Not many players do have the same ability as Carrick but we need to adapt. It was said we couldnt replace Keane and we signed Carrick, although different players we still enjoyed success. Ruben Nevas is also a good shout at Porto
Future planning - Replacing Carrick
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
What?
Did I write something weird or do you disagree with Carvalho being a similar player? I don't get it.
Wouldn't mind us giving pereira a chance to make it his own instead of going out and signing another young prospect because he has everything in his game to make take that chance with both hands.
On a side note how can anyone in their right mind say William Carvalho is like Carrick. Apart from them both playing DM there's no comparison, Carvalho is absolutely not the kind of player we need, he's just a big strong midfielder who has little composure and ability to play on the ball.
On a side note how can anyone in their right mind say William Carvalho is like Carrick. Apart from them both playing DM there's no comparison, Carvalho is absolutely not the kind of player we need, he's just a big strong midfielder who has little composure and ability to play on the ball.
Sorry I just don't see it at all. Carvalho is much more physical, drives with the ball and gets stuck in while Carrick reads the game and is far more likely to intercept than tackle. Carvalho's passing has improved a lot but he is nowhere near Carrick on that front. Carrick's passing is far more consistently penetrating.
If it's a deeplying passer we want, we should just promote Sean Goss from the U23s. He's not in the same league as Carrick when it comes to the defending part of the role, but he is an amazing passer of the ball and has good technique.
I agree with most of what you're saying, especially the part about the passing, but still. After someone like Weigl I can't think of another player who'd perform that role more similarly to how Carrick does. Perhaps Verratti is another but they are also disimilar in some ways.
You don't really need someone to be exactly like Carrick. United just need a player that can control the match with passing. For example, Modric is that kind of player despite being different from Carrick. Verratti is that player, but he would be too expensive and PSG won't sell.
What are those Bender boys doing these days, were highly rated on here a couple years back.
Drinkwater
Only if we want to continue our journey to becoming the new Liverpool.
Yup. I remember when Carrick was the replacement for Keane and people were kicking off because he doesn't run around like a lunatic.
But anyway, for now, Carrick should be starting.
His name is Andreas. Andreas Pereira.
I cant see Verratti spending his whole career in France, PSG wouldnt be able to keep him if he wants to move to a more challenging league. The price shouldnt really be an issue given we've just dropped £90m on Pogba, and Verratti wouldnt cost as much as him as his profile isnt as high.
It's a real shame about strootman, he'd be good in a 3 with pogba and Herrera
The problem is that Blind was played in the midfield in his first season with us, and was quite poor in that position (or maybe 'average' would be a better term).
It may have just been because he was still getting used to the league and now he'd be fine, so I'd be interested in seeing him given the chance. But I wouldn't say I'd be confident about it working.
Sure but you don't play Modric behind two central midfielders so it depends on what system you want to employ. We don't need a Carrick replacement if we're going to stick with two in midfield because he hasn't fit in that system anyways for a long time. In this case it's a question about upgrading upon either Pogba or Herrera as they currently stand as our two premier cms.
Keane was a more effective player then him but you could find a number of players who fit his characteristics (ie a DM who was quite good with his feet) ex Rijkaard and Davids. Carrick is unique. He's quite a great passer of the ball which allows him to play in that deep lying playmaker role. He's also 6ft3 which permits him to play as DM + his immense positioning and football intelligence compensate for his lack of pace, which in such role is so important (ask Fellaini). I doubt I can think of another player who was or is like Carrick. Pirlo was probably a better passer of the ball then him. However he needed someone like Gattuso at his side to shine something Carrick does not. Verratti is the size of a hobbit, so its laughable to think that he can ever replace Carrick.
In my opinion we should approach this issue by forgetting about Carrick and focus more on what the current players can do. After all, Carrick will soon be a goner and they are the ones who need to make the midfield tick.
Passing: We've got some great passers of the ball with Blind and Herrera
Physicality: Pogba, Fellaini and Schneiderlin are over 6ft tall. That's another issue that is settled
Defensive work: That's something we lack. Fellaini is a no 10, he can do the job in a DM role but simply lack the discipline and positioning to do it. Schneiderlin was a beast at Southampton with someone like Waynama at his side. Herrera is an attacking midfielder same as Pogba, Blind lack the frame to cover that role
Id say we should bring an old fashioned and top quality DM who keeps it simple, close the gaps and does most of the legwork in CM. That will allow players like Mata, Herrera and Pogba to focus on their role
In my opinion we should approach this issue by forgetting about Carrick and focus more on what the current players can do. After all, Carrick will soon be a goner and they are the ones who need to make the midfield tick.
