Future planning - Replacing Carrick

[Mani]

In Jose's Chelsea mark I period, out of the midfield trio of Lampard, Essein and Makelele, was there any playmaker?

Wasn't M.Essien better passer? and Makelele was not to shabby with the ball either, he kept it simple.

 

[CS@SG]

Wasn't M.Essien better passer? and Makelele was not to shabby with the ball either, he kept it simple.

Actually, my understanding of a "playmaker" or "deep lying playmaker" is much more than "better passer" or "good on the ball". But anyway, i feel that the combi of Mata+Herrera+Pogba in a way is quite similar to Lampard+Essein+Makelele, but, much weaker defense wise.

 

[Mani]

Actually, my understanding of a "playmaker" or "deep lying playmaker" is much more than "better passer" or "good on the ball". But anyway, i feel that the combi of Mata+Herrera+Pogba in a way is quite similar to Lampard+Essein+Makelele, but, much weaker defense wise.

Yep.the problem with our combo is,both Mata and Pogba both love to get forward , where as for Chelsea, Essien perfectly played his link up role with MF and attack,Herrera can perfectly fit in Essien's role next season if we manage to find right player for DLP.

 

[Invictus]

Mata + Pogba + Ander isn't comparable to the Chelsea trio at all, to be fair. If anything, Pogba is similar to Lampard (who was the most advanced of the three) - a midfielder who operated in the zone between midfield and attack - with his biggest contributions coming nearer to the attacking third, but that's the closest fit among the three. Essien was a titanic box-to-box midfielder (ok - Herrera can do this, but he isn't remotely as physical with the ability to drive forwards), and Makélélé was the most perceptive midfielder the league has seen in the last couple decades in terms of positioning in the deep third, while also having the ability to keep things ticking along with basic but well timed passes.

So even if we leave the collective defensive aspect aside, from a functional standpoint (in terms of the way they 'fit' together, relative to our trio), it's several orders of magnitude apart. Mata + Pogba + Ander is unlikely to withstand most top quality, balanced midfield units because Pogba's inherent tendency is to carry the ball forward - which can and does leave positional holes for Herrera, since Mata is a more orthodox forward/#10. But if you have a point backwards instead of a point forward (Mata), Pogba will be liberated as Herrera and the #6 can both plug in the gaps, but it will additionally give Herrera the license to be more proactive and press the opponents in the center of the park.

 

[devilish]

Mata + Pogba + Ander isn't comparable to the Chelsea trio at all, to be fair. If anything, Pogba is similar to Lampard (who was the most advanced of the three) - a midfielder who operated in the zone between midfield and attack - with his biggest contributions coming nearer to the attacking third, but that's the closest fit among the three. Essien was a titanic box-to-box midfielder (ok - Herrera can do this, but he isn't remotely as physical with the ability to drive forwards), and Makélélé was the most perceptive midfielder the league has seen in the last couple decades in terms of positioning in the deep third, while also having the ability to keep things ticking along with basic but well timed passes.

So even if we leave the collective defensive aspect aside, from a functional standpoint (in terms of the way they 'fit' together, relative to our trio), it's several orders of magnitude apart. Mata + Pogba + Ander is unlikely to withstand most top quality, balanced midfield units because Pogba's inherent tendency is to carry the ball forward - which can and does leave positional holes for Herrera, since Mata is a more orthodox forward/#10. But if you have a point backwards instead of a point forward (Mata), Pogba will be liberated as Herrera and the #6 can both plug in the gaps, but it will additionally give Herrera the license to be more proactive and press the opponents in the center of the park.

Exactly. We've been trying to put square pegs into round holes for too much time. Blind isn't a defender, Mata isn't a winger, Rooney is not a CM, Schneiderlin, Herrera and Fellaini aren't DMs. If a player isn't good enough for his natural role or we cant play him in his natural role because of formation reasons then its time to leave.

Id say let us

a- get rid of the 4-2-3-1 formation. The system had been found out just like its predecessor had been found out (4-4-2)
b- add a top quality DM and try Herrera/Blind as the deep lying playmaker and Pogba and Schneiderlin as the box to box player.
c- Add top quality flank men, who can take on players and are quite quick
d- play Martial and Rashford upfront

That will allow us to increase our tempo which in turn would make us devastating in counter attack.

