[Classical Mechanic]

I've said it before, you cannot play a highline with someone as slow as him in defence and with a keeper who's glued to his 6 yard box. Either replace DDG with a keeper who can sweep and cover and give the defence the comfort to play a highline knowing they have backup. Or he replaces Maguire with a faster, more aggresive defender who is good at pushing out and winning balls in midfield.

Or preferably just replace both of them.

On the Middlesbrough goal some people were criticising him and Shaw for not being higher up and 'playing the offside trap' but surely this is team instrcutions because of the keeper. If they're up near the half way line with the keeper so deep then there was still a 3v2 on with the opposition gifted almost all of our half to run into. It looks like a compromise to me because the players we have don't work with the style Ralf wants. We're constantly getting exposed when a high press happens and our defence is too deep. Poor recruitment and poor vision.

Not really. He glanced through them, giving a few points on the team’s structure that leads to Maguire trying to do what he can’t do but he doesn’t go into depth & generally dismisses them as a rarely occurrence.

I disagree but I guess this is an impasse.

 

[SER19]

Im not sure that saying he's crucial to how this team attacks strengthens his position

 

[Kostov]

That bit of defending he did for the goal, is absolutely criminal, disgraceful and should be dropped. Fecked up the whole defense, the captain and someone who needs to control the backline. Horrendous and I have no more patience for his bad "form".

 

[Fortitude]

Breaking rank is not the problem; Maguire shapes himself terribly and gets done with ease because of it, which is a cardinal sin, especially if you've come out, and particularly if you have no recovery acceleration to even cover the initial error.

Slower defenders than Maguire have managed not to make mugs of themselves because they are intuitive and read play as well as being far better at shaping their bodies, not to mention in the tackle. Maguire fails at every one of those aspects and sells himself like an amateur, which how he makes his mistakes look so pronounced.

The workarounds people offer to excuse him are fascinating. No other defender we have is as readily excused for the most fundamental flaws.

 

[harms]

I disagree but I guess this is an impasse.

He starts the article from by covering Maguire's defensive contribution, but the only example that he uses is his mistake against Burnley — and after that he makes a few general assumptions on how our system highlights his weak points. Which, don't get me wrong, it certainly does — and I think it's already been discussed to death in this & other threads. Even from the get go when Ole said that he was going to build a side that focuses on pressing the opponent and then targeted Maguire & Wan-Bissaka, many fans pointed towards the clear discrepancy between the supposed goal and the skillset of his new additions. We ended up using a defensive set up with 2 holding midfielders in front of a deep defensive line — which had worked fairly well to be honest. But every time we've tried to change it, our defensive structure crumbled (not only because of Maguire — De Gea, for example, is equally incompatible with a high line). The thing is, he never discusses the amount of individual fault that Maguire has to bear after he fecks up in those situations — hey, the system exposes him, so he's not to blame at all!

Although his display against Burnley exposed his defensive flaws — with his rash decision to commit to closing down Jay Rodriguez, instead of guarding space, leading to the home side’s goal — judging him solely on a string of recent poor performances is short-sighted and there is certainly more to a defender than defending.

And after that he continues to describe how Maguire's main strengths lie in different areas — most notably his playmaking from deeper areas. Which is pretty decent by the way, although he has a tendency of holding the ball for too long, but the article makes him appear like some Koeman or Beckenbauer, while in reality he's way off the very best in that department like Laporte or Dias. I'm not going to criticise his passing though, I think that it's really good/great, although his technique is better than his decision-making.

Even the language that he uses throughout the article indicates that his mistakes are actually a little hindrance that doesn't mean that much.

Maguire has fallen short in that department (defending — harms) recently, so now is a good time to look at what he does do well, for the sake of balance and understanding.

While he has had his defensive shortcomings this season

The Maguire that we see today is mostly good (despite his recent errors)

This isn’t to say he hasn’t had his own patches of poor individual form

 

[Rozay]

Fascinating in-depth analysis that is perfectly summed up by the author himself:

‘Herself’, even.

 

[harms]

‘Herself’, even.

My bad, I wasn't familiar with the name and assumed the gender wrong.

