Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The Corinthian said:
No I know you do. I just find that generally the Israelis take it to a whole new level.
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You've obviously never been to Gaza, if you think Israeli hate is a 'whole new level.' You've never been to Ukraine or experienced any high intensity conflict either.

You just hate Israel and want to score some cheap points by painting Zionists with horns.
 
Hmm. This one is probably the most obvious ""war"" on Gaza to be started because of Netanyahu's status in the eyes of the Israeli public.

I sometimes hope that he has a serious health issue that'll force him to feck off from the public domain.
 
The Corinthian said:
No I know you do. I just find that generally the Israelis take it to a whole new level.
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You don’t say. That’s an exercise in moral evaluation I’d rather not get into.
 
owlo said:
You've obviously never been to Gaza, if you think Israeli hate is a 'whole new level.' You've never been to Ukraine or experienced any high intensity conflict either.

You just hate Israel and want to score some cheap points by painting Zionists with horns.
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Give over. I don’t need to go to Gaza to form an opinion that occupation supporting Israelis are cnuts and that the current government is full of cnuts too.
 
Ragnar123 said:
Probably the same as always. Palestinian terror organizations attack, then hide between civilians when Israel retaliates. Show their dead on camera, keep getting support in men, arms and money. Repeat. This cycle will never end.
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Showing their dead on camera isn't a bad thing. If anything, it exposes unjustified killings of civilians.
 
Raoul said:
Showing their dead on camera isn't a bad thing. If anything, it exposes unjustified killings of civilians.
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Yea, should absolutely be called out. No chance that the IDF did not have cleaner options. Look at photos of the strike, it was evidently painted anyway.
 
Raoul said:
Showing their dead on camera isn't a bad thing. If anything, it exposes unjustified killings of civilians.
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Of course, but that's not the reason they do it. They don't give a feck about their own, otherwise they wouldn't use them as human shields in the first place. They just want to show those pictures/videos to ensure maximum hate against Israel and support from other muslim countries to continue their terror and death cycle.
 
Ragnar123 said:
Of course, but that's not the reason they do it. They don't give a feck about their own, otherwise they wouldn't use them as human shields in the first place. They just want to show those pictures/videos to ensure maximum hate against Israel and support from other muslim countries to continue their terror and death cycle.
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Israel bombs residential buildings... these kids weren't strapped to a rocket launcher in a hamas military base. If the enemy is among civilians, you have the choice to not bomb the whole thing, you know?
 
maniak said:
Israel bombs residential buildings... these kids weren't strapped to a rocket launcher in a hamas military base. If the enemy is among civilians, you have the choice to not bomb the whole thing, you know?
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Palestinians don't exist, anyone claiming Palestinian identity is a defacto terrorist, therefore Israel saw the situation as a couple of enemies residing in a building with other enemies.
/s
 
maniak said:
Israel bombs residential buildings... these kids weren't strapped to a rocket launcher in a hamas military base. If the enemy is among civilians, you have the choice to not bomb the whole thing, you know?
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https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Hamas has been using human shields in conflicts with Israel since 2007

Hamas’ most common uses of human shields include:
•Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or
near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals,
or mosques).
• Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes,
lathes,3 or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas.
•Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or
warned by the IDF.4
•Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for
intelligence gathering missions.
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I don't say it's good that they bomb civilian areas, but at least they try to avoid killing them and warn before a strike. How do you propose they answer, when those terror groups intentionally hide between their citizens? Send in troops into Gaza? Then there would be 10 times more casualties. Or should they just suffer those terror attacks in silence and do nothing?
This is a thousands of years old conflict, only the weapons change. To judge only Israel for those dead kids and not Hamas at least equally for using them as human shields is just a biased opinion.
 
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Ragnar123 said:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf



I don't say it's good that they bomb civilian areas, but at least they try to avoid killing them and warn before a strike. How do you propose they answer, when those terror groups intentionally hide between their citizens? Send in troops into Gaza? Then there would be 10 times more casualties. Or should they just suffer those terror attacks in silence and do nothing?
This is a thousands of years old conflict, only the weapons change. To judge only Israel for those dead kids and not Hamas at least equally for using them as human shields is just a biased opinion.
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But there weren't any attacks this time? It was an assassination of a prominent member of a Gazan group?

It is also not a thousands year old conflict.
 
Ragnar123 said:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf



I don't say it's good that they bomb civilian areas, but at least they try to avoid killing them and warn before a strike. How do you propose they answer, when those terror groups intentionally hide between their citizens? Send in troops into Gaza? Then there would be 10 times more casualties. Or should they just suffer those terror attacks in silence and do nothing?
This is a thousands of years old conflict, only the weapons change. To judge only Israel for those dead kids and not Hamas at least equally for using them as human shields is just a biased opinion.
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If they try to avoid killing civilians, they're doing a terrible job. These last attacks are a great example. No immediate danger and they still chose to blow up residential areas killing a bunch of civilians. How can someone try to justify this is beyond me.
 