 

[United Pro]

Schneiderlin is a box to box player and not a DM. His best games came with Waynama at his side

Fellaini's best position definitely isn't as a CDM in a midfield 2 either. My point was Schneiderlin would be a better option any way you look at it bar aerial threat imo.

 

[devilish]

Fellaini's best position definitely isn't as a CDM in a midfield 2 either. My point was Schneiderlin would be a better option any way you look at it bar aerial threat imo.

I agree. However Schneiderlin is not a DM either. He was a beast with Waynama at his side.

 

[United Pro]

I agree. However Schneiderlin is not a DM either. He was a beast with Waynama at his side.

Yes, but he would be more suited to the double pivot system as he's more mobile than Fellaini. But like the other thread, we seem to be derailing quite a bit. On topic, even though it wouldn't be a Carrick replacement, I really want us to move for Saul. He's technically sound, while also being defensively solid and able to dribble the ball and drive through midfield.

 

[Devil may care]

I keep mentioning teams that use defensive minded player in their team and who are doing so well in the EPL and yet you see it as irrelevant. Now if we lack a playmaker then we should consider selling 1-2 between Herrera, Mata, Fellaini Blind and co to bring one. However even if we bring in a playmaker we would still have a deficiency in DM and that's why Fellaini is still playing. You won't sort that issue with Pogba or Herrera. They are not DMs

you mentioned Spurs and Liverpool teams that haven't won anything, and Leicester who we all know was the result of the most freakish season in English football history. United, City and Chelsea have all operated with a playmaker and been the regular title winners. Herrera is very good defensively, same as Marchisio in Juve's midfield 3, we just need to add a playmaking screen, not a clogger who can't pass accurately through the lines.

 

[devilish]

you mentioned Spurs and Liverpool teams that haven't won anything, and Leicester who we all know was the result of the most freakish season in English football history. United, City and Chelsea have all operated with a playmaker and been the regular title winners. Herrera is very good defensively, same as Marchisio in Juve's midfield 3, we just need to add a playmaking screen, not a clogger who can't pass accurately through the lines.

I've mentioned the teams you've mentioned (Klopp's team aka Liverpool and Pep's team aka Shitty). I also added Chelsea, Spurs and last year's EPL title winners too, all of which have defensive minded players who are way more athletic and defensive minded then Herrera is. Barcelona have Busquets and Juventus have Khedira. They are way more defensive minded then Herrera.

Pogba is attacking minded. He may be big but he doesn't have the discipline and positioning needed in a DM. Herrera is not a DM either. Now either we tackle that issue or we will keep sticking to Fellaini whose the most defensive minded of the lot

 

[Xeno]

Pogba is attacking minded and Herrera is not a DM and he'll never be. Now either we tackle that issue or we will keep sticking to Fellaini whose the most defensive minded of the lot

Fellaini is an awful DM. He's just about passable as a number 10 for a long-ball oriented team. He lacks any sort of mobility, fouls far too often and has poor distribution and passing skills.

The DM at the base of a midfield three is a totally different skill set than the 'holding' player in the base two of a 4231.

 

[Devil may care]

I've mentioned the teams you've mentioned (Klopp's team aka Liverpool and Pep's team aka Shitty). I also added Chelsea, Spurs and last year's EPL title winners too, all of which have defensive minded players who are way more athletic and defensive minded then Herrera is. Barcelona have Busquets and Juventus have Khedira. They are way more defensive minded then Herrera.

Pogba is attacking minded. He may be big but he doesn't have the discipline and positioning needed in a DM. Herrera is not a DM either. Now either we tackle that issue or we will keep sticking to Fellaini whose the most defensive minded of the lot

So counting the ones that are actually winning things, City have a playmaker in Silva, Juve have one in Pjanic and Busquets is excellent on the ball, pretty much a Carrick style of DM. I think as far as Herrera and defense goes, you are equating defense with phsyical size.

We don't disagree that we need a disciplined holding player, we just disagree on the type, I don't want us to sacrifice footballing ability for some athlete that can only pass it 5 yards sideways.

 

[devilish]

So counting the ones that are actually winning things, City have a playmaker in Silva, Juve have one in Pjanic and Busquets is excellent on the ball, pretty much a Carrick style of DM. I think as far as Herrera and defense goes, you are equating defense with phsyical size.

We don't disagree that we need a disciplined holding player, we just disagree on the type, I don't want us to sacrifice footballing ability for some athlete that can only pass it 5 yards sideways.

