[United in sin]

Maguire has been surprisingly poor this season. But I'm not having Mings being suggested as better?!

Go and watch Mings in the 3-3. Bloody hell, the 3rd goal is the cherry on top when he passes straight to their man 6 yards out, after totally dreadful play without.

Yeah Mings is complete shite, makes mistake after mistake. Terrible player.

I was talking about Mings being undeservedly dropped at the Euros based on his two clean sheet performances. Also, despite that 3-3 draw Mings has had a much better individual PL campaign than Maguire this season thus far but that's hardly an achievement is it? Maguire has hit rock bottom and is staying there

 

[VanDeBank]

Mings played perfectly well early in the euros campaign. Some people just won't have it because we didn't buy him for 80m.

Disclaimer for the morons looking to take this out of the context: I in no way implied Mings > Maguire, I just said both did well for England. Don't bother quoting me with "you're a troll :greensmiley:" if you don't get the distinction. Thanks.

 

[Sandikan]

Mings played perfectly well early in the euros campaign. Some people just won't have it because we didn't buy him for 80m.

Disclaimer for the morons looking to take this out of the context: I in no way implied Mings > Maguire, I just said both did well for England. Don't bother quoting me with "you're a troll :greensmiley:" if you don't get the distinction. Thanks.

We get it, you basically think Mings is peak Nesta

 

[ayushreddevil9]

yeah

pretty much everyone else on here thinks it was a mistake to commit

pundits think it was a mistake

yet you don’t, so what are you seeing that everyone else can’t see?

That's the thing. He is unable to see that Maguire is not good enough.

 

[JB7]

I was talking about Mings being undeservedly dropped at the Euros based on his two clean sheet performances. Also, despite that 3-3 draw Mings has had a much better individual PL campaign than Maguire this season thus far but that's hardly an achievement is it? Maguire has hit rock bottom and is staying there

He wasn’t undeservedly dropped at all. His ball retention & recycling of possession was dreadful and Maguire is on a completely different level which was evident as soon as he came into the team in Mings place.

And yeah, Mings isn’t having a better season either. He plays for a club with considerably lower expectations where his many errors don’t get replayed 86 times because shockingly the eyes of the world aren’t on him every time he plays. He’s not even the best English central defender at Aston Villa.

 

[golden_blunder]

Just one game? Did you see the video I posted? You claimed that before this season at the minimum he was 'one of th few' who provided composure among other things.

Your post is even more silly considering Mings performances were good enough to warrant him a continued run as a starter for England. Did he put a foot wrong against Croatia and Scotland? England were very conservative and that approach boded well for Maguire. Which team actually tested England at the Euros the way United' backline gets tested by the likes of Burnley and our rivals City and Liverpool?

As for the bold, that's another false narrative pushed by Maguire apologists. Do you remember how shit Maguire was in the second league EL semifinal against Roma in May? He was a car wreck in the second half and most of the blame was shifted to Bailly who actually covered Maguire a few times with his agility and speed. This is the Maguire performance thread after that match

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire-2020-21-performances.457020/page-121#post-27180119

"Probably his worst game in a United shirt. The whole defence was a shambles tonight, maybe Lindelof truly is the glue holding this team together."



He wasn't missed in the EL final

Disagree. They played to Lindelofs weaknesses and it eventually paid off.
Maguire is in shit form this season but I think that season he would have made a difference in the final

 

[A-man]

He's one of the best defenders in the PL at progressing the ball up the pitch and is crucial to our attacking which is very reliant on the left hand side.

This is something I really question. He is probably one of the defenders who makes most progress with the ball, but that doesn’t equal being good at it. Sometimes he makes good runs, but most often it is unnecessary and very slow movements and would have been faster and more efficient to pass the ball instead. If he was crucial to our attack I would have remember several goals coming after his ball carries but I don’t remember any such at all. (I think there was one really good in the euros where Kane got the ball).

 

[lex talionis]

Maguire is a decent CB, but he looks like a player who’s overwhelmed with responsibility. It’s a hard decision for Ralf, but he should be dropped for Lindelof…provided he’s free and clear of his own issues.

 

[United in sin]

He wasn’t undeservedly dropped at all. His ball retention & recycling of possession was dreadful and Maguire is on a completely different level which was evident as soon as he came into the team in Mings place.