A year later, and still no justice for Palestinian-American journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh. If it was an Israeli-American journalist murdered, I wonder what reaction Biden and the US would have had.
 
maniak said:
If they try to avoid killing civilians, they're doing a terrible job. These last attacks are a great example. No immediate danger and they still chose to blow up residential areas killing a bunch of civilians. How can someone try to justify this is beyond me.
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I don't justify this, I only say Hamas and other terror organizations bear the same responsibility for using their own people as human shields. But somehow the majority only judges Israel for their deaths and not both sides, although it's a proven fact how Hamas operates. My link was only one report out of many over the years.
And none of us can really talk about immediate danger or not. We don't have any intelligence reports to have an informed opinion about their targets and consequences.
 
Ragnar123 said:
I don't justify this, I only say Hamas and other terror organizations bear the same responsibility for using their own people as human shields. But somehow the majority only judges Israel for their deaths and not both sides, although it's a proven fact how Hamas operates. My link was only one report out of many over the years.
And none of us can really talk about immediate danger or not. We don't have any intelligence reports to have an informed opinion about their targets and consequences.
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You find it surprising that people focus on the side killing innocent civilians on a regular basis?

And I don't buy this "we don't know the circumstances" when a number of little children have just been murdered. feck that. If you authorize an attack that kills children and civilians the very minimum I expect is crystal clear evidence that that was absolutely necessary or other civilians would have been killed. Israel never provides this. They killed the enemy and children are just collateral damage for them, it's disgusting.

And by the way, you're obviously justifying it.
 
The Corinthian said:


A year later, and still no justice for Palestinian-American journalist, Shireen Abu Akleh. If it was an Israeli-American journalist murdered, I wonder what reaction Biden and the US would have had.
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It obviously matters which country they are from for the President of said country to be more concerned, since it would be one of his citizens.
 
Raoul said:
It obviously matters which country they are from for the President of said country to be more concerned, since it would be one of his citizens.
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Yeah but his point was that the journalist was a Palestinian-American woman, hence, Biden should have treated her more respectfully.
 
I'm having trouble uploading screenshots (images, anyway) to Imgur or whatever so that they become URL's.

I'd like to show you guys (and comment) about what they feed us in the main Israeli media outlets.
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
Yeah but his point was that the journalist was a Palestinian-American woman, hence, Biden should have treated her more respectfully.
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That's a fair point. I believe he did make a statement about it. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else he could do other than privately bring it up with Bennet or Lapid at the time.
 
Raoul said:
It obviously matters which country they are from for the President of said country to be more concerned, since it would be one of his citizens.
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As Scholesy said - she's a Palestinian-American citizen. If I was a betting man, I think the US's reaction would be a whole lot different if it was an Israeli-American citizen snipered by a Palestinian.

Also, Biden/the US's reaction to the murder has been nothing but pathetic.
 
Ragnar123 said:
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf



I don't say it's good that they bomb civilian areas, but at least they try to avoid killing them and warn before a strike. How do you propose they answer, when those terror groups intentionally hide between their citizens? Send in troops into Gaza? Then there would be 10 times more casualties. Or should they just suffer those terror attacks in silence and do nothing?
This is a thousands of years old conflict, only the weapons change. To judge only Israel for those dead kids and not Hamas at least equally for using them as human shields is just a biased opinion.
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2023 and the human shields line is still used. Fair enough the Hasbara rulebook exists but actively expecting people to believe a line that dehumanises people like that is something else.

The funny thing is it's now become a standard military PR speak in despot countries - earlier this year the Burmese military explained bombing the shit out villages as militants hiding behind human shields.

The more doublespeak is used the more obvious it becomes, though fair enough some are gullible in the world to believe it and it's those I truly feel sorry for.
 
The Corinthian said:
As Scholesy said - she's a Palestinian-American citizen. If I was a betting man, I think the US's reaction would be a whole lot different if it was an Israeli-American citizen snipered by a Palestinian.
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I think you would be right given that the US and Israel are allies and there is tremendous pressure on American politicians to not stray from this by being perceived as providing comfort to the side in conflict with the Israelis.
 
The Corinthian said:
As Scholesy said - she's a Palestinian-American citizen. If I was a betting man, I think the US's reaction would be a whole lot different if it was an Israeli-American citizen snipered by a Palestinian.

Also, Biden/the US's reaction to the murder has been nothing but pathetic.
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While it's very very hard for me (emotionally) to read most of what you write on this topic,
I'm totally with you on that one. There would have been a HUGE uproar if it was any Israeli-American in the same scenario.
 