Edit: found her on twitter and she seems to make the same mistake of arguing for Maguire's defensive quality by criticising the system while it doesn't work that way. Individual & systemic faults can coexist — in fact they almost always do. Her argument seems to go in a way that our keeper is glued to the line, our midfield doesn't protect our defense good enough and forwards aren't tracking back — at this point it's hard to argue with her — but then instead of simply saying that the system is faulty, she proceeds to the conclusion that Maguire is a good defender.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

why do you think he should step up and make a challenge there? There is minimal danger

Are you serious? Next...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

My bad, I wasn't familiar with the name and assumed the gender wrong.

Edit: found her on twitter and she seems to make the same mistake of arguing for Maguire's defensive quality by criticising the system while it doesn't work that way. Individual & systemic faults can coexist — in fact they almost always do. Her argument seems to go in a way that our keeper is glued to the line, our midfield doesn't protect our defense good enough and forwards aren't tracking back — at this point it's hard to argue with her — but then instead of simply saying that the system is faulty, she proceeds to the conclusion that Maguire is a good defender.

That's not what I take from it. She's saying that the systemic faults mean that his individual faults happen more often, whilst also acknowledging that individual faults not contingent on the system have also occured. It seems that your dissatisfaction with the analysis is that she didn't give enough attention to the last point, which I don't really find to be a convincing rebuttal to her general point.

 

[United in sin]

The single thing I hate the most about this flop is the fact he never takes responsibility for his poor performances. His responses to questions over his calamitous errors are usually along the lines of 'we should've done better', 'we shouldn't have conceded'. Does he have even a shred of self awareness?

 

[TSE123]

Its amusing how HM is always defended, and excuses are made for him. He really is not a good player. Statistics don't show anything, except for a given number that someone has collected. I can provide statistics to prove pretty much any point imaginable; it doesn't make it true.
Churchill supposedly said: “The only statistics you can trust are those you falsified yourself”
And Mark Twain: “There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics”

Maguire alone has costed many games this season. We don't need statistics to prove this. We have video evidence!

 

[Marwood]

The single thing I hate the most about this flop is the fact he never takes responsibility for his poor performances. His responses to questions over his calamitous errors are usually along the lines of 'we should've done better', 'we shouldn't have conceded'. Does he have even a shred of self awareness?

When you're low on confidence you go on the defesnive and he definitely is low on confidence. Hence the evasive interview.

A confident Maguire attempts that tackle on Rodriguez but right now he's petrified of giving a pen away.

A confident Maguire doesn't hold on to Rodriguez 40 yards from goal, he defends properly. But right now he's terrified of getting in a foot race with even mid paced players.

This is fixable. Whatever you think of him he has always been a confident, composed, steady player.

I'm not sure how he gets back to that but I'd start by making sure I'm in the best possible physical shape which I'm not sure he is right now.

 

[lost7]

I still don't wanna give up on Maguire, but my goodness he's had such a shocking season

 

[Oranges038]

On the Middlesbrough goal some people were criticising him and Shaw for not being higher up and 'playing the offside trap' but surely this is team instrcutions because of the keeper. If they're up near the half way line with the keeper so deep then there was still a 3v2 on with the opposition gifted almost all of our half to run into. It looks like a compromise to me because the players we have don't work with the style Ralf wants. We're constantly getting exposed when a high press happens and our defence is too deep. Poor recruitment and poor vision.



I disagree but I guess this is an impasse.

I would criticise Shaw for the Boro goal for not getting out tighter to close the cross. For the Burnley goal, he's fallen asleep and he's not looking across the line.

If you look at the lack of cover in front of the Utd defence, you have much to look at midfield. What are they doing? Are they backing up the press from the forwards? Which at times is just individuals chasing the ball, they have really poor postional sense and awareness of danger. It's always reactive, never snuffing out danger before it has a chance to evolve.

For me. It is a collective issue compunded by individual errors. The space between the defence, midfield and forwards should be the same. If the forwards go up 30 yards, the rest have to follow, midfield defence and goalkeeper. But what really happens is the forwards rush 30, the midfield 20 and the defence stay another 30 or 40 yards behind with the keeper another 30 yards behind that again.

The 4 areas of the team are playing a different game defensively. Forwards press, midfield kind of half or chase the ball, defence sits in no mans land really and the keeper is all the way back in the box.

When you have a slow, uncommanding defender like Maguire in really poor form, making poor decisions and add Shaw who lacks positional sense and concentration to the left side of the defence beside him. When the team is getting exposed it just exasperates those issues.

It's just a shit show really from front to back and back to front.

 

[Bebestation]

I can't remember if it was just FM - but has any player improved their performances after giving up their captains armband?

