that I personally see is, if Iranian people can overthrow that islamist regime and then those terror groups are getting no more money and arms. Without new attacks, Isreal also should stop their bombings.
But as long as Iran is backing every terror group in Palestina, the deaths on both sides will continue.
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Will Israel stop with the settlements?
 
@Ragnar123 would it be ok for ukraine to kill russian commanders guilty of war crimes while they are at home, in a civilian building, killing a few children in the process?
 
Raoul said:
Ukraine analogies don’t apply to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, for obvious reasons.
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They obviously do seeing as Ukraine is now fighting for its land from an occupying force just as Palestinians once were.
 
Ragnar123 said:
What is your suggestion then to deal with terror attacks on Israel?
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You understand that in this instance there weren't attacks? And that the rocket attacks came about after the Gaza atack?

You also understand that the Israeli Government denies any Palestinian state's existence? Or that Ministers deny the existence of a Palestinian people at all?

You have also clearly justified Israel's actions and absolved blame multiple times.
 
calodo2003 said:
Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
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Nope. If Israel want to assassinate a leader of another group, on their soil, fine, they can do that.

What I'm saying is that people cannot just constantly hide behind the human shield excuse because there is not currently a war or even rocket exchange before this. He may be a militant but I assume even militants live a normal life, where they travel around to see family, eat, shit etc etc. They've made the active decision to strike while he was in a residential building, almost certainly knowing there were others in the vicinity who would die regardless, and couldn't have given a shit about that. So spare me the mention of 1000 rockets and this group being the major hurdle to peace, as if the 1000 rockets came about in a vacuum in this occasion and not because of an airstrike which also killed a bunch of civilians. 'Israel only does what any country does when atacked', a question apparently not extending to Gazans.


groovyalbert said:
I guess it depends on how you fundamentally regard these groups.

If you think the likes of Palestinian Islamic Jihad are legitimate and pose no threat to the lives of civilians in either Palestine or Israel, I guess you're depiction would be fair.

If, however, you regard these groups as militant terrorist organizations funded and propped up by a rogue and dangerous regime in Iran, then I guess it is different.

Fundamentally, you're right though - the death of civilians and especially children is the greatest tragedy in all this, and everyone contributing to this situation should be held to account as highly as possible.
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Or if you think that Palestinian children are acceptable collateral because well, they're Palestinian, I guess you can probably justify almost anything. Makes it easier to feel OK about the air strikes, the forced expulsions, the settlements and everything else I suppose.
 
Raoul said:
There are none. Just like every situation, this one has to be evaluated on its own unique merits and all the specific players involved.
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Both Israel and Ukraine think military criminal players from an adversary nation should be eliminated. How is it different?

It's really not, and deep down we all know that if Ukraine behaved like Israel, if they bombed a civilian building in russia killing a bunch of children and then act all happy because a russian commander was killed, they would start losing support the very next day. That's why @Ragnar123 will probably not answer my question and you're finding ways to talk your way out of admitting something obvious.
 
maniak said:
Both Israel and Ukraine think military criminal players from an adversary nation should be eliminated. How is it different?

It's really not, and deep down we all know that if Ukraine behaved like Israel, if they bombed a civilian building in russia killing a bunch of children and then act all happy because a russian commander was killed, they would start losing support the very next day. That's why @Ragnar123 will probably not answer my question and you're finding ways to talk your way out of admitting something obvious.
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That's literally every country seeking to protect itself and is a bit like saying nations or groups at war with one another do bad things to the other side.

The players in the Ukraine-Russia conflict are obviously quite different. There are multiple nuclear powers involved, including the two nations with the biggest stockpile of nukes in the world with the relevance of NATO, the EU, and the entire post WW2 global order hanging in the balance. That is obviously light years different than a couple of tiny factions of messianic fanatics squabbling about a sliver of ancient desert land.
 
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Raoul said:
That's literally every country seeking to protect itself and is a bit like saying nations or groups at war with one another do bad things to the other side.

The players in the Ukraine-Russia conflict are obviously quite different. There are multiple nuclear powers involved, including the two nations with the biggest stockpile of nukes in the world with the relevance of NATO, the EU, and the entire post WW2 global order hanging in the balance. That is obviously light years different than a couple of tiny factions of messianic fanatics squabbling about a sliver of ancient desert land.
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Why are you trying to talk about the global conflict when I'm asking a very specific question about a specific action?

If Ukraine has the chance to eliminate a russian target and in the process kill a couple dozen civilians including a handful of children, should they do it? Yes or no? It's a really simple question...

The vast majority of people would not hesitate to answer no, but somehow when it comes to Israel killing palestinian children, those same people twist themselves into pretzels to try to justify it.
 
maniak said:
Why are you trying to talk about the global conflict when I'm asking a very specific question about a specific action?

If Ukraine has the chance to eliminate a russian target and in the process kill a couple dozen civilians including a handful of children, should they do it? Yes or no? It's a really simple question...

The vast majority of people would not hesitate to answer no, but somehow when it comes to Israel killing palestinian children, those same people twist themselves into pretzels to try to justify it.
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Because the dynamics between Ukraine and other conflicts are different. Therefore the micro level actions being undertaken on the ground will be viewed based on different criteria. Whether you like it or not, the humanitarian question of civilians dying will not receive the same level of importance from one conflict to another because the geopolitical importance of each conflict is different.
 
