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Future planning - Replacing Carrick
- Thread starter Pexbo
- Start date
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
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Paredes looks almost perfect to me.
In my dreams, we would go and pinch Thiago Alcântara from Bayern.
His passing and vision are all on par with Carrick, with some added dribbling skill and flair for good measure.
A sublime player - pity he'd never be allowed to leave unless we offered silly money. (Oh and the risk of fitness issues...)
His passing and vision are all on par with Carrick, with some added dribbling skill and flair for good measure.
A sublime player - pity he'd never be allowed to leave unless we offered silly money. (Oh and the risk of fitness issues...)
Replacing Carrick with Thiago or Verratti would leave us too weak (defensively) in midfield.
Good point about Verratti. He has the passing range though, the positioning will have to be worked on. But under Laurent Blanc at PSG he was sitting pretty deep, so it would a natural evolution.
I really like Verratti, but for the #6 role the drastic loss aerially (compared to Carrick/Herrera/Fellaini) + him having had the benefit of Motta (Carrick-esque) and Matuidi (marathon-man) would mean a lot of adapting.
Madrid got away with Kroos (in the CL) because of the ridiculous levels of technique and athleticism throughout their starting 11 (but are much better now with Casemiro), and Juventus with Pirlo because of their 3 at-the-back + wingback system as well as Vidal/Marchisio. We will probably need more reshaping than a straight Carrick for Verratti swap, unless the defence and attack step up to a level that papers over that.
Agreed entirely. Also I'd add with Pogba displaying a rather good passing range, maybe a "Casemiro" type would make more sens if we are not keen on reshaping the midfield right away.
Lately I've been wondering if Herrera isn't evolving towards being our "Vidal" type player. I think he is as technical as Vidal, but maybe not as good as an interceptor, the workrate is there though; if he can increase his defensive aptitude it should make bring-in another technical type player easier.
We had a Casemiro type in Schniederlin but it didn't work out - I think it's because teams sit back so much against us that we don't require a destroyer. Unlike Real Madrid however, we actually have some balance to the team with the wingers tracking back etc. Thiago has the passing ability, and is underrated in the amount of defensive work he actually does.
There isn't a replacement out there, this combined with Mourinho's preference for a more classic destroyer type DM will see our MF reshaped over summer.
I just hope that we get someone with good positional sense and decent abillities on the ball. Someone lacking in both or one of those departments just doesn't work, like shown by Schneiderlin.
I just hope that we get someone with good positional sense and decent abillities on the ball. Someone lacking in both or one of those departments just doesn't work, like shown by Schneiderlin.
Mourinho's favoured midfield set-up has generally consisted of a deep-lying midfielder capable of calmly circulating possession and passing through the lines (Makalele/Motta/Cambiasso/Alonso/Fabregas) in combination with a more physical, energetic, marauding midfield presence (Essien/Muntari/Stankovic/Khedira/Diarra/Matic). Unless Herrera is permanently converted to the former role, I expect some sort of Carrick replacement will be sought elsewhere. Bakayoko, who we're being linked with at the moment, would obviously be a good fit for the latter role.
True, Andre Gomes for me has the right attributes to fill the role, just needs to gain more experience in the role. If it doesn't work out for him at Barca we should be all over him.
Does he have the defensive attributes to shine in that position though ? I've always considered him as more of a No 10 from what little I have seen of him.
In my dreams, we would go and pinch Thiago Alcântara from Bayern.
His passing and vision are all on par with Carrick, with some added dribbling skill and flair for good measure.
A sublime player - pity he'd never be allowed to leave unless we offered silly money. (Oh and the risk of fitness issues...)[/QUOTE]
which rules him out in my opinion. As good as he would be, there's no point signing a player who will be in the physioroom more than the training field. He seems like one of these players who sadly is destined not to fulfill his potential due to injuries (Aka Van Basten...Andy Carroll
Neves, bazoer, weigel
All good young players who for the right fee may be available... especially in the summer if we qualify for the cl
All good young players who for the right fee may be available... especially in the summer if we qualify for the cl
Ruben Neves isn't good enough for his current club and Bazoer was sold for the same reason, the other one probably isn't for sale.
We need more weight and then I say N'zonzi or Waynyama
De Gea.
I just hope whoever Jose targets for the holding role is mobile and quick.
Nzonzi is the better passer. Not much range, but very good at short passing to get others on the ball, and a lot more composure than Wanyama. I could see Mourinho wanting him to make us solid as our DM and also doing a job as the more conservative partner for Pogba or Herrera when we go with 3 in midfield to play a 10.
I watched Monaco again tonight, Bakayoko isn't the answer to this question, he'd be fine as a rotation with Herrera but him in a 3 with Pogba and Herrera would be rudderless. On the other hand Fabinho is 3 quarters of the way to being a good option, his passing game is mediocre but his defensive positioning, discipline and covering of his fullbacks is excellent.
Weigl won't be sold this summer, but more importantly, I highly doubt that he's a player of Mourinho's liking.
He's used Motta/Alonso/Fabregas in his last 3 teams so he does usually value one CM who's passing game is immaculate, and he surely realizes by now Pogba needs that type of player behind him to perform at his best.