And yeah, Mings isn’t having a better season either. He plays for a club with considerably lower expectations where his many errors don’t get replayed 86 times because shockingly the eyes of the world aren’t on him every time he plays. He’s not even the best English central defender at Aston Villa.

Mings is statistically less error prone than Maguire this season and his rated higher on the major stats websites like Whoscored and the premier league official site. Mings has more clean sheets this season than Maguire, and has a goal and assist to Maguire's zero ( just to highlight Mings contributions in attacking). The excuse that he plays for a smaller club and isn't heavily scrutinized doesn't fly in this case. Maguire has been a calamity.

 

[JB7]

Mings is statistically less error prone than Maguire this season and his rated higher on the major stats websites like Whoscored and the premier league official site. Mings has more clean sheets this season than Maguire, and has a goal and assist to Maguire's zero ( just to highlight Mings contributions in attacking). The excuse that he plays for a smaller club and isn't heavily scrutinized doesn't fly in this case. Maguire has been a calamity.

It does fly because Mings is also a calamity. At his best he is still worse than Maguire at his worst.

Clean sheets relates to the defensive unit as a whole, including the goalkeeper and midfield which everyone who watches United can see is not good enough so I don't think that's a fair stat to use on a player v player analysis. Additionally Mings has benefitted from a settled back four and goalkeeper he trusts for the majority of the season and even Maguire's harshest critic has to concede that almost every player directly around him has been changing this season and the one constant - De Gea - he has zero relationship with.

If you want a direct comparison, here you go - https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=B3DsdMS84SC5uh7G9u1Z5

And I'll repeat, Maguire at his worst is still better than Mings at his best.

 

[GifLord]

Maguire 2019 - 22

 

[Isotope]

...
And I'll repeat, Maguire at his worst is still better than Mings at his best.

That's complete BS. Ming at his best doesn't concede those silly mistakes Maguire made. In fact, any run of the mill Premier League CB at their best would be better than Maguire at his worst.

 

[United in sin]

It does fly because Mings is also a calamity. At his best he is still worse than Maguire at his worst.

Clean sheets relates to the defensive unit as a whole, including the goalkeeper and midfield which everyone who watches United can see is not good enough so I don't think that's a fair stat to use on a player v player analysis. Additionally Mings has benefitted from a settled back four and goalkeeper he trusts for the majority of the season and even Maguire's harshest critic has to concede that almost every player directly around him has been changing this season and the one constant - De Gea - he has zero relationship with.

If you want a direct comparison, here you go - https://www.squawka.com/en/comparison-matrix/?compare=B3DsdMS84SC5uh7G9u1Z5

And I'll repeat, Maguire at his worst is still better than Mings at his best.

You can give Maguire all the excuses in the world, I'm not buying it. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I repeat, Maguire is a calamity and Mings has had a better season. We've all seen Maguire play like a drunk trying to ice skate. Mings hasn't had as many bad individual performances as Maguire has this season. The last part of your post is surely a joke

 

[JB7]

That's complete BS. Ming at his best doesn't concede those silly mistakes Maguire made. In fact, any average CB would be better than Maguire at his worst.

You can give Maguire all the excuses in the world, I'm not buying it. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I repeat, Maguire is a calamity and Mings has had a better season. The last part of your post is a joke surely. We've all seen Maguire play like a drunk trying to ice skate

Nobodies making excuses, I've said look at the statistics which take emotion out of the equation and things such as team surroundings and environment to simply compare one v one. Nobody is saying Maguire is having a good season because he is not. But even this season despite "playing like a drunk trying to ice skate", which I'm not disputing at times, he is still a better player than Mings, the statistics back it up.

Maguire fecked up on Tuesday night, no getting away from it (though it is odd that there has been barely a word said about Shaw playing Rodriguez onside completely unnecessarily from the other side of the side and yet more pathetic cowardly goalkeeping from DDG though). But even then he still had a better midweek than Mings who may as well have been credited with three Leeds assists.



"Mings doesn't concede those silly mistakes that Maguire made", in the first 10 seconds of the video he does. He then goes on to get beat in the air by Dan James 2 yards from goal and later on passes the ball to Leeds player inside the 6 yard box. So yes, yes he does.

 

[Isotope]

That is not Ming "at his best", isn't it?

 

[JB7]

That is not Ming "at his best", isn't it?

I didn't say it was?