As said, I believe we need a disciplined holding player, whose got top notch positioning/can cover alot of inches of pitch, whose got great defensive discipline and a strong frame which can take the hits. None of the current players have that. Fellaini is the closest we've got because of his physical strength and ability to win the ball. That's why he keeps playing. However he's not a DM and he's not doing a great job there. Now if that DM can give Beckhamesque through balls, dribble like Messi, score goals like RVN and save shots like Schmeichel the better. However the most important is the assets I've mentioned before.

Regarding whether we've got a playmaker or not, well, Id wait about that. I'd like to see Schneiderlin, Pogba and Herrera back to their natural role + Blind in a deep lying playmaker's role before deciding. A DM can make loads of difference as other players can play in their natural role without concerning too much of constantly backtracking to win the ball.

 

[devilish]

Fellaini is an awful DM. He's just about passable as a number 10 for a long-ball oriented team. He lacks any sort of mobility, fouls far too often and has poor distribution and passing skills.

The DM at the base of a midfield three is a totally different skill set than the 'holding' player in the base two of a 4231.

I agree. However he's the only one we've currently got whose got that frame and attitude to tackle and break the opponent's game play. That's why he constantly play and that's why we need a DM as soon as possible

 

[Murray3007]

hows Javi Martinez doing now ? I no he was out injured for a while, was quality in the CM area when Bayern won the treble a few years back, not seen as much games outside the prem this season, hopefully struggling to get in the bayern team and may want 1st team football.

 

[Xivon]

hows Javi Martinez doing now ? I no he was out injured for a while, was quality in the CM area when Bayern won the treble a few years back, not seen as much games outside the prem this season, hopefully struggling to get in the bayern team and may want 1st team football.

He is injured right now but for me he has been our best CB so far.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

The only reason the midfielder who can control a match is playing behind 2 midfielders in our system is due to the midfielders he's playing with. Pogba likes to go up the pitch. Herrera is the guy that brings energy both to the attack and defense to make up for Pogba and Carrick being slower.

If you had a guy like Modric in a 3 man midfield, a guy like Fosu Mensah would be more of a need than Herrera is what I think. You sacrifice a little defense with Modric over Carrick, so you don't want a guy like Herrera. Modric is also a little more mobile who can join the attack more frequent than Carrick. I would want more of a defensive presence to compliment Modric and Pogba. Herrera's superiority in passing to Fosu Mensah would be negated by the superior Modric who also has more legs than Carrick.

It all depends on which midfielders you have. At least that's how I see an ideal midfield being. That doesn't mean you need total balance and it obviously changes depending on the match/context.

But why would we move Herrera, who's probably our best cm currently, to play Fosu-Mensah who's barely even been tested as a CDM in the first team.

As you say, you go after the player who's going to compliment the players that we already have. And the cms that we already have not looked comfortable playing in a double-pivot, which we've inexplicably been sporting for almost a season and a half.

 

[Devil may care]

As said, I believe we need a disciplined holding player, whose got top notch positioning/can cover alot of inches of pitch, whose got great defensive discipline and a strong frame which can take the hits. None of the current players have that. Fellaini is the closest we've got because of his physical strength and ability to win the ball. That's why he keeps playing. However he's not a DM and he's not doing a great job there. Now if that DM can give Beckhamesque through balls, dribble like Messi, score goals like RVN and save shots like Schmeichel the better. However the most important is the assets I've mentioned before.

Regarding whether we've got a playmaker or not, well, Id wait about that. I'd like to see Schneiderlin, Pogba and Herrera back to their natural role + Blind in a deep lying playmaker's role before deciding. A DM can make loads of difference as other players can play in their natural role without concerning too much of constantly backtracking to win the ball.

The most important asset is for them to be good on the ball once they win it, otherwise you have a Fellaini situation. you mention Pogba playing his natural game but he never will with a pure DM as he'll constantly be forced to come and get the ball deep. You are putting too much emphasis on the size, we have won PL's and a CL without that type of player but you suddenly feel we need to sign Brock Lesnar.

A DM beast isn't going to make Pogba and Herrera into playmaker's, and Schniederlin isn't even good on the ball. Blind behind Pogba and Herrera could maybe do a job in that DM role but I think we'd both agree the lack of pace and mobility could be an issue, are you suggesting playing Blind instead of Herrera and then some clogger behind them?