 

[United in sin]

When you're low on confidence you go on the defesnive and he definitely is low on confidence. Hence the evasive interview.

A confident Maguire attempts that tackle on Rodriguez but right now he's petrified of giving a pen away.

A confident Maguire doesn't hold on to Rodriguez 40 yards from goal, he defends properly. But right now he's terrified of getting in a foot race with even mid paced players.

This is fixable. Whatever you think of him he has always been a confident, composed, steady player.

I'm not sure how he gets back to that but I'd start by making sure I'm in the best possible physical shape which I'm not sure he is right now.

I have seen enough of him at United to come to the conclusion that he isn't any of these things. Maguire only looks confident when the team is controlling the game/holding possession. The difference in the two halves against Burnely exemplifies this

When the tide is against us that composure completely leaves him. He's lucky to be playing for an English NT that's playing it's best football in years. You could play the more athletic Mings over him and you wouldn't see a drop in quality.

Maguire was poor last season as well, worse than his first season. He's simply getting worse

 

[red4ever 79]

Again I am going to post the same thing. Look at his eyes in the first few seconds of this clip He is completely out of his depth here

 

[Ananke]

He literally has a mistake in him every 9 in 10 games.. Like a monumental mistake.

All this data analysis done showing 'he's a good defender' is bollocks man. I don't care if the system makes you exposed sometimes, you're a 80 million pound central defender, the captain of Manchester United and you get skinned alive constantly. 1 on 1, he should be bossing forwards, absolutely smashing them. People want to play against him because he's like a bloody tractor with his turning + acceleration. His awareness with his backline is shocking.

I'm so sick of the excuses for this guy. Needs to jog on. And that post match interview where he diverts ASAP away from himself...pretty much tells you what he thinks. Everyone but him.

 

[Marwood]

I have seen enough of him at United to come to the conclusion that he isn't any of these things. Maguire only looks confident when the team is controlling the game/holding possession. The difference in the two halves against Burnely exemplifies this

When the tide is against us that composure completely leaves him. He's lucky to be playing for an English NT that's playing it's best football in years. You could play the more athletic Mings over him and you wouldn't see a drop in quality.

Maguire was poor last season as well, worse than his first season. He's simply getting worse

Nah upto this season he was one of the few whose technique and minimum level could be relied upon. Very secure in possession and measured. We have a bunch of players who go to shit when the pressure is on but upto this season he wasnone of them.

There's a reason Mings was instantly dropped when Maguire was fit to play.

 

[Marwood]

Again I am going to post the same thing. Look at his eyes in the first few seconds of this clip He is completely out of his depth here

I probably over analyse players physical appearance but does he not look a bit heavy here? A little full in the face?

 

[Relevated]

Wasn't in Leicesters team title winning side.

So what the feck did we sign him for

 

[Relevated]

I probably over analyse players physical appearance but does he not look a bit heavy here? A little full in the face?

It's because he's stressed so he looks unhealthy.

 

[crossy1686]

He literally has a mistake in him every 9 in 10 games.. Like a monumental mistake.

All this data analysis done showing 'he's a good defender' is bollocks man. I don't care if the system makes you exposed sometimes, you're a 80 million pound central defender, the captain of Manchester United and you get skinned alive constantly. 1 on 1, he should be bossing forwards, absolutely smashing them. People want to play against him because he's like a bloody tractor with his turning + acceleration. His awareness with his backline is shocking.

I'm so sick of the excuses for this guy. Needs to jog on. And that post match interview where he diverts ASAP away from himself...pretty much tells you what he thinks. Everyone but him.

You've pretty much summed everything I wanted to say here. My feelings exactly.

 

[crossy1686]

So what the feck did we sign him for

Because he was playing for England...

 

[United in sin]

Nah upto this season he was one of the few whose technique and minimum level could be relied upon. Very secure in possession and measured. We have a bunch of players who go to shit when the pressure is on but upto this season he wasnone of them.

There's a reason Mings was instantly dropped when Maguire was fit to play.

Mings didn't put a foot wrong in his performances for England against Croatia and Scotland. Maguire got in due to his status as united captain and this forced false narrative that he's the best English center back.

As for the bold, are you sure this is true? Maguire was poor last season as well. Do you remember the 1-6 loss to Spurs?

Check out this footage from before this season, when he became a real problem and laughing stock among opposition supporters. You'd be hard-pressed to find so many examples of bad defending and unforced errors from top centerbacks in the league.






