Gun control

barros said:
They used machine guns not semi-automatic assault rifle looking guns, if they can get those in UK why you think even if we had gun control the gangs wouldn't get them? They live in an island and we have 2 huge borders.
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1. Dublin is not in the UK, it's in Ireland
2. Ireland and NI have suffered a decades long civil war with the addition of British troops that I'm sure you must have heard about, hence the large numbers of heavy duty firearms that are still in the hands of criminal gangs even after the IRA have officially laid down their arms. Ironically, a great many of those weapons were paid for or even supplied by idiotic Yanks through wingnut groups like NORAID.

barros said:
Most of the big cities have problems with minorities like London and Brussels for example, only because the media and your politicians don't mention this problem that doesn't mean is not a problem.

http://www.wnd.com/2015/01/yes-there-are-no-go-zones-in-europe/
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That article is a pile of steaming shite. There are dodgy ghettoised areas in major cities worldwide and most people would be best advised not to go there but the addition of guns makes them far, far more lethal. I've lived in those areas in my student days both in the UK and France and would far rather face the occasional knife or CS gas grenade as I did than have a gun pulled on me, the one time someone did pull a gun on me in France I was thankful he was a fairly hardened criminal type who was using it to make his threatening point more forcible rather than a jittery home owner who would be more likely to shoot you by accident than out of malice.
 
SteveJ said:
A white Chicago police officer who fatally shot a black teenager last December is suing his (the victim's) family for $10m (£6.9m), claiming emotional distress

Robert Rialmo shot 19-year-old student Quintonio LeGrier six times, killing the boy's neighbour in the process.

Mr Rialmo says Mr LeGrier swung at him with a baseball bat from close range, but Mr LeGrier's lawyers say the two were at least 20ft (6m) apart.

The lawsuit comes amid a federal investigation into Chicago's police.

The investigation is focusing on the use of force by officers and the department's accountability procedures.

It was launched after weeks of protests over the police killing of a black teenager by a white officer.

Laquan McDonald, 17, was shot 16 times in 2014 by the officer, who was charged with murder over a year later.

The inquiry will take a similar form to those recently conducted in Baltimore and Ferguson, Missouri - as well as more than 20 other departments in recent years, and will look for systematic violations of US civil rights laws.

'A new low'

Joel Brodsky, Mr Rialmo's defence lawyer, said it was important in an atmosphere charged by police shootings to send a message that police are "not targets for assaults" and "suffer damage like anybody else".

Mr LeGrier's father, Antonio, filed a wrongful death lawsuit days after the shooting, saying his son was not armed with a weapon and was not a threat.

His lawyer, Basileios Foutris, said Mr Rialmo's lawsuit was "a new low even for the Chicago Police Department".

"First you shoot them, then you sue them," he said.

The lawsuit provides the officer's first public account of how he says the shooting happened.

Mr Rialmo, who was responding to a domestic disturbance call, says Mr LeGrier came charging at him down the stairs and swung a baseball bat at his head. Mr Rialmo says he backed away and shouted at Mr LeGrier to drop the bat, but drew his weapon and fired after the teenager swung the bat again.

Mr Rialmo fired six times, killing both Mr LeGrier and Bettie Jones, a neighbour who was standing behind the teenager.

"The fact that LeGrier's actions had forced Officer Rialmo to end LeGrier's life and to accidentally take the innocent life of Bettie Jones has caused, and will continue to cause, Officer Rialmo to suffer extreme emotional trauma," the lawsuit says.

Lawyers for Mr LeGrier's father and for Ms Jones say evidence indicates the officer was 20 or 30 feet (six to nine metres) away when he fired.

The LeGrier family's lawyer also questions why the teen would attack the officer since he was the one who called police.

"If you're calling multiple times for help are you going to charge a police officer and try to hit him with a bat? That's ridiculous," Mr Foutris said.

County prosecutors have asked the FBI to investigate the shooting. The Chicago Police Department has refused to comment.