 

[devilish]

The most important asset is for them to be good on the ball once they win it, otherwise you have a Fellaini situation. you mention Pogba playing his natural game but he never will with a pure DM as he'll constantly be forced to come and get the ball deep. You are putting too much emphasis on the size, we have won PL's and a CL without that type of player but you suddenly feel we need to sign Brock Lesnar.

A DM beast isn't going to make Pogba and Herrera into playmaker's, and Schniederlin isn't even good on the ball. Blind behind Pogba and Herrera could maybe do a job in that DM role but I think we'd both agree the lack of pace and mobility could be an issue, are you suggesting playing Blind instead of Herrera and then some clogger behind them?

Not really, else we end up with a Blind or some other wuss we've tried in that role who failed miserably forcing us to use Fellaini again.

The most important thing is that he's got a strong physical frame, great defensive discipline and positioning. He also need to understand and embrae his passing ability. If he's a great passer of the ball, then by all means, he should give those elegant Carrickesque/Beckhamesque passes. If its not the case then he should keep it simple and release the ball as quickly and as safely as possible. Other players like Blind, Herrera and Pogba should know what to do with it.

 

[Devil may care]

Not really, else we end up with a Blind or some other wuss we've tried in that role who failed miserably forcing us to use Fellaini again.

The most important thing is that he's got a strong physical frame, great defensive discipline and positioning. He also need to understand and embrae his passing ability. If he's a great passer of the ball, then by all means, he should give those elegant Carrickesque/Beckhamesque passes. If its not the case then he should keep it simple and release the ball as quickly and as safely as possible. Other players like Blind, Herrera and Pogba should know what to do with it.

You are dug in on this size thing, sacrificing quality on the ball for a lug is not the way to build a functioning team. If he's not capable of playing through the lines then he's pointless, we want Herrera and Pogba to be able to play their natural games, which they can't if they are froced to come back and get the ball from 5 yards off the back 4 all of the time, I mean the player you are describing is basically a smarter, more mobile Fellaini, that should be the bottom level of how United think.

 

[devilish]

You are dug in on this size thing, sacrificing quality on the ball for a lug is not the way to build a functioning team. If he's not capable of playing through the lines then he's pointless, we want Herrera and Pogba to be able to play their natural games, which they can't if they are froced to come back and get the ball from 5 yards off the back 4 all of the time, I mean the player you are describing is basically a smarter, more mobile Fellaini, that should be the bottom level of how United think.

Its not the size that really matters but the strong frame and attitude. Carrick wasn't a tough guy on the pitch but he was 6ft2, he had a strong frame and he had the attitude not to allow himself to be bullied out of the game.The likes Roy Keane and Gennaro Gattuso weren't 6 footers but could eat our midfield for breakfast. Ideally every single player you have would know how to pass the ball like Beckham. However that's unrealistic in a DM. All we need is someone with great positioning and defensive discipline who pass the ball quickly to the correct channels. If we bring someone like Ince, Butt and Makalele then that would be enough.

When AC Milan schooled us back in 2009, we had as much talent in midfield as they did Scholes could match Kaka, Giggs and Ronaldo were as good if not better then Ambrosini and Seedorf. Pirlo was better then Carrick but the gap wasn't as big as one may think. What made the difference was Gattuso. AC Milan could disrupt our game while we couldn't disrupt theirs. No one accused Gattuso of disrupting AC Milan game back then, quite the contrary. He kept Scholes in his pockets while Fletcher ran after Kaka like some enthusiastic kid in search of a signature.

 

[Devil may care]

Its not the size that really matters but the strong frame and attitude. Carrick wasn't a tough guy on the pitch but he was 6ft2, he had a strong frame and he had the attitude not to allow himself to be bullied out of the game.The likes Roy Keane and Gennaro Gattuso weren't 6 footers but could eat our midfield for breakfast. Ideally every single player you have would know how to pass the ball like Beckham. However that's unrealistic in a DM. All we need is someone with great positioning and defensive discipline who pass the ball quickly to the correct channels. If we bring someone like Ince, Butt and Makalele then that would be enough.

When AC Milan schooled us back in 2009, we had nearly as much talented players as they did. Scholes could match Kaka, Giggs and Ronaldo were as good if not better then Ambrosini and Seedorf. Pirlo was better then Carrick but the gap wasn't as big as one may think. What made the difference was Gattuso. AC Milan could disrupt our game while we couldn't disrupt theirs. No one accused Gattuso of disrupting AC Milan game back then, quite the contrary. He kept Scholes in his pockets while Fletcher ran after Kaka like some enthusiastic kid in search of a signature.