He's a poor, poor defender. Piss poor

 

[RedTiger]

His propensity to run into his own team-mates comes down to 3 things.

1. Shit peripheral vision.
2. Shit positioning.
3. Most importantly, he doesn't trust his own teammates to do the job so he feels like he needs to be roy of the rovers doing it single-handedly. Captain and doesn't trust his own players.

 

[Andre Kagawa]

He literally has a mistake in him every 9 in 10 games.. Like a monumental mistake.

All this data analysis done showing 'he's a good defender' is bollocks man. I don't care if the system makes you exposed sometimes, you're a 80 million pound central defender, the captain of Manchester United and you get skinned alive constantly. 1 on 1, he should be bossing forwards, absolutely smashing them. People want to play against him because he's like a bloody tractor with his turning + acceleration. His awareness with his backline is shocking.

I'm so sick of the excuses for this guy. Needs to jog on. And that post match interview where he diverts ASAP away from himself...pretty much tells you what he thinks. Everyone but him.

So much this.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Our attack is dreadful, see Middlesbrough & Burnley but our £80mil defender is integral to it, all whilst being a liability defensively.

I personally could care less how much he’s given our attack, as the output is negligible. He’s there to defend foremost & he’s apparently so bad at that people are writing articles on how great he’s dalliances down dead ends to play a side pass to Shaw are.

But that’s my point. He’s not forced to do anything. He needs to make split second decisions about when to engage and when to back off. If he’s regularly getting those decisions wrong that’s all on him. Getting those decisions right consistently is literally the art of defending.

We don’t often agree but when we do, we really do. How are people excusing his mistakes as if he’s not making them himself.

Don’t get me wrong if we were asking him to hold a line above the halfway line & he was getting beaten over the top then yes that might be tactical but a lot of the time it’s his rash decisions with the game in front of him that lead to people getting in behind him.

 

[BusbyMalone]

His propensity to run into his own team-mates comes down to 3 things.

1. Shit peripheral vision.
2. Shit positioning.
3. Most importantly, he doesn't trust his own teammates to do the job so he feels like he needs to be roy of the rovers doing it single-handedly. Captain and doesn't trust his own players.

Yeah, I notice he does this a lot. The price tag and captaincy obviously weigh heavy on him, and to make up for that he seems to think he needs to be putting himself out there. Which he does by charging in like a bull regardless of whether one of his teammates has it covered or not. it speaks of a man with no confidence or control.

Obviously, the most blatant example of this was when he literally grabbed Shaw and rugby tackled him in one match, which then led to us conceding.

 

[Marwood]

Mings didn't put a foot wrong in his performances for England against Croatia and Scotland. Maguire got in due to his status as united captain and this forced false narrative that he's the best English center back.

As for the bold, are you sure this is true? Maguire was poor last season as well. Do you remember the 1-6 loss to Spurs?

Check out this footage from before this season, when he became a real problem and laughing stock among opposition supporters. You'd be hard-pressed to find so many examples of bad defending and unforced errors from top centerbacks in the league.






He's a poor, poor defender. Piss poor

Yeah I remember that one game.

Do you remember us missing him during multiple games at the end of the season. Where the concensus was that we really missed him.

How many full games of Tyrone Mings do you watch per season? If you think Maguire started ahead of him last summer only on reputation I don't know what to say. That's even more silly when you look at how well Maguire played when he came in. Again the concensus being he was very good in the tournament.

 

[TSE123]

Mings didn't put a foot wrong in his performances for England against Croatia and Scotland. Maguire got in due to his status as united captain and this forced false narrative that he's the best English center back.

As for the bold, are you sure this is true? Maguire was poor last season as well. Do you remember the 1-6 loss to Spurs?

Check out this footage from before this season, when he became a real problem and laughing stock among opposition supporters. You'd be hard-pressed to find so many examples of bad defending and unforced errors from top centerbacks in the league.


He's a poor, poor defender. Piss poor

AND all that footage is from when he was ”confident”, ”solid”, ”world class” - and everything else he has been called.
This seasons edition will probably make us all cry…

 

[girish]

His propensity to run into his own team-mates comes down to 3 things.

1. Shit peripheral vision.
2. Shit positioning.
3. Most importantly, he doesn't trust his own teammates to do the job so he feels like he needs to be roy of the rovers doing it single-handedly. Captain and doesn't trust his own players.