Such a lawsuit by an officer is extraordinarily unusual, said Phil Turner, a former federal prosecutor and current defence attorney who is not connected to the case.

Speaking to the Associated Press news agency, he questioned whether a judge would give it any merit and said it appeared intended to intimidate Mr LeGrier's family.

He said he had never heard of an officer blaming his shooting victim for causing trauma.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35519757
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WOW, can't see him getting a penny,
 
If we substituted guns with cheese there would still be deaths but there is only so much damage a nutter can do with a nice bree before the cops take him down with a strong Gorgonzola.
 
Wibble said:
If we substituted guns with cheese there would still be deaths but there is only so much damage a nutter can do with a nice bree before the cops take him down with a strong Gorgonzola.
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What about a gorgunzola though?

Sorry about that...
 
Cleveland to Tamir Rice estate: Kindly pay $500 ambulance bill

CLEVELAND - The city of Cleveland is asking Tamir Rice's estate to pay $500 for his ambulance ride and medical services he received after he was shot by a police officer.

The city requested the money as the boy's "last dying expense" in a creditor's claim filed Wednesday in Cuyahoga County Probate Court. The claim states the money is overdue.

A family attorney for the estate called the claim callous and insensitive, as the 12-year-old was killed by the city's own police officers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cleveland-to-tamir-rice-estate-kindly-pay-500-ambulance-bill/
 
Grinner said:
Cleveland to Tamir Rice estate: Kindly pay $500 ambulance bill

CLEVELAND - The city of Cleveland is asking Tamir Rice's estate to pay $500 for his ambulance ride and medical services he received after he was shot by a police officer.

The city requested the money as the boy's "last dying expense" in a creditor's claim filed Wednesday in Cuyahoga County Probate Court. The claim states the money is overdue.

A family attorney for the estate called the claim callous and insensitive, as the 12-year-old was killed by the city's own police officers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cleveland-to-tamir-rice-estate-kindly-pay-500-ambulance-bill/
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To Serve and Protect
 
Red Dreams said:
To Serve and Protect
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I hadn't read/heard about this case or seen the footage. What the feck is wrong with some officers? Why did they pull up so close if they had the information that the suspect was armed?

Should we have fewer but better police and higher paid to attract better candidates? The UK does have it right imo with so few firearms in circulation that regular cops don't need to carry and its a special job within the force.
 
MarceloFalcon said:
I hadn't read/heard about this case or seen the footage. What the feck is wrong with some officers? Why did they pull up so close if they had the information that the suspect was armed?

Should we have fewer but better police and higher paid to attract better candidates? The UK does have it right imo with so few firearms in circulation that regular cops don't need to carry and its a special job within the force.
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shoot first and ask later. They could not see it was a kid??
 
MarceloFalcon said:
Tbf on that sole item, he was 5'7" and 195 lbs, that's adult sized (not that the police should start a situation that aggressively even if it was an adult)
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A fair point but I'm pretty sure the 911 caller mentioned he was just a kid and that the gun was a toy. In this case I think the responding officers went in with incomplete information, which suggests they heard 'gun' over the radio and wanted to execute the perp.
 
Red Dreams said:
shoot first and ask later. They could not see it was a kid??
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Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
A fair point but I'm pretty sure the 911 caller mentioned he was just a kid and that the gun was a toy. In this case I think the responding officers went in with incomplete information, which suggests they heard 'gun' over the radio and wanted to execute the perp.
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An officer responded to a "armed suspect" call just yesterday (I believe). The suspect ran, the officer pulled out his taser, so the suspect turned, pulled out his gun and shot him dead.

The suspect was 17. That's a kid right? That's the appropriate response everyone wants? Oh just taze him. Use pepper spray. Shoot him in the leg.

Yesterday an officer responded to a call for a welfare check of a man in a restaurant who was just sitting at a table looking a bit worse for wear. The officer sat next to the man to try and see what if he needed assistance, then got shot in the head and killed. His partner got killed in the shoot out afterwards.

People want officers to be caring and compassionate right? To come in to situations and escalate when necessary? what if you're shot in the head before you get a chance to react?