Passing: We've got some great passers of the ball with Blind and Herrera
Physicality: Pogba, Fellaini and Schneiderlin are over 6ft tall. That's another issue that is settled
Defensive work: That's something we lack. Fellaini is a no 10, he can do the job in a DM role but simply lack the discipline and positioning to do it. Schneiderlin was a beast at Southampton with someone like Waynama at his side. Herrera is an attacking midfielder same as Pogba, Blind lack the frame to cover that role
Id say we should bring an old fashioned and top quality DM who keeps it simple, close the gaps and does most of the legwork in CM. That will allow players like Mata, Herrera and Pogba to focus on their role
None of the players you listed have the passing range of a proper playmaking metronome, and bringing in some choad to destroy is backwards, we might as well just play with 3 CB's as that type of one dimensional dogs body.
I think Herrera's, Blind's and Mata's passing range is relatively good tbh. Irrespective on whether we bring a great passer of the ball or not I think we should divide Carrick's role in two ie his passing range and his defensive duties. We won't be able to bring somebody capable to do both and Fellaini is certainly not good enough as a DM
Herrera and Mata have good short passing games and Blind has a great long pass in him, but I think we need a CM with the full repertoire, we went from Scholes to Carrick and now we need the next incarnation. A lot depends on if Jose intends to fully embrace 4-3-3 with Herrera and Pogba as the #8's, if not I get the feeling he will try to use the trio we saw yesterday for the bulk of games and just bring in some clogger to shove in, in big games like he did with Mikel at Chelsea or Fellainiat Anfield, which I think would be a mistake.
There's no next incarnation to Scholes/Carrick, especially Carrick whose a freak of nature in a good sense of way. As said we should bring in a top quality DM. That will get the best of Pogba and Schneiderlin who seem to struggle without someone doing the defensive duties in CM. If Herrera and Mata passing is not good enough, then we should consider to sell them up and bring someone whose passing is good enough
Weigl is out there, not impossible to get and pretty much a replica of Carrick, pure DM's are a waste of time, we shouldn't be buying cloggers who offer nothing on the ball and can't orchestrate from deep.
I don't think that they offer next to nothing TBH. They close the gaps, making the defence solid and they break the opponent's tempo. They also allow the creative players to focus on their game. Pirlo would have struggled without a Gattuso at his side and I still think he's still got Scholes and Zidane inside his pockets
The only reason the midfielder who can control a match is playing behind 2 midfielders in our system is due to the midfielders he's playing with. Pogba likes to go up the pitch. Herrera is the guy that brings energy both to the attack and defense to make up for Pogba and Carrick being slower.
If you had a guy like Modric in a 3 man midfield, a guy like Fosu Mensah would be more of a need than Herrera is what I think. You sacrifice a little defense with Modric over Carrick, so you don't want a guy like Herrera. Modric is also a little more mobile who can join the attack more frequent than Carrick. I would want more of a defensive presence to compliment Modric and Pogba. Herrera's superiority in passing to Fosu Mensah would be negated by the superior Modric who also has more legs than Carrick.
It all depends on which midfielders you have. At least that's how I see an ideal midfield being. That doesn't mean you need total balance and it obviously changes depending on the match/context.
Offer nothing on the ball is what I was meaning, I agree with Fergie's view that they are just destroyers that are there to disrupt and make things ugly, I prefer proactive players that can close the gaps and be positionally disciplined while still offering plenty in posession. We have two very good #8's in Pogba and Herrera and a good pseudo #10/SS/CAM hybrid in Mata, but we lack a controller to sit behind them and play through the lines, a pure DM wont do that and neither Herrea or Pogba are playmakers, I don't see the point in buying a player that doesn't fit with them and a pure DM doesn't as they need the playmaker to allow them to do what they do best, press, drive forward and link up in the final 3rd. .
SAF was a big admirer of enforcers in his earlier part of his career. Paul Ince was an example for that and Keane, while being more attacking minded, was hardly a Carrick. Everyone would love a Robson, a Keane or a Carrick in the team but there's none available. We need to aim for something smaller, players who are great in a specific task. A 3 men CM were one specialize in defense, one focuses on long passes and one had the energy and quality to play box to box
That's too acute and we have two players who offer a multitude of things in their game, all we need is a great passer added to the mix, adding in some clogger wont do anything too improve us, a proper cultured #6 is the key to balance the 2 pieces we have.
Well lets agree to disagree. I think there's a reason why we're playing Fellaini in DM in the past 3 administrations and that was because we lack steel in CM. An Ince/Butt type of player would not only add mileage to Carrick but would also get the best out Schneiderlin, Herrera, Blind and Pogba who can focus more on their game.