All kicking off again. PIJ apparently fired 1000+ missiles over the last couple of days, and continuing still. Loads of these falling on Palestinian territory. IDF responding and ceasefire talks off the table again. Surprised this isn't getting more attention. Sadly the terrorist groups in Palestine are a huge a hurdle - amongst many - to peace in the region.
 
groovyalbert said:
All kicking off again. PIJ apparently fired 1000+ missiles over the last couple of days, and continuing still. Loads of these falling on Palestinian territory. IDF responding and ceasefire talks off the table again. Surprised this isn't getting more attention. Sadly the terrorist groups in Palestine are a huge a hurdle - amongst many - to peace in the region.
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Do you think perhaps, as scummy as PIJ are, that their response this time may have had something to do with the assassination of some of their members on their territory earlier this week, along with a whole load of civilians?
 
africanspur said:
Do you think perhaps, as scummy as PIJ are, that their response this time may have had something to do with the assassination of some of their members on their territory earlier this week, along with a whole load of civilians?
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For sure - definitely to do with the taking out of prominent figures in the group. Honestly, less so to do with civilians - I think terrorist groups couldn't give a feck about them and use guerrilla tactics whilst hiding amongst them/ensuring they get caught up in as much as possible. That's not to say Israel is wholly innocent either, by the way.

Given where PIJ funding comes from (Iran, rather than a mix of international backers), I wonder if this current flare up comes with specific instruction.
 
groovyalbert said:
For sure - definitely to do with the taking out of prominent figures in the group. Honestly, less so to do with civilians - I think terrorist groups couldn't give a feck about them and use guerrilla tactics whilst hiding amongst them/ensuring they get caught up in as much as possible. That's not to say Israel is wholly innocent either, by the way.

Given where PIJ funding comes from (Iran, rather than a mix of international backers), I wonder if this current flare up comes with specific instruction.
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Again, this is such a strange way to frame this current escalation.

There are rockets now because Israel assassinated the leader of another group in their territory. Those groups' leaders walk around and have families and normal lives just as all other leaders do.

Its just incredibly strange to see you frame the situation as those groups being the huge hurdle when, in this particular occasion, the rockets only started when this air strike on a heavily populated city killing multiple civilians, including children, came from the Israeli side.
 
africanspur said:
Again, this is such a strange way to frame this current escalation.

There are rockets now because Israel assassinated the leader of another group in their territory. Those groups' leaders walk around and have families and normal lives just as all other leaders do.

Its just incredibly strange to see you frame the situation as those groups being the huge hurdle when, in this particular occasion, the rockets only started when this air strike on a heavily populated city killing multiple civilians, including children, came from the Israeli side.
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Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
 
calodo2003 said:
Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
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Are you saying that heir civilian neighbours (including the kids killed in this case) are acceptable target because they happened to share a building with some militants?
 
calodo2003 said:
Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
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You think killing all those civilians, including a bunch of children, is an acceptable price?
 
africanspur said:
Again, this is such a strange way to frame this current escalation.

There are rockets now because Israel assassinated the leader of another group in their territory. Those groups' leaders walk around and have families and normal lives just as all other leaders do.

Its just incredibly strange to see you frame the situation as those groups being the huge hurdle when, in this particular occasion, the rockets only started when this air strike on a heavily populated city killing multiple civilians, including children, came from the Israeli side.
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I guess it depends on how you fundamentally regard these groups.

If you think the likes of Palestinian Islamic Jihad are legitimate and pose no threat to the lives of civilians in either Palestine or Israel, I guess you're depiction would be fair.

If, however, you regard these groups as militant terrorist organizations funded and propped up by a rogue and dangerous regime in Iran, then I guess it is different.

Fundamentally, you're right though - the death of civilians and especially children is the greatest tragedy in all this, and everyone contributing to this situation should be held to account as highly as possible.
 
calodo2003 said:
Are you saying that PIJ leaders aren't acceptable targets because they happened to be on their home ground?
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They're not legitimate targets, no. Unless you give them due process, a trial and sentence and all that entails, you can't just wantonly go around bombing the shit out of blocks of flats hoping you kill a few.

At least the UK and US does its extra judicial killings on foreign soil so they can get away with it.
 
The Corinthian said:
They're not legitimate targets, no. Unless you give them due process, a trial and sentence and all that entails, you can't just wantonly go around bombing the shit out of blocks of flats hoping you kill a few.

At least the UK and US does its extra judicial killings on foreign soil so they can get away with it.
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Agree in an ideal scenario this is exactly how things should unfurl. Israel does next to nothing in pursuing this course of action which would in turn lay the foundations for more progressive lines of communication moving forward. Sadly, it benefits powerful players in both sides to keep the depressing status quo.

However, I'm not sure this makes them illegitimate targets. Sadly, the course of actions you've outlined are next to impossible.
 
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