Thats the first thing I thought when I saw him clashing into Mctominay.

I was watching the MOTD highlights and all I could think was how different it would've been I'd he'd just kept the defence line in shape and let Mctominay do his job. Varane was already on Rodriguez, and Maguire was in a position to deal with Weghorst. It was basibally difficult to be scored on from that position.

One stupid decision from our captain messed it all up. I was fuming watching it live, and again today when watching the highlights. If the system is wrong for him, then he's not even remktely good enough to change our system for him.

Get rid.

 

[crossy1686]

I really can’t stand his post matches. Complete refusal to take responsibility for anything that happens while putting blame on the forward line. Rolling out cliches, talking about a need to improve, all just empty words he doesn’t even believe himself.

I just don’t see a captain when I see him speak, and I’ve never seen him do or say anything on the pitch that makes me think otherwise either.

 

[Greck]

I was waiting for the "teammates not good enough" arguments instead I got the system not good. This thing glosses over fundamental deficiencies so casually. We weren't lacking for control when that error even came. It was something like their first shot on target of the game, but apparently we're just supposed to control the game well enough that Maguire can go 90 minutes without having to defend or step out. Top CB.

The stuff about Maguire needing to step up his bonkers, when teams push up sweeping plays is a basic necessity in modern defending, to the point sweeper keepers have been normalised. If a CB isn't quick enough he must be a master of angles, anticipation and decisionmaking so that he isn't leaving his station and getting lost in no man's land. How do we push up without exposing a CB to those situations? Okay guys I figured it out, let's play 13 men so the extra 2 can plug the gap for Maguire. Did Maguire's family member write this?

 

[United in sin]

Yeah I remember that one game.

Do you remember us missing him during multiple games at the end of the season. Where the concensus was that we really missed him.

How many full games of Tyrone Mings do you watch per season? If you think Maguire started ahead of him last summer only on reputation I don't know what to say. That's even more silly when you look at how well Maguire played when he came in. Again the concensus being he was very good in the tournament.

Just one game? Did you see the video I posted? You claimed that before this season at the minimum he was 'one of th few' who provided composure among other things.

Your post is even more silly considering Mings performances were good enough to warrant him a continued run as a starter for England. Did he put a foot wrong against Croatia and Scotland? England were very conservative and that approach boded well for Maguire. Which team actually tested England at the Euros the way United' backline gets tested by the likes of Burnley and our rivals City and Liverpool?

As for the bold, that's another false narrative pushed by Maguire apologists. Do you remember how shit Maguire was in the second league EL semifinal against Roma in May? He was a car wreck in the second half and most of the blame was shifted to Bailly who actually covered Maguire a few times with his agility and speed. This is the Maguire performance thread after that match

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/harry-maguire-2020-21-performances.457020/page-121#post-27180119

"Probably his worst game in a United shirt. The whole defence was a shambles tonight, maybe Lindelof truly is the glue holding this team together."



He wasn't missed in the EL final

 

[SeanyC]

Saw a picture of Vidic on Twitter today, the guy was cut and bruised along the side of his body, it just showed he was in a battle and that’s the mentality that Maguire and a lot of the others in the squad seriously lack. And Vidic cost only 7million. Proper leader, proper player and a proper captain. Maguire couldn’t lease his boots.
I just hope whoever comes in really goes out an finds another beast like him.

 

[Sandikan]

Maguire has been surprisingly poor this season. But I'm not having Mings being suggested as better?!

Go and watch Mings in the 3-3. Bloody hell, the 3rd goal is the cherry on top when he passes straight to their man 6 yards out, after totally dreadful play without.

 

[Sandikan]

"Probably his worst game in a United shirt. The whole defence was a shambles tonight, maybe Lindelof truly is the glue holding this team together."

Proof that if enough time passes, any opinion can be valid.

Och, Moyesie needed more time etc

 

[AltiUn]

Maguire has been surprisingly poor this season. But I'm not having Mings being suggested as better?!

Go and watch Mings in the 3-3. Bloody hell, the 3rd goal is the cherry on top when he passes straight to their man 6 yards out, after totally dreadful play without.

Yeah Mings is complete shite, makes mistake after mistake. Terrible player.

 

[Tarrou]

Are you serious? Next...

yeah

pretty much everyone else on here thinks it was a mistake to commit

pundits think it was a mistake

yet you don’t, so what are you seeing that everyone else can’t see?