I didn't have Weigl's passing qualities in when I doubt that he's a Mourinho target (although I think Weigl is overestimated a tiny bit in that department). Weigl isn't physical enough and most likely never be. He's a player destined for La Liga bar Atletico Madrid.
I wouldn't say he's any less physical than Carrick, he's wiry and protects the ball well. Jose will need to be careful, there's no point in getting some horse that can go shoulder to shoulder but can barely pass the ball more than 5 yards sideways.
Seems like too much of a 6/8 hybrid (based on very limited youtube scouting admittedly), would much prefer a proper disciplined holding CM. Could still be a fine signing if we're signing two CM's this summer.
Who are you talking about?
LOL I thought I quoted your post about Bakayoko but apparently not...
Ah right, Bakayoko isn't the answer I agree, he's basically an upgrade on Fellaini/competition for Ander, if we bought a DM off Monaco I think Fabinho is the better option, his passing isn't great but he does the other aspects of Carrick's role to a high standard.
I think anyone expecting us to find a Carrick clone is going to be disappointed. I can't really think of a realistic option that offers his discipline, reading of the game and passing range. We will either have to settle for someone with a more limited passing ability, or go in a different direction, like getting a more athletic/defensive #8 to replace Herrera (like Bakayoko) and signing a DLP that's weaker defensively but could replace Carrick's passing.
If we sign Griezmann, this is all moot obviously. In that case I would expect us to focus on a defensively strong holding mid and hopefully find a CB with good ability on the ball/passing ability.
We should just go big and sign Weigl. He's the perfect Carrick replacement. If not him, then try a different approach with a midfielder who does the simple things right and has two more creative midfielders ahead of him.
I think you might be right...
Did we ever replace Keane like-for-like?
Did we ever replace Scholes like-for-like?
Will we be able to replace Carrick like-for-like???
One thing they all have in common, their passing is/was very good, which is the point of the posts above. That's what we should replace. I think Pogba's and Herrera's passing can be very good, but whether their passing ability is enough for Mourinho remains to be seen. At every team Mourinho had a player, like @Devil may care pointed out, that controlled the game with his passing.
The thing we have to work around is Pogba can't play to his best in a 2, no matter we pair him with IMO. The only player I see around that can replace Carrick close to like for like is Weigl, a difficult signing for reasons mentioned ad nauseum.
Of the 2 counter options you propose I think Fabinho fits the first, while Paredes would be a good option for the 2nd.
This is the reason I am reluctant when it comes to Fabinho, he does the defensive aspect of the role excellently, but his passing isn't up too much, very safe and lacking the expansion ideally required, it would be different if we had a playmaking #8 like Modric, Thiago, Kroos or Verratti, but we don't.
We've been linked with Matic to fill this role.
I've been on hundreds of youtube scout videos and the only Carrick type player I can see or want would be Ruben Neves and Weigl at Dortmund. Haven't seen any other young defensive midfielders that come close to their potential.
If anyone has any better suggestions let me know.
If anyone has any better suggestions let me know.
For me the ideal replacement of Carrick is already playing here and his name is Pogba.
Ofcourse that means Pogba can not be our nr 10. Which is ok because generally he doesn't play well as a nr10 and there are far more and better options to get a 10 than to get a deeplying playmaker in the market. Mata currently is perfect as a 10 and if we want to improve ourself we can get Griezmann who can also perfectly play as a 10.
The only thing missing in that midfield is a hard worker, running his miles, closing the gaps and protecting the defence. Currently in the team that role can be done by Herrera/Fellaini and I see a future for TFM in that role aswell. Bakayoko would also fit that role.
So in that line of tought I suggest we start playing like this:
------------Herrera/Fellaini/TFM--------Pogba/Carrick------------------
-------------------------------Mata/Rooney-------------------------------
Let it evolve to this next season:
-----------Bakayoko/TFM------Pogba/Herrera----------------------
------------------------Griezmann/Mata-----------------------------
Now queu the holy 3 man midfield crusaders who will tell me this is impossible and only looks good on paper and we can never play like this in the PL for reasons
- vision: check
- passing: check
- positional awareness: check
Ofcourse that means Pogba can not be our nr 10. Which is ok because generally he doesn't play well as a nr10 and there are far more and better options to get a 10 than to get a deeplying playmaker in the market. Mata currently is perfect as a 10 and if we want to improve ourself we can get Griezmann who can also perfectly play as a 10.
The only thing missing in that midfield is a hard worker, running his miles, closing the gaps and protecting the defence. Currently in the team that role can be done by Herrera/Fellaini and I see a future for TFM in that role aswell. Bakayoko would also fit that role.
So in that line of tought I suggest we start playing like this:
------------Herrera/Fellaini/TFM--------Pogba/Carrick------------------
-------------------------------Mata/Rooney-------------------------------
Let it evolve to this next season:
-----------Bakayoko/TFM------Pogba/Herrera----------------------
------------------------Griezmann/Mata-----------------------------
Now queu the holy 3 man midfield crusaders who will tell me this is impossible and only looks good on paper and we can never play like this in the PL for reasons
Pogba can pass just fine but his positional awareness is nowhere near up to the standard to shield the back four.
Problem with him is, he isn't even first choice at the moment.
The more I see the more I am convinced Cyprien is the best choice we could make.