Makalele was in a different class to Butt and Ince on the ball, not a Pirlo or Alonso but certainly much more astute in his passing. Who is this player you have in mind btw? I have named options for the way I want the role played, who is the guy you are envisioning being the non ball playing beast of defending? In truth what you describe might as well just be a 3rd CB.

That's one game you keep going back to (It was in 2007 not 2009) as if it represents a definite pattern for how things will go, and football is a contest, sometimes your man gets outplayed by theirs on the day. If you recall we destroyed Milan in the CL in 2009/10 as well by simply putting Park, a journeyman winger, on Pirlo. So basically if we are to go off one performance we just need that kind of squad option to drop in against harder opponents, we don't need them week in and week out.

 

[devilish]

Makalele was in a different class to Butt and Ince on the ball, not a Pirlo or Alonso but certainly much more astute in his passing. Who is this player you have in mind btw? I have named options for the way I want the role played, who is the guy you are envisioning being the non ball playing beast of defending? In truth what you describe might as well just be a 3rd CB.

That's one game you keep going back to (It was in 2007 not 2009) as if it represents a definite pattern for how things will go, and football is a contest, sometimes your man gets outplayed by theirs on the day. If you recall we destroyed Milan in the CL in 2009/10 as well by simply putting Park, a journeyman winger, on Pirlo. So basically if we are to go off one performance we just need that kind of squad option to drop in against harder opponents, we don't need them week in and week out.

I don't watch as much football as I used to, so I can't really tell you this or that player. I can come out with the characteristics that such player needs to have

a- he needs not to be a wuss. If he isn't a battler then at least he has to have the inches and solid frame to compensate to that
b- he needs to have either great positioning or is able to cover plenty of inches of pitch (or a mix of both)
c- he needs to have great defensive discipline ie he doesn't elbow players, he doesn't commit too many late tackles in front of the box, he isn't caught napping or outside of his role too much
d- he needs to understand his limitations. Gattuso was effective because he understood that he can't give those Beckhamesque through balls

PS AC Milan's midfield was instrumental in many league titles, A CL win + 1 WC. That wasn't a fluke. Also note that Park didn't play in that game

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6603095.stm

 

[Devil may care]

I don't watch as much football as I used to, so I can't really tell you this or that player. I can come out with the characteristics that such player needs to have

a- he needs not to be a wuss. If he isn't a battler then at least he has to have the inches and solid frame to compensate to that
b- he needs to have either great positioning or is able to cover plenty of inches of pitch (or a mix of both)
c- he needs to have great defensive discipline ie he doesn't elbow players, he doesn't commit too many late tackles in front of the box, he isn't caught napping or outside of his role too much
d- he needs to understand his limitations. Gattuso was effective because he understood that he can't give those Beckhamesque through balls

I agree on b and c and I'm apathetic as regards a, but d to me d is unacceptable unless you have a playmaker to pair with the limited enforcer, and we don't.

PS AC Milan's midfield was instrumental in many league titles, A CL win + 1 WC. That wasn't a fluke. Also note that Park didn't play in that game

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/6603095.stm

This was my point, we proved we didn't need that type of player to start every week, just a dog soldier to throw on in the occassions it was needed. AC Milan's midfield also had Piro, like I said above our CM's don't balance out, what you're suggesting is buying a player that doesn't compliment the best ones we have.

 

[devilish]

I agree on b and c and I'm apathetic as regards a, but d to me d is unacceptable unless you have a playmaker to pair with the limited enforcer, and we don't.



This was my point, we proved we didn't need that type of player to start every week, just a dog soldier to throw on in the occassions it was needed. AC Milan's midfield also had Piro, like I said above our CM's don't balance out, what you're suggesting is buying a player that doesn't compliment the best ones we have.