Raoul said:
Because the dynamics between Ukraine and other conflicts are different. Therefore the micro level actions being undertaken on the ground will be viewed based on different criteria. Whether you like it or not, the humanitarian question of civilians dying will not receive the same level of importance from one conflict to another because the geopolitical importance of each conflict is different.
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That's why I'm not talking about geopolitics, I am asking individual people on a forum what they would do. I guess dodging the question is an answer in itself.
 
maniak said:
That's why I'm not talking about geopolitics, I am asking individual people on a forum what they would do. I guess dodging the question is an answer in itself.
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If you're asking whether the deaths of innocent civilians in war is wrong, I think most would agree with you. If you're trying to expose some sort of double standard between Israel and Ukraine, then you're not really going to be proving anything because every conflict is different, which means it will be framed differently be those who cover it in the media.
 
maniak said:
That's why I'm not talking about geopolitics, I am asking individual people on a forum what they would do. I guess dodging the question is an answer in itself.
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Oh there's a backlog of posts if you so wish to see peoples true opinions. It's a minefield of hypocrisy and double standards.
 
Again and again we are reminded about groups denying Israels right to exist making them fair game for being attacked. The same people that scream anti semitism when someone questions Israels right to exist as a state have no issue regurgitating nonsense about when and where in history the notion of Palestine comes from.
 
Superden said:
Again and again we are reminded about groups denying Israels right to exist making them fair game for being attacked. The same people that scream anti semitism when someone questions Israels right to exist as a state have no issue regurgitating nonsense about when and where in history the notion of Palestine comes from.
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The irony of calling out people for refusing Israel's right to exist and then questioning the right of Palestinians in the same paragraph.
 
Raoul said:
If you're asking whether the deaths of innocent civilians in war is wrong, I think most would agree with you. If you're trying to expose some sort of double standard between Israel and Ukraine, then you're not really going to be proving anything because every conflict is different, which means it will be framed differently be those who cover it in the media.
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I'm not trying to expose a double standard between countries or in the media, but from people in the same forum. How can someone go to the ukraine thread and say feck russians for hitting a residential building and then come here and find endless excuses for what israel does?

"Oh but here israel is killing terrorist commanders" or whatever. If you think that's a good excuse to kill civilians and so many fecking children, then your moral compass is not broken, it's absolutely shattered.
 
Smores said:
Oh there's a backlog of posts if you so wish to see peoples true opinions. It's a minefield of hypocrisy and double standards.
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To be honest I shouldn't come to this thread as often, it just upsets me too much seeing all the social media posts of dead children.
 
maniak said:
I'm not trying to expose a double standard between countries or in the media, but from people in the same forum. How can someone go to the ukraine thread and say feck russians for hitting a residential building and then come here and find endless excuses for what israel does?
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Because the Russians are doing it intentionally to kill civilians. It is part of their ROE. The Israelis are targeting actual Palestinian militants they deem to be attacking Israel (or plotting to do so). I thought this was evident.
 
Raoul said:
Because the Russians are doing it intentionally to kill civilians. It is part of their ROE. The Israelis are targeting actual Palestinian militants they deem to be attacking Israel (or plotting to do so). I thought this was evident.
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Israelis know for a fact they will kill civilians. I don't give two fecks about the intentions when the result is the same and known in advance.

But I guess this answers my initial question, you find it acceptable to kill a few children and civilians if the result is a dead militant.
 
Raoul said:
Because the Russians are doing it intentionally to kill civilians. It is part of their ROE. The Israelis are targeting actual Palestinian militants they deem to be attacking Israel (or plotting to do so). I thought this was evident.
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And the journalists? Are they fair game?
 
maniak said:
Israelis know for a fact they will kill civilians. I don't give two fecks about the intentions when the result is the same and known in advance.

But I guess this answers my initial question, you find it acceptable to kill a few children and civilians if the result is a dead militant.
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Some nutjob right wing Israelis may hold this view, but its not part of their ROE. In fact, if one were dead set on comparing, the actions of Palestinian militants are more in line with Russian actions than Ukrainian ones in that they are flagrantly lobbing rockets into civilian areas hoping for maximum carnage, which is completely in sync with what the Russians have been doing throughout the war.
 
Raoul said:
Some nutjob right wing Israelis may hold this view, but its not part of their ROE. In fact, if one were dead set on comparing, the actions of Palestinian militants are more in line with Russian actions than Ukrainian ones in that they are flagrantly lobbing rockets into civilian areas hoping to do the most damage, which is completely in sync with what the Russians have been doing throughout the war.
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Reality proves your first sentence wrong. Civilians are killed regularly in situations they know can only result in civilian casualties.

As for the rest, it's pretty much irrelevant for this discussion, since I'm not defending palestinian militant's actions.
 
maniak said:
Reality proves your first sentence wrong. Civilians are killed regularly in situations they know can only result in civilian casualties.

As for the rest, it's pretty much irrelevant for this discussion, since I'm not defending palestinian militant's actions.
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Yes that does happen because the Israelis are not going to let a high value militant escape when they have him in their cross hairs. Depending on who that person is and how badly the Israelis want to take him out, they have to weigh the pros and cons on how to proceed.
 
Raoul said:
Yes that does happen because the Israelis are not going to let a high value militant escape when they have him in their cross hairs. Depending on who that person is and how badly the Israelis want to take him out, they have to weigh the pros and cons on how to proceed.
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Yeah I know they don't hesitate in killing kids if they can take out their target, you're not telling me anything new.

Do you think they should?
 
Ukraine/Russia conflict and Israel/Palestine conflict are very different. But, the main question is: should you target buildings where there are civilians/children present?

The unequivocal answer should be ‚hell no‘. It is a war crime, period.
 
Raoul said:
Yes that does happen because the Israelis are not going to let a high value militant escape when they have him in their cross hairs. Depending on who that person is and how badly the Israelis want to take him out, they have to weigh the pros and cons on how to proceed.
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And by the way, this contradicts your previous post, you've just described their ROE, not some nutjob's actions, but how they routinely operate.
 
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