The old steel argument is outdated, it's this notion you need some player with minimal talent who will just run around kicking shit out of people as a job, we won PL's and CL without one. We play Fellaini because both managers share that cautious approach, borderline coawrdly IMO, Guardiola,and Klopp would never use that kind of player. there's no reason we have to settle for a blunt instrument, we can get a player who is good defensively and good on the ball, it's not an either or deal, and if you add in this talent free clogger then our midfield won't function as we'll constantly be needing Pogba to come deep and waste energy running the ball out as the deeperst CM can't play through the lines to him and Herrera, it's not a good systemic fit.
Klopp play players like Henderson and Can whose quite hardworking, athletic and defensive minded. Shitty use players like Fernandinho whose pretty much of the same mould. Spurs use Waynama. All these players are not known for their quality Carrickesque passing but for their workrate.
I am not suggesting a Robbie Savage. All I am suggesting is a defensive minded midfielder who relieve the defensive pressure from the others who can then focus on their game. Someone like Nicky Butt for example. We lack that sort of player
If you think we can win the league with a trio made up of Pogba, Herrera and the PSG midget then you're wrong. Pogba plays best in as a more advanced role, Herrera and Verratti are playmakers.
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Klopp was lumbered with those players, he hasn't had time nor the resources or frankly the pull with Liverpool to upgrade them yet. Fernandinho isn't bad on the ball at all, certainly not a pure clogger, and they have Silva who offsets him. Where did I mention Verratti?
Our midfield doesn't lack workrate, Herrera puts twice as much effort in as anyone else and Pogba is physical enough, they play Fellaini because Jose has always liked that shitty tree type player to dump in there in harder games as an obstacle, he did it all the time with Mikel.
Klopp was lumbered with those players, he hasn't had time nor the resources or frankly the pull with Liverpool to upgrade them yet. Fernandinho isn't bad on the ball at all, certainly not a pure clogger, and they have Silva who offsets him. Where did I mention Verratti?
Our midfield doesn't lack workrate, Herrera puts twice as much effort in as anyone else and Pogba is physical enough, they play Fellaini because Jose has always liked that shitty tree type player to dump in there in harder games as an obstacle, he did it all the time with Mikel.
Klopp is using those players and he's doing very well with them. Same as Pep whose using Fernandinho. Spurs have Waynama, Chelsea have Matic and Kante who are hardly Pirlo and Scholes. Leicester won the league with Kante and Drinkwater in CM. AC Milan duo Gattuso and Pirlo humiliated many midfield including our own and went on winning CLs and a world cup
I am not suggesting Robbie Savage. If that was the case then we might as well stick to Fellaini. All I am suggesting is a defensive midfielder whose athletic, he's got great positioning, he won't be bullied by more physical players and which would allow our playmakers to focus on their game. Herrera is a playmaker, Pogba had never impressed whenever played that deep and Schneiderlin's best games came when partnered by someone like Waynama. There's a difference between a Paul Ince or a Nicky Butt and a Robbie Savage. We need a quality DM not more fancy passers. We've got them by the bucket loads with Herrera, Mata, Blind, Pogba and co
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Again you are citing examples where the midfield still had a playmaker, whether it's Pirlo or Silva, what Spurs do is irelevant as they haven't won a thing under Pochettino and Leicester are an anomally as this season is showing. We don't have a playmaker, we have excellent final 3rd CM's that can create openings and chances, but we don't have a CM that can control the tempo of games and orchestrate the teams play.
Now I am going to ignore the recent Drinkwater stuff you've been going with and assume you have a far better option in mind for your atheltic DM?
If that was true, then surely Schneiderlin would be the chosen CM as he's considerably better defensively, while also being marginally better on the ball. No I think Fellaini is played simply because of his height.
In Jose's Chelsea mark I period, out of the midfield trio of Lampard, Essein and Makelele, was there any playmaker?
Replacing Carrick depends on what kind of DM, we want, if we want to replace Carrick directly, I can't see past Julian Weigl, in fact, he's my number one choice for that DM position. Another player we should be looking at is Richedly Bazoer, these are the two players we should go for, because let's face it, Veratti isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and we have no chance of signing any "big name" option, so, let's go for quality young players to fill that position. An older, more experienced option would be San Jose, but I don't rate him as highly as i rate the first 2 players I mentioned.
I'd rather Verratti, but him or Weigl are the answer.
I do want Verrati, but he's not really a realistic option, I don't see how PSG would let him go anytime soon, so, in that case, Weigl it is.
Schneiderlin is a box to box player and not a DM. His best games came with Waynama at his side
I keep mentioning teams that use defensive minded player in their team and who are doing so well in the EPL and yet you see it as irrelevant. Now if we lack a playmaker then we should consider selling 1-2 between Herrera, Mata, Fellaini Blind and co to bring one. However even if we bring in a playmaker we would still have a deficiency in DM and that's why Fellaini is still playing. You won't sort that issue with Pogba or Herrera. They are not DMs