Every player needs to understand his limitations. Scholes would have costed us hundreds of games if he decided to commit himself in tackles inside the box or just outside the box (Phil Nev springs to mind) because he was basically shite in them. A conventional defensive midfielder can rarely pass the ball like Carrick does. He must therefore understand not to attempt those hollywood style passes or else he risk

You said that Park played in that game and he didn't. But that's irrelevant to the discussion. In my opinion a top quality DM who knows his limits and plays according to his strengths is nearly always needed as it. The reason is that it allow others to focus on their game rather then have to go deep and win the ball themselves. Gattuso played week in week out in a side that won CLs, league titles and WCs. Now if Mata, Blind and co cant cover the playmaker role then they should be sold to make space for others. Its evident that they cant cover the DM role either and we've got enough box to box players with Herrera, Pogba and Schneiderlin.

 

[Devil may care]

Every player needs to understand his limitations. Scholes would have costed us hundreds of games if he decided to commit himself in tackles inside the box or just outside the box (Phil Nev springs to mind) because he was basically shite in them. A conventional defensive midfielder can rarely pass the ball like Carrick does. He must therefore understand not to attempt those hollywood style passes or else he risk

There's a difference between understanding your limitations and just being flat out limited.

You said that Park played in that game and he didn't. But that's irrelevant to the discussion. In my opinion a top quality DM who knows his limits and plays according to his strengths is nearly always needed as it. The reason is that it allow others to focus on their game rather then have to go deep and win the ball themselves. Gattuso played week in week out in a side that won CLs, league titles and WCs. Now if Mata, Blind and co cant cover the playmaker role then they should be sold to make space for others. Its evident that they cant cover the DM role either and we've got enough box to box players with Herrera, Pogba and Schneiderlin.

No, I said Park played in the 2009 game that we won, you had the wrong games where they beat us, those were in 2007. My point was we didn't play that negative shit all the time, we just carried a clogger in the squad to drop in when trequired, the rest of the time we played our more talented players, you seem to want us to use up a spot on a clogger week in and week out. Again Gattuso had Pirlo, the idea that to be successful you have to have a talentless cruncher with your playmaker is so linear , Herrera has great workrate and defensive contribution, if we get a positionally good, mobile #6 to pair with him and Pogba we'll be on the right track.

 

[devilish]

There's a difference between understanding your limitations and just being flat out limited.

Most of SAF's midfielders where flat out limited. Butt, Fletcher, Cleverley and Phil Nev comes to mind. Incey was an upgrade on all of them but he was hardly a great passer of the ball and Keane's passing was nowhere near to that of Carrick and Scholes either. SAF also developed a tendency of buying defensive wingers who provided little more then workrate. Players like Park and Fortune for example were quite popular in the team while Valencia was all pace, workrate, power and a good cross.

No, I said Park played in the 2009 game that we won, you had the wrong games where they beat us, those were in 2007. My point was we didn't play that negative shit all the time, we just carried a clogger in the squad to drop in when trequired, the rest of the time we played our more talented players, you seem to want us to use up a spot on a clogger week in and week out. Again Gattuso had Pirlo, the idea that to be successful you have to have a talentless cruncher with your playmaker is so linear , Herrera has great workrate and defensive contribution, if we get a positionally good, mobile #6 to pair with him and Pogba we'll be on the right track.

By 2010 AC Milan was already in steady decline. Kaka was gone, Seedorf was 34 years old and Ambrosini's career was already plagued with injuries which made him lose some of his pace. Gattuso didn't play in either games hence we could dominate them quite easily. In few words we outsmarted them in the same way they outsmarted us 3 years before ie by playing 3 hardworking midfielders (a 5 men CM with Valencia, Fletcher and Park in it + a hardworking Rooney upfront) against their more talented but less mobile midfield/forward line (Ronaldinho, Abate/Beckham, Ambrosini, Pirlo, Huntelaar and Boriello)

Herrera is not a DM. He simply lacks the strength, the defensive discipline and the positioning to play in that role. We've got too many box to box players in this team. Schneiderlin, Herrera, Pogba etc. Blind can play as a deep lying playmaker however he's no DM either

 

[Devil may care]

Most of SAF's midfielders where flat out limited. Butt, Fletcher, Cleverley and Phil Nev comes to mind. Incey was an upgrade on all of them but he was hardly a great passer of the ball and Keane's passing was nowhere near to that of Carrick and Scholes either. SAF also developed a tendency of buying defensive wingers who provided little more then workrate. Players like Park and Fortune for example were quite popular in the team while Valencia was all pace, workrate, power and a good cross.

Yes and I personally hated the direction we went in after we sold Ronaldo.