That's five officers in 24 hours who have been killed by gunfire now.
 
Skizzo said:
An officer responded to a "armed suspect" call just yesterday (I believe). The suspect ran, the officer pulled out his taser, so the suspect turned, pulled out his gun and shot him dead.

The suspect was 17. That's a kid right? That's the appropriate response everyone wants? Oh just taze him. Use pepper spray. Shoot him in the leg.

Yesterday an officer responded to a call for a welfare check of a man in a restaurant who was just sitting at a table looking a bit worse for wear. The officer sat next to the man to try and see what if he needed assistance, then got shot in the head and killed. His partner got killed in the shoot out afterwards.

People want officers to be caring and compassionate right? To come in to situations and escalate when necessary? what if you're shot in the head before you get a chance to react?

That's five officers in 24 hours who have been killed by gunfire now.
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Maybe the police should advocate for stricter gun control then. I have a feeling that five officers in 24 hours is more dead officers than in the UK in one or two years.
 
Grinner said:
Maybe the police should advocate for stricter gun control then. I have a feeling that five officers in 24 hours is more dead officers than in the UK in one or two years.
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Send over a proposal on how you'd get it to work. Let's hear the reforms you'd put in place with the current landscape as it is. I assume you have more to offer than the snarky comments you've made at me over the last couple of days? :)
 
What is snarky? I genuinely believe that if a group as respected and powerful as the police came out in favour of gun control then we might actaully see sanity take hold in this country.

Wouldn't you rather your job was like that of a British PC where they rarely answer a call in fear that their life will end in a shootout? The only reason you have to wear a gun on your hip is because of the insane gun laws in this country.
 
Grinner said:
What is snarky? I genuinely believe that if a group as respected and powerful as the police came out in favour of gun control then we might actaully see sanity take hold in this country.

Wouldn't you rather your job was like that of a British PC where they rarely answer a call in fear that their life will end in a shootout? The only reason you have to wear a gun on your hip is because of the insane gun laws in this country.
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I was referring to our Beyonce SuperBowl interaction ;)

I'd love for things to change, and I think most would. I can't speak for all, because I'm sure there's a number who love being able to carry a gun. Finding a way to combat the politics surrounding it is the minefield. I wouldn't be shocked if upper brass had their own agenda. Plus with so many states and departments, having a unified voice is next to impossible. One department wouldn't speak out in fear of other departments shunning them.

Unfortunately it's not just "the police" in a country like this. There's state departments, local departments etc, hence why there's so many issues with uniformed ways of doing things from state to state, or even city to city. Not to mention that it's so far past the point of being a quick, easy fix, that even trying to fathom a realistic solution is a chore in of itself.
 
Skizzo said:
I was referring to our Beyonce SuperBowl interaction ;)

I'd love for things to change, and I think most would. I can't speak for all, because I'm sure there's a number who love being able to carry a gun. Finding a way to combat the politics surrounding it is the minefield. I wouldn't be shocked if upper brass had their own agenda. Plus with so many states and departments, having a unified voice is next to impossible. One department wouldn't speak out in fear of other departments shunning them.

Unfortunately it's not just "the police" in a country like this. There's state departments, local departments etc, hence why there's so many issues with uniformed ways of doing things from state to state, or even city to city. Not to mention that it's so far past the point of being a quick, easy fix, that even trying to fathom a realistic solution is a chore in of itself.
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Was that snarky? It really wasn't meant to be.
 
Skizzo said:
An officer responded to a "armed suspect" call just yesterday (I believe). The suspect ran, the officer pulled out his taser, so the suspect turned, pulled out his gun and shot him dead.

The suspect was 17. That's a kid right? That's the appropriate response everyone wants? Oh just taze him. Use pepper spray. Shoot him in the leg.

Yesterday an officer responded to a call for a welfare check of a man in a restaurant who was just sitting at a table looking a bit worse for wear. The officer sat next to the man to try and see what if he needed assistance, then got shot in the head and killed. His partner got killed in the shoot out afterwards.