 

[United in sin]

Nobodies making excuses, I've said look at the statistics which take emotion out of the equation and things such as team surroundings and environment to simply compare one v one. Nobody is saying Maguire is having a good season because he is not. But even this season despite "playing like a drunk trying to ice skate", which I'm not disputing at times, he is still a better player than Mings, the statistics back it up.

Maguire fecked up on Tuesday night, no getting away from it (though it is odd that there has been barely a word said about Shaw playing Rodriguez onside completely unnecessarily from the other side of the side and yet more pathetic cowardly goalkeeping from DDG though). But even then he still had a better midweek than Mings who may as well have been credited with three Leeds assists.



"Mings doesn't concede those silly mistakes that Maguire made", in the first 10 seconds of the video he does. He then goes on to get beat in the air by Dan James 2 yards from goal and later on passes the ball to Leeds player inside the 6 yard box. So yes, yes he does.

How many times has Mings rugby tackled his own teammate resulting in conceding a goal?

The excuses you're making for Maguire are mind boggling. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[JB7]

How many times has Mings rugby tackled his own teammate resulting in conceding a goal?

The excuses you're making for Maguire are mind boggling. Let's agree to disagree.

There are literally zero excuses being made - as I've said, Maguire is having a very poor season, you made a comparison and I'm giving you statistics and highlights to prove it is plainly wrong.

What was the rugby tackle?

 

[United in sin]

There are literally zero excuses being made - as I've said, Maguire is having a very poor season, you made a comparison and I'm giving you statistics and highlights to prove it is plainly wrong.

What was the rugby tackle?

I meant to say how he grabbed Shaw before conceding a goal during that infamous Spurs loss last season. While we're at it, he also clattered into Bailly against Chelsea in the FA cup in 2020, injuring Bailly who was stretchered off. Calamity follows this man. No way Mings best is worse than that

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Maguire 2019 - 22

But this doesn’t fit the narrative he’s been bad ‘this season’. . .

If Maguire defended on the pitch half as well as his defenders defend him on here this thread & the many other Maguire threads like it wouldn’t be necessary.

He’s been crap for years lads, time to admit it to yourselves.

 

[Marwood]

Just one game? Did you see the video I posted? You claimed that before this season at the minimum he was 'one of th few' who provided composure among other things.

Your post is even more silly considering Mings performances were good enough to warrant him a continued run as a starter for England. Did he put a foot wrong against Croatia and Scotland? England were very conservative and that approach boded well for Maguire. Which team actually tested England at the Euros the way United' backline gets tested by the likes of Burnley and our rivals City and Liverpool?

As for the bold, that's another false narrative pushed by Maguire apologists. Do you remember how shit Maguire was in the second league EL semifinal against Roma in May? He was a car wreck in the second half and most of the blame was shifted to Bailly who actually covered Maguire a few times with his agility and speed. This is the Maguire performance thread after that match

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire-2020-21-performances.457020/page-121#post-27180119

"Probably his worst game in a United shirt. The whole defence was a shambles tonight, maybe Lindelof truly is the glue holding this team together."



He wasn't missed in the EL final

Yeah because Maguire was injured. Soon as he was fit Maguire was straight back in.

I asked before, but how many full games of Mings do you watch per season?

 

[red4ever 79]

Harry Mings will be back in the lineup tomorrow no doubt about it

 

[Rozay]

Maguire 2019 - 22

This is frightening. If we finish outside the top 4 this season he will be largely responsible. Cost us so many goals and points. He must be removed from the team immediately to give us any sort of chance.

 

[Smithy89]

He's actually useless, Leicester absolutely robbed us.

 

[horsechoker]

The problem is he's our most reliable defender injury-wise.

As soon as one defender is injured its likely he's back in the squad

 

[romufc]

This is frightening. If we finish outside the top 4 this season he will be largely responsible. Cost us so many goals and points. He must be removed from the team immediately to give us any sort of chance.

I know Maguire has been poor but its a bit foolish to hold one person responsible for "costing" points. I can think of alot of players who have costed us points.

Bruno penalty miss v Villa- 1 point
Cavani miss v Burnley - 2 points
Bruno miss v Wolves - 3 points

Thats just top of my head.

 

[Rozay]

I know Maguire has been poor but its a bit foolish to hold one person responsible for "costing" points. I can think of alot of players who have costed us points.

Bruno penalty miss v Villa- 1 point
Cavani miss v Burnley - 2 points
Bruno miss v Wolves - 3 points

Thats just top of my head.