By 2010 AC Milan was already in steady decline. Kaka was gone, Seedorf was 34 years old and Ambrosini's career was already plagued with injuries which made him lose some of his pace. Gattuso didn't play in either games hence we could dominate them quite easily. In few words we outsmarted them in the same way they outsmarted us 3 years before ie by playing 3 hardworking midfielders (a 5 men CM with Valencia, Fletcher and Park in it + a hardworking Rooney upfront) against their more talented but less mobile midfield/forward line (Ronaldinho, Abate/Beckham, Ambrosini, Pirlo, Huntelaar and Boriello)

My point was merely that we didn't need to do that every game, you want us to add that type of thing as a regular.

Herrera is not a DM. He simply lacks the strength, the defensive discipline and the positioning to play in that role. We've got too many box to box players in this team. Schneiderlin, Herrera, Pogba etc. Blind can play as a deep lying playmaker however he's no DM either

I never said Herrera was a DM, you seem to see that term as a talent free smash merchant. Herrera works hard defensively, if we pair him with a smart, defensively disciplined #6 we'll be good, you seem to feel we have to carry a player that isn't a footballer to the point you'd get rid of our better players to fit this clogger in at all costs.

Pogba---Herrera
-------Weigl

Would be ideal IMO.

 

[Nostradamus]

Pogba---Herrera
-------Weigl

Would be ideal IMO.

There is absolutely zero chance to get Weigl in the near future though.

 

[Jimmy Skitz]

Will Hughes at Derby was a name that always used to be bandied about as the 'next Carrick'.

Seems to have gone a bit quiet on him. I see he's still only 21 though.

Will Hughes is an overrated sack of shite if he was half as good as Derby fans say he is someone would have bought him a long long time ago.

As for the Drinkwater mentions, I'm a rare breed amongst Leicester fans in that I don't buy totally into the hype of Drinkwater, he is clearly a talented passer but he has a tendency to be crab man passer, I also hold him partly to blame for Vardy's slump, last year our quick counters were based on short sharp passing and running at defenders, this year he has been lumping it pretty aimlessly all too often giving Vardy little chance to do anything with the "pass", its all the more frustrating as when he gets the ball down and plays we have far more success than the media narrative would allow you to believe

 

[devilish]

Yes and I personally hated the direction we went in after we sold Ronaldo.

I hated it too but that's not the argument. We always had hardworking/defensive minded players in the team whether SAF wants to admit it or not. The double double side was well stocked with them. Bruce, Pally, Ince even Keane were hardly magnificent passers of the ball, at least not as Scholes or Carrick were. The magnificent treble side had either Butt or Keane playing week in week out and the 3rd CL team had players like Park and Fletcher as regular players. Its all about creating balance. You won't win with 11 Ronaldos or Scholes in the team as much as we won't win with 11 Makalele or Gattuso either.

My point was merely that we didn't need to do that every game, you want us to add that type of thing as a regular.

We'll probably wont need a DM against the small clubs whose plan is to sit deep for the entire 90 minutes. However we will need them more then you think. A top quality DM will allow the attacking minded players to focus in their game. In prime Keane's time Scholes was literally a sort of 3rd striker as he kept infiltrating in the opponent's defense scoring goals. That's how effective a top quality DM can be.

I never said Herrera was a DM, you seem to see that term as a talent free smash merchant. Herrera works hard defensively, if we pair him with a smart, defensively disciplined #6 we'll be good, you seem to feel we have to carry a player that isn't a footballer to the point you'd get rid of our better players to fit this clogger in at all costs.

Pogba---Herrera
-------Weigl

Would be ideal IMO.

I haven't seen enough of Weigl to comment, however what I can say is that I beleive we've got enough box to box players as it is. In my opinion we should add a top quality DM which in turn would allow us to play Schneiderlin, Blind, Pogba and Herrera in their natural role. Most of these players played their best games with a DM at their side, whether its Wanyama, Javi Martinez/Iturraspe, Khedira/Vidal etc. Let us try to emulate that rather then totally reinventing the wheel.

 

[Devil may care]

There is absolutely zero chance to get Weigl in the near future though.

How do you figure that? Offer Dortmund £60M for him and you get him IMO.

I hated it too but that's not the argument. We always had hardworking/defensive minded players in the team whether SAF wants to admit it or not. The double double side was well stocked with them. Bruce, Pally, Ince even Keane were hardly magnificent passers of the ball, at least not as Scholes or Carrick were. The magnificent treble side had either Butt or Keane playing week in week out and the 3rd CL team had players like Park and Fletcher as regular players. Its all about creating balance. You won't win with 11 Ronaldos or Scholes in the team as much as we won't win with 11 Makalele or Gattuso either.