People want officers to be caring and compassionate right? To come in to situations and escalate when necessary? what if you're shot in the head before you get a chance to react?

That's five officers in 24 hours who have been killed by gunfire now.
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My point about Tamir Rice is that I don't believe the responding officers had sufficient intel, which had a significant influence on their response. We've all seen the video, things happened very quickly, almost as if any assessment was done before they reached the scene.

The examples you posted are certainly unfortunate. I wonder if police forces should review their protocols on when to pursue, when to subdue, etc., based on the severity of the crime or something. If a suspect is known to police, why not try to pick them up later?

In the second, I'm sorry but in responding compassionately it seems like the officer may have let his guard down and fell victim to someone who wanted to harm someone else. Here in Canada, even with out fairly strict gun control legislation, most patrol officers say they respond to every call with the assumption that someone may be armed. That doesn't mean they show up with guns drawn and shouting "on the ground!" but in my mind it means they are cautious and don't put themselves in situations where they might be harmed. It's certainly not deserved, though. Maybe severe mental illness was a factor, too. Unfair, whatever the circumstances, though.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
My point about Tamir Rice is that I don't believe the responding officers had sufficient intel, which had a significant influence on their response. We've all seen the video, things happened very quickly, almost as if any assessment was done before they reached the scene.

The examples you posted are certainly unfortunate. I wonder if police forces should review their protocols on when to pursue, when to subdue, etc., based on the severity of the crime or something. If a suspect is known to police, why not try to pick them up later?

In the second, I'm sorry but in responding compassionately it seems like the officer may have let his guard down and fell victim to someone who wanted to harm someone else. Here in Canada, even with out fairly strict gun control legislation, most patrol officers say they respond to every call with the assumption that someone may be armed. That doesn't mean they show up with guns drawn and shouting "on the ground!" but in my mind it means they are cautious and don't put themselves in situations where they might be harmed. It's certainly not deserved, though. Maybe severe mental illness was a factor, too. Unfair, whatever the circumstances, though.
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My inclusion of both of those was initially to highlight that "just a kid" doesn't really matter when there's maybe a firearm involved. I agree that sometime bad information could lead to an unnecessary incident, but there's also toy guns that have been stripped on the inside and set up to fire actual shotgun rounds. There's gangs that paint the tip of their firearms orange so that they appear to be toy guns. So even if they heard "toy gun" on the radio, you expect the worst. That being said, upon arrival, things could have gone differently, but it's hard to Monday morning quarterback the mind sets in that situation when you're not the one there dealing with it. That goes for me too, not just you.

My second point on the stories was that I also think that the constant criticism of everything an officer does is effecting the way they work. Last year that first officer might have arrived on scene and drawn his gun, the teen never gets the chance to shoot him. Maybe the officer in the restaurant approaches this guy, who I think had warrants out, and stands off a distance, maybe doesn't even try conversing with him there but demands to se his hands and then escorts him outside where they can control the situation better.

Instead, I'm almost positive that both of those officers reacted in a way they thought wouldn't draw criticism. Officers are now trying to find a fine line in situations on the fly, and it may have cost these officers their lives, all to try and avoid a trial by media.

It's unfortunate that the actions of a few horrible officers have created this spotlight now where officers are reluctant to do their job how they see fit, and are losing their lives because of it.

If the media narrative was more on individual officers who have acted illegally, instead of "look at what (the police) have done again" or with protests with "all pigs must die" etc, it holds an unfair narrative over the majority.

This might have gone beyond the scope of our conversation, it kind of rambled on there for a while :)

On the flip side, it still sometimes blows my mind how some of these officers get hired, because so many do stupid, illegal things. Rape, murder, extortion etc. I guess that's part of a problem when you're in need of recruits and lower hiring standards. Then again, a lot of those officers have plenty of time on.
 
barros said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Muslim-areas-officers-claim-tycoon-RIGHT.html

http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...omments-yes-there-are-places-im-afraid-to-go/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/62...ech-British-police-ISIS-radicalisation-London
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Barros, you've quoted a Breitbart article which is quoted by the other 2 links you provided (the mail and express lol), unfortunately the 5 police officers interviewed didn't mention specific areas of London or Birmingham that are no go areas. Could you find out and tell us which areas of London and Birmingham these northern officers are referring to?

This is quite surprising to me because I have friends who work in NCA (used to be SOCA) as well as Interpol and I've never heard this.
 
langster said:
@barros, The Daily Mail and The Express (AKA The Daily Racist and The Daily Nazi) are the UK's equivalent to Fox News, just in print form.
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I watch Fox News sometimes and basically they do what the other media does, bad mouths the democrats and the other media bad mouths the republicans, but we are finding a lot crimes (rapes) committed by Muslims in Europe for years and the governments with their political correctness philosophy made sure nobody knew about it.
 
barros said:
I watch Fox News sometimes and basically they do what the other media does, bad mouths the democrats and the other media bad mouths the republicans, but we are finding a lot crimes (rapes) committed by Muslims in Europe for years and the governments with their political correctness philosophy made sure nobody knew about it.
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Who says? The percentage of sexual assaults from Non-Germans in Germany in the last year was 13 % of all. That is about the same percentage of Non-Germans to all people.
 
barros said:
I watch Fox News sometimes and basically they do what the other media does, bad mouths the democrats and the other media bad mouths the republicans, but we are finding a lot crimes (rapes) committed by Muslims in Europe for years and the governments with their political correctness philosophy made sure nobody knew about it.
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Other than the Daily Heil and their sick right wing ilk I'm not sure where you're getting these statistics that it's predominantly muslim males that are committing these offences. There have been a number of high profile cases of gangs grooming and abusing young vulnerable girls in areas like Rochadale, Derby and Oxford but the fact is many of the gangs were mixed race with men of asian, african and caucasian heritage with only a relatively small number among them from Pakistan and Bangladesh where most UK muslims are likely to hail from. That the media has chosen to focus on a couple of predominantly south asian gangs shows their bias, not a statistical proof.

The police in the UK have said it is not a racially led crime but rather one of opportunity so whilst there is some statistical over emphasis on ethnic monority males committing these attacks the simple fact is that many of these gangs operate in the late night economy where you also find many of the most vulnerable young girls. The fact many taxi drivers, fast food restaurant workers etc are from ethnic minorities signifies their willingness to work in an attempt to fit in with society, that a small minority of them commit opportunist crimes due to the time they are working does not indicate a racial or religious motive and the media that attempt to portray it as such have their own rabble rousing right wing agenda. Many of the most serious serial killers and rapists have been truck drivers, that is not conclusive proof that Yorkies make you rapier.
 
Bury Red said:
Other than the Daily Heil and their sick right wing ilk I'm not sure where you're getting these statistics that it's predominantly muslim males that are committing these offences. There have been a number of high profile cases of gangs grooming and abusing young vulnerable girls in areas like Rochadale, Derby and Oxford but the fact is many of the gangs were mixed race with men of asian, african and caucasian heritage with only a relatively small number among them from Pakistan and Bangladesh where most UK muslims are likely to hail from. That the media has chosen to focus on a couple of predominantly south asian gangs shows their bias, not a statistical proof.

The police in the UK have said it is not a racially led crime but rather one of opportunity so whilst there is some statistical over emphasis on ethnic monority males committing these attacks the simple fact is that many of these gangs operate in the late night economy where you also find many of the most vulnerable young girls. The fact many taxi drivers, fast food restaurant workers etc are from ethnic minorities signifies their willingness to work in an attempt to fit in with society, that a small minority of them commit opportunist crimes due to the time they are working does not indicate a racial or religious motive and the media that attempt to portray it as such have their own rabble rousing right wing agenda. Many of the most serious serial killers and rapists have been truck drivers, that is not conclusive proof that Yorkies make you rapier.
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Top post @Bury Red , but you shouldn't dismiss the public's concerns about Yorkies so quickly:nono:
 
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