Well if next to Bruno, instead of you puttung ‘penalty miss - 1 point’, you listed 4 penalty misses and 12 points, it would be a problem.

 

[romufc]

Well if next to Bruno, instead of you puttung ‘penalty miss - 1 point’, you listed 4 penalty misses and 12 points, it would be a problem.

Can you show me where Maguire individually has cost us 12 points? Because yes he did make a mistake against Bunrley, if the strikers score their goals, we win 3-0.

 

[Rozay]

Can you show me where Maguire individually has cost us 12 points? Because yes he did make a mistake against Bunrley, if the strikers score their goals, we win 3-0.

But we are not required to win 3-0 to win 3 points. For the much discussed strikers failings, the team didn’t fail to score. They scored (eventually after Maguire did his best efforts to get one ruled out first), and would have won the game had we not conceded. But we did, largely because of Maguire. The forwards are therefore responsible for not bailing him out, at best - but we did score.

 

[redshaw]

Maguire 2019 - 22

Had to stop watching after 3-4 mins. He's a 80m sloth and being 29 next month at his build he isn't going to improve. Instead of hamstringing the side having to play this 80m wonder and England defender I'd get rid unless he can somehow become much leaner and improve his agility greatly, which in turn would improve his reactions and alertness. We can't sit deep carrying this player for the next 3 years because of his price tag and him needing to play due to being an England starter. He rightly won't want to be a backup and really needs to be sold, cut the losses and use whatever money towards a new defender.

 

[JB7]

But we are not required to win 3-0 to win 3 points. For the much discussed strikers failings, the team didn’t fail to score. They scored (eventually after Maguire did his best efforts to get one ruled out first), and would have won the game had we not conceded. But we did, largely because of Maguire. The forwards are therefore responsible for not bailing him out, at best - but we did score.

Maguire fecked up. Nobody is saying he didn't. It's odd that the other dreadful pieces of play get a free pass though, so here goes, it was also largely because of Luke Shaw playing Rodriguez onside for no reason whatsoever. It was also largely due to the coward in goal not wanting to leave his line and then twisting to make his body as small as it could possibly be before the shot on goal. It was also largely due to McTominay getting done in the save move Maguire did (and leaving a huge space for the attack to originate into in the first place).

That's without looking at the strikers not doing the basics such as heading the ball into an open goal.

Can you show me where Maguire individually has cost us 12 points? Because yes he did make a mistake against Bunrley, if the strikers score their goals, we win 3-0.

Nobody can, but they will still all blindly say it is all Maguire's fault and always will be.

 

[romufc]

But we are not required to win 3-0 to win 3 points. For the much discussed strikers failings, the team didn’t fail to score. They scored (eventually after Maguire did his best efforts to get one ruled out first), and would have won the game had we not conceded. But we did, largely because of Maguire. The forwards are therefore responsible for not bailing him out, at best - but we did score.

Okay, so thats 2 points you can attribute to him.

Where is this if we miss top 4 is largely down to Maguire?

So Maguire has to bail out the strikers for missing chances, but the strikers cannot bail him out for a mistake?

 

[romufc]

Nobody can, but they will still all blindly say it is all Maguire's fault and always will be.

Yep, when we concede its goals, we playing with 1 man team.

Its funny how Maguire cost us points = costing top 4 but alot of people will forget:

Brunos misses against Wolves and Villa
Varane's mistakes against Newcastle
Cavani's miss against Burnley
AWB mistake against Chelsea

 

[Rozay]

Maguire fecked up. Nobody is saying he didn't. It's odd that the other dreadful pieces of play get a free pass though, so here goes, it was also largely because of Luke Shaw playing Rodriguez onside for no reason whatsoever. It was also largely due to the coward in goal not wanting to leave his line and then twisting to make his body as small as it could possibly be before the shot on goal. It was also largely due to McTominay getting done in the save move Maguire did (and leaving a huge space for the attack to originate into in the first place).

That's without looking at the strikers not doing the basics such as heading the ball into an open goal.

Nobody can, but they will still all blindly say it is all Maguire's fault and always will be.

Firstly, that has nothing to do with Shaw. Every defensive line do not go ‘1,2,3 step’ before every step they take. They are required to organise in danger. There was no need to be in line until Maguire’s stupidness a split second earlier, so if he found himself caught out at that point, it was not his fault. You are also ignoring his trademark clumsiness which got Varane’s goal ruled out in the same game.