Roy Keane was a very good user of the ball, he might not have swept it around like Scholes but he wasn't some troglodyte that could only shuttle it 5 yards. the other thing to take into is that football has changed, for intance we got schooled agaisnt sides without these cloggers in Europe when Fergie made the change to so many techncially average workhorses.

We'll probably wont need a DM against the small clubs whose plan is to sit deep for the entire 90 minutes. However we will need them more then you think. A top quality DM will allow the attacking minded players to focus in their game. In prime Keane's time Scholes was literally a sort of 3rd striker as he kept infiltrating in the opponent's defense scoring goals. That's how effective a top quality DM can be.

Scholes was able to do that because Keane could play through the lines, the issue that has us going around in circles here is so acute. We both agree we need a holding player who's excellent defensively, the only difference is I feel he needs to be able to do more on the ball, where as you seem content with a passing scrub who will make Herrera and Pogba less effective as they'll have to come deep all the time to get it off this DM.

I haven't seen enough of Weigl to comment, however what I can say is that I beleive we've got enough box to box players as it is. In my opinion we should add a top quality DM which in turn would allow us to play Schneiderlin, Blind, Pogba and Herrera in their natural role. Most of these players played their best games with a DM at their side, whether its Wanyama, Javi Martinez/Iturraspe, Khedira/Vidal etc. Let us try to emulate that rather then totally reinventing the wheel.

Weigl isn't a box to box player, he's preetty much a Carrick/Busquets type of DM, he's 6'3 and mobile. You've started throwing in Blind and Schneiderlin and I don't get that, for starters the latter isn't good enough and all he has to offer is workrate, he's pretty much your clogger without the discipline, he offers nothing on the ball so playing him and a clogger would be horrid. Blind also has operated as a #6, he's not a #8 so I don't see how he'd benefit from having a clogger in the role he's played in at Ajax. Javi Martinez is a good passer and complimented Herrera well because he could get the ball to him as well as winning it, Vidal is the best all rounder of the last decade so not easily replicatable, Khedira always needed a playmaker next to him, and we don't have one so he's not applicable.

You seem like you think this would work.

Pogba---Herrera
----Drinkwater

It wouldn't.

 

[golden_blunder]

Wilshire anyone?

 

[bucky]

Jean Michael Seri could be a good choice. Not sure how talented he is, but he looks good. @JPRouve what do you think of him?

 

[JPRouve]

Jean Michael Seri could be a good choice. Not sure how talented he is, but he looks good. @JPRouve what do you think of him?

He is good but he is more box to box than anything else and I'm not sure if he can elevate his game to the next level.

 

[bucky]

He is good but he is more box to box than anything else and I'm not sure if he can elevate his game to the next level.

Yeah, that would be my concern as well.

 

[United Pro]

He is good but he is more box to box than anything else and I'm not sure if he can elevate his game to the next level.

How would you rate other young CM's in Ligue 1 like: Tolisso, Koziello, Cyprien and Sanson?

 

[JPRouve]

How would you rate other young CM's in Ligue 1 like: Tolisso, Koziello, Cyprien and Sanson?

Tolisso and Koziello are very talented and already experienced but I don't know what are their best roles which is problematic. I don't watch Ligue 2 often so I'm not used to Cyprien but since he joined Nice, he has been as good as the hype around him suggested, he could be a very good #8 and Sanson has talent but I believe that he won't make it at the top level.

That's only how I see it today, my opinion could change by the end of the season.

 

[Devil may care]

Wouldn't be my first choice but I could see Jose going for this guy, I think he'd be close to what you want @devilish

 

[United Pro]

Tolisso and Koziello are very talented and already experienced but I don't know what are their best roles which is problematic. I don't watch Ligue 2 often so I'm not used to Cyprien but since he joined Nice, he has been as good as the hype around him suggested, he could be a very good #8 and Sanson has talent but I believe that he won't make it at the top level.

That's only how I see it today, my opinion could change by the end of the season.

I was especially impressed with Koziello, from the little I've seen of him. He's like a hybrid of Scholes and Veratti. Though he's very lightweight, so he'll definitively need to hit the gym in order to take his game to the next level.