And I didn’t say Maguire has cost us 12 points this season (yet). I haven’t counted, he might have. He was responsible for pretty much all 4 goals against Leicester, costing us 3 points, he cost us two points last game, he cost us any chance of getting anything against Watford with his ridiculous red card which he conspired to get himself again, from a position of absolutely zero danger. That’s just off the top of my head - the video above has mire feck ups. And as it stands, we’re only one point off 4th! He must be removed from the team immediately to give us any chance at all, which we still just about have, despite his best efforts.

 

[Rozay]

Okay, so thats 2 points you can attribute to him.

Where is this if we miss top 4 is largely down to Maguire?

So Maguire has to bail out the strikers for missing chances, but the strikers cannot bail him out for a mistake?

I’ve already answered that. It is an argument, that can be dismissed mathematically.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with winning a game 1-0. If we win a game 1-0, the strikers have done their job to win us a game. We have won plenty games 1-0. Yes the strikers could have done a better job, but by scoring, they have given us a chance to win the game. Which we would have had we not conceded. If we failed to score another goal in the second half and won the game 1-0, there would have been no problem. It wouldn’t have even been down to Maguire heroically keeping Burnley out in the second half. They barely did anything. Yet Maguire still managed to hand them a goal and almost get sent off, both from situations of almost no danger at all.

This is all before we (or you, at least) decide to acknowledge that Maguire actively undermined our forward effort in Varane’s goal. That isn’t the only time. We drew 1-1 against Newcastle, for example. His defending on Newcastle’s goal was very poor, and he also missed a sitter at the opposing end.

 

[Marwood]

Well if next to Bruno, instead of you puttung ‘penalty miss - 1 point’, you listed 4 penalty misses and 12 points, it would be a problem.

Would a defensive error from Maguire be roughly the same thing as Bruno missing practically an open goal?

 

[Rozay]

Would a defensive error from Maguire be roughly the same thing as Bruno missing practically an open goal?

I’d imagine so. Hence why Bruno was held largely accountable for the game in which he missed the open goal

 

[JB7]

Firstly, that has nothing to do with Shaw. Every defensive line do not go ‘1,2,3 step’ before every step they take. They are required to organise in danger. There was no need to be in line until Maguire’s stupidness a split second earlier, so if he found himself caught out at that point, it was not his fault. You are also ignoring his trademark clumsiness which got Varane’s goal ruled out in the same game.

And I didn’t say Maguire has cost us 12 points this season (yet). I haven’t counted, he might have. He was responsible for pretty much all 4 goals against Leicester, costing us 3 points, he cost us two points last game, he cost us any chance of getting anything against Watford with his ridiculous red card which he conspired to get himself again, from a position of absolutely zero danger. That’s just off the top of my head - the video above has mire feck ups. And as it stands, we’re only one point off 4th! He must be removed from the team immediately to give us any chance at all, which we still just about have, despite his best efforts.

Of course Shaw is at fault, he's the other side of the pitch and from Maguire making his error and the pass being played he drops 5/6 yards and singlehandedly plays a player that had been stood in an offside position, onside. It is abysmal from Shaw and frankly had him & Maguire been switched around people would still be laying the blame at Maguire's door.

As for that VAR call, that was an absolutely ridiculous decision given it's something that happens about 15 times every game & had no impact on the goal anyway. Stuart Atwell masterclass.

 

[Bebestation]

One thing that really causes him to make so many mistakes is the lack of hold up play from our central strikers this season.

I say this because the counter attacks that arises has been a whole different level in quantity and quality this year because of it.

Maguire has limited pace aswell, and we sometimes try to keep a high line when De Gea is not coming of his either. The counter attacks can really rip him up with ease.

He has limited support behind him with his limited pace, he arguably doesn't even have a proper CDM that can protect the defenders from all the counterattack that arises from poor hold up play aswell.

Maybe we just need a better all rounded CB, but I do think we will see him improve next season when we sort out our front line and midfield out aswell.

 

[Marwood]

I’d imagine so. Hence why Bruno was held largely accountable for the game in which he missed the open goal

I don't think anybody blamed Bruno for us going out of the cup did they?

Where as comparable mistakes by Maguire and he's held solely responsible.

You see the contradiction right?

Plenty to criticise Maguire for without going